I love no sparge brewing...

Baron ken said:

I noticed this yesterday. Of the few AG batches I've done, they were all 1.25 qts/lb or less. Oct 18 I got 72% eff. @ 1.23 qts/lb and yesterday, Oct 25, I got 79% eff. @ 1.5 qts/lb.

I had never 'seen' a dough ball before yesterday's brew (yes, there were alot and I broke them up :cross, so I'm guessing that I probably just plain missed them when I was using a thicker mash.

I'm planning to get a pump and basically have the same set up as you except I'll be using a keggle for the BK (for 10 gal batches). Thanks for all the info.

Click to expand...

Sweet, nice to know I'm not the only one who had that experience. :rockin:

I have a 15 gal kettle for 10 gallon batches, I bought a weldless fitting kit for it too but I'm thinking of putting a Blingmann 20 on my Xmas wishlist instead.

Did you ever get pics of the inside of your cooler and sparge arm?

OK OK here are the pics.

Hose barb on the top of the cooler lid:



Hose barb under the cooler lid:



Sparge "arm" (3' of 3/8" ID hose with holes drilled in it with a barb and plug in the end):

LOL, I had read where you mentioned PVC before and was thinking you had a PVC pipe manifold type thing, so I was curious to see how you implemented it. I may not go to the trouble of an actual PVC pipe manifold since your tubing version works so well!

Thanks.

Saccharomyces said:

<snip> Dumped all 8.25 gal of water into the kettle, added my salts per the water adjustment spreadsheet assuming 8.25 gal of mash volume, and loaded up 11# of grain into my mash tun. Goal is to have 7 gal pre-boil, assuming .125 gal per # of absorption. BeerSmith says with that much water to heat to 162*F so I heated to 161*F while setting up, measuring, and crushing grain. Once I hit my strike temp I pumped all the water into the cooler and then started recirculating. <snip>

Click to expand...

You say you dumped all the water to the MLT, but I'm guessing not all since you are recirculating to the BK and you say later that you balance the in/outflows so the BK doesn't drain too quickly. Or do you mean you dump it all to the MLT for dough-in, then let some drain back to the BK so you can start recirculating?

How much liquid is in the BK during recirc? 2 gallons? more? less? does it matter as long as there is some in there?

I read an article in this months BYO where a guy had a counter top AG system similar to this. It got me thinking about this approach.

In the same article the guy mentioned that doing the no-sparge method seemed to greatly improve the quality of his brews. So I have been looking at pumps and think I might go this route.

MgMt_Home_Brew said:

I read an article in this months BYO where a guy had a counter top AG system similar to this. It got me thinking about this approach.

Click to expand...

That guy is me.

Here's the thread that started it all. Lots more detail than the BYO article.

jkarp said:

That guy is me.

Here's the thread that started it all. Lots more detail than the BYO article.

Click to expand...

Oh that's awesome, that article was great! So you really think that the quality of your brews made a jump after switching to this process?

lustreking said:

I'd avoid doing that, too. I set a better bottle a little too close to my burner once, and now it's less than a 6 gallon bottle.

Click to expand...

NO NO! I warped the bottom of a better bottle just using the hot water from my tap (I keep at 142F).

MgMt_Home_Brew said:

Oh that's awesome, that article was great! So you really think that the quality of your brews made a jump after switching to this process?

Click to expand...

No sparge? For me, ABSOLUTELY. It's obvious to point out though that a LOT of great beers get made with traditional batch and fly sparges. I've just found a process that works incredibly well for me and reformulating my recipes to expect 70% efficiency instead of 80% meant only a few cents more in grain.

Sacc - Two quick questions...
Have you tried brewing 10 gallons with this set up, yet?
Does your sparge "arm" just lay on top of the grain bed to distribute the circulating wort?

Baron ken said:

How much liquid is in the BK during recirc? 2 gallons? more? less? does it matter as long as there is some in there?

Click to expand...

Meh, something like that. Doesn't really matter as long as the kettle doesn't run dry causing the pump to lose prime.

If your MLT is big enough it helps to pump all the water up there because it just makes it that much easier to stir the mash. Then you can start running off to the kettle and begin recirculating. Doesn't really matter since all the liquid gets recirculated anyway.

claude505 said:

Sacc - Two quick questions...
Have you tried brewing 10 gallons with this set up, yet?
Does your sparge "arm" just lay on top of the grain bed to distribute the circulating wort?

Click to expand...

I haven't converted my 15 gallon kettle and don't plan to since I plan on upgrading to a Blingmann 20 soon. When I do that, I will be doing 10 gallon no-sparge batches and using the 10 gallon kettle in the pics to runoff and boil a 5 gallon partigyle beer. 15 gallons from every brew day, I'll be the most popular guy in the neighborhood...

The "sparge arm" is just to prevent disturbing the grain bed, doesn't really matter how you do it. I went with the tubing because it's easier than dealing with a manifold, and it does the job just as well.

jkarp said:

Here's the thread that started it all. Lots more detail than the BYO article.

Click to expand...

As I mentioned a few posts back, that system was the inspiration for this one, minus the automated part, I had already done my first no-sparge brew when I read the BYO issue and recognized the setup in there.

I haven't converted my 15 gallon kettle and don't plan to since I plan on upgrading to a Blingmann 20 soon

Click to expand...

what is this Blingmann 20?

jimba009 said:

what is this Blingmann 20?

Click to expand...

The creme de la creme of brew pots.

http://www.blichmannengineering.com/boilermaker/boilermaker.html

Better sight glass, better heat retention, better valve, and almost no dead loss vs. the ~3 quarts of dead loss I have in my 10 gallon kettle which costs me 7% in brewhouse efficiency.

Speaking of efficiency, eff. to kettle seems to be around 72% and brewhouse is around 66%, consistently with 10-12# of grain. The efficiency dropoff is about 1% for every additional pound of grain over 10# so planning is very simple. This is very close to what jkarp is seeing on his countertop system.

Because recirculation of the mash seems to overcome having a suboptimal crush, I would not be surprised if some folks actually achieve BETTER yield with this setup than they get by doing a double batch sparge.

So, how big of a cooler do you have and how many lbs can it handle? How many pounds of malt do you think you'll need for your partigyle set up?

I just did my first all grain batch this past Sunday. I found (accidentally, but luckily) that ~23 lbs is about the max for my system. (7.5 gallons + 23lbs = one FULL cooler - My MT is a 10gal Rubbermaid drink cooler). I guess I need to accept this as a limit to my brewery.

I am definitely intrigued by this method. Lifting 70+ lbs of hot water to the necessary height for the sparge gets a little sketchy. And, I'm really only a few fittings and a pump away.

claude505 said:

So, how big of a cooler do you have and how many lbs can it handle? How many pounds of malt do you think you'll need for your partigyle set up?

Click to expand...

My cooler is a Coleman Xtreme 70. It can mash up to 35 pounds of grain which is enough for 10 gallons of a 1.100 beer if fly sparging.

I will have to post pics of the whole system in operation, but the general idea is:

- Mash in the main mash in the 70qt MLT
- Mash in a mini-mash in my 5 gallon cooler which will be used to "cap" the partigyle brew
- Recirc during the mash and runoff to the 20 gallon kettle
- Heat 6.5 gallons of water in the 10 gallon kettle and pump it over to the MLT for second runnings
- Runoff the second runnings through the 5 gallon cooler and runoff the 5 gallon cooler into the 10 gallon pot.

I have done this once before and it worked wonderfully. Porters and stouts make great partigyle beers because you can mash a few pounds of crystal and specialty grains along with a pound or two of two-row to boost the gravity of the second runnings... the dark grain will cover up what might otherwise be minor flaws in flavor or color you would notice in a paler partigyle brew.

Saccharomyces said:

My cooler is a Coleman Xtreme 70. It can mash up to 35 pounds of grain which is enough for 10 gallons of a 1.100 beer if fly sparging.

I will have to post pics of the whole system in operation, but the general idea is:

- Mash in the main mash in the 70qt MLT
- Mash in a mini-mash in my 5 gallon cooler which will be used to "cap" the partigyle brew
- Recirc during the mash and runoff to the 20 gallon kettle
- Heat 6.5 gallons of water in the 10 gallon kettle and pump it over to the MLT for second runnings
- Runoff the second runnings through the 5 gallon cooler and runoff the 5 gallon cooler into the 10 gallon pot.

I have done this once before and it worked wonderfully. Porters and stouts make great partigyle beers because you can mash a few pounds of crystal and specialty grains along with a pound or two of two-row to boost the gravity of the second runnings... the dark grain will cover up what might otherwise be minor flaws in flavor or color you would notice in a paler partigyle brew.

Click to expand...

That's awesome. Thanks for the run down. I think if I ever made that kind of step up, I would have to get another brewer to join me. I don't think I could drink that much!

claude505 said:

That's awesome. Thanks for the run down. I think if I ever made that kind of step up, I would have to get another brewer to join me. I don't think I could drink that much!

Click to expand...

Between friends, brew gatherings and competitions, I give away more than I drink by miles. I'm down to 6 kegs at the moment so I'm gonna be putting about 30 gallons through this system in November to catch up!

It looks like you have quite a bit of scorching going on in the pot. The flat bottom and direct heat seems to make for problems trying to brew a pale or pils style brew.

What do you do when you first dough in and run the pump? Do you put the boiler pot lid return line in the mashtun to get any bits of grist cleared from the plumbing and the liquor running clear first before putting it onto the pot?

OLDBREW said:

It looks like you have quite a bit of scorching going on in the pot. The flat bottom and direct heat seems to make for problems trying to brew a pale or pils style brew.

What do you do when you first dough in and run the pump? Do you put the boiler pot lid return line in the mashtun to get any bits of grist cleared from the plumbing and the liquor running clear first before putting it onto the pot?

Click to expand...

He's gravity draining from the MLT to BK, so he could vorlauf into a pitcher until clear runnings, then drain into the BK, but I'm not sure if he vorlaufs (I know that he said that after it recirculates a while it clears up).

OLDBREW said:

It looks like you have quite a bit of scorching going on in the pot. The flat bottom and direct heat seems to make for problems trying to brew a pale or pils style brew.

Click to expand...

There is a pretty significant buildup of stuff on the bottom, like a well used cast iron skillet, but this is an aluminum pot so I don't want to clean it off and risk stripping off the protective oxide layer. I don't have any problems with scorching or darkening. My pot has looked like this since the second batch I brewed in it.

What do you do when you first dough in and run the pump? Do you put the boiler pot lid return line in the mashtun to get any bits of grist cleared from the plumbing and the liquor running clear first before putting it onto the pot?

Click to expand...

I just start recirculating through the pot, the wort cleans up nicely. With the recirculation most of the protein break ends up in the mash tun rather than in the kettle so I have very little hot break in the kettle after transferring to the fermenter.

I'm not sure my lines are long enough but if they are I could try recirculating through the MLT and see how that works.

Man I'm pretty surprised at your efficiency. Grain is cheap and like you said I'd love to cut an hour or so off my brew day.

Wouldn't this also, theoretically, produce a slightly higher quality wort?

Baron ken said:

He's gravity draining from the MLT to BK, so he could vorlauf into a pitcher until clear runnings, then drain into the BK, but I'm not sure if he vorlaufs (I know that he said that after it recirculates a while it clears up).

Click to expand...

Gottcha! So he just needs to vorlauf the mash tun runoff first, to make sure no grist particles get into the boil kettle before sticking the lid on the kettle and running the pump.

My boiler gets beer stone build up but never scorching or carmelization on the pot bottom from boils.

That layer normally comes from trying to use direct heat to the thick mash liquor. That is one of the reasons why the herms systems were developed and took the place of the RMS. The recirculating mash system uses a raised full false bottom in the mashtun, then the liquor was gravity fed to the pump then pumped back over the grainbed. Direct heat was use to maintain or boost mash temps. A very low heat setting had to be used to keep from scorching the liquor, but even then the process would add color to the wort.

CharlosCarlies said:

Man I'm pretty surprised at your efficiency. Grain is cheap and like you said I'd love to cut an hour or so off my brew day.

Click to expand...

Recirculation and loading up the whole volume at once is the key, because the only extract that doesn't get into the kettle is in the grain absorption and dead loss. When most folks think of no-sparge they think of first runnings where you only get half the sugars or so. Isn't the case here. In fact, from my yield I can work backwards and determine exactly what my grain absorption rate is, something that I still need to do.

Wouldn't this also, theoretically, produce a slightly higher quality wort?

Click to expand...

That's the claim. Certainly gets rid of issues with pH and over
extraction you can run into with sparging since the whole kit-n-kaboodle is at mash pH and temps.

OLDBREW said:

That layer normally comes from trying to use direct heat to the thick mash liquor. That is one of the reasons why the herms systems were developed and took the place of the RMS. The recirculating mash system uses a raised full false bottom in the mashtun, then the liquor was gravity fed to the pump then pumped back over the grainbed. Direct heat was use to maintain or boost mash temps. A very low heat setting had to be used to keep from scorching the liquor, but even then the process would add color to the wort.

Click to expand...

Yeah I never would direct fire a mash for exactly this reason. In the no-sparge recirculation the gravity is pre-boil gravity of around 1.050 or so. No chance of scorching here.

Saccharomyces said:

In fact, from my yield I can work backwards and determine exactly what my grain absorption rate is, something that I still need to do.

Click to expand...

That's still my minor challenge. I'm quickly learning absorption isn't a fixed value. I'd been brewing a lot of two-row beers and was seeing .1 gal/lb pretty consistently. Brewed up Shiver me Bitters last, which is primarily MO and Vienna, and it caught me off guard with .15 gal/lb. For small batch brewers, that can be a big difference. I buy all my grain from the same LHBS and use the same mill so the crush isn't different.

More English beers on deck so it'll be interesting to see the absorption data...

Saccharomyces,
You brewing again soon in November? I'd like to come and see your setup soon.

Chris

I read through this thread last night and saw that someone touched on this point once but it didn't seem to get much attention. My main concern with the no-chill method is that you don't get enough break material out of solution. I actually like getting some trub into the fermenter (after it's been broken out) since the yeast respond favorably to it. But it seems like not breaking it out of solution would lead to clarity and oxidation issues down the road. Maybe those are theoretical problems that don't actually happen in practice so I'd be curious to hear from people who use the no-chill method what their experience has been.

explosive,

You might want to check this thread out: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/exploring-no-chill-brewing-117111/

jkarp said:

Brewed up Shiver me Bitters last, which is primarily MO and Vienna, and it caught me off guard with .15 gal/lb. For small batch brewers, that can be a big difference. I buy all my grain from the same LHBS and use the same mill so the crush isn't different.

More English beers on deck so it'll be interesting to see the absorption data...

Click to expand...

Yeah, Shiver me Bitters was low on the efficiency by a few points here too, so it isn't just you.

Any follow up?

I just did your method except for the no chill. Brewed up 10 gallon batch of Vienna Lager. Very clear wort and it was dead simple to maintain the pump level and runoff. A site glass make this very easy.

Now that I prototyped it with the gas burner I've got to get the electric set up and run with it.

Planning on brewing on the rig again Saturday which will be the 4th no-sparge. I am planning on adding an electric RIMS heater to the setup to maintain temps, a friend has a spare PID controller and thermocouple he isn't using so I just need to get the other parts scraped together for it. The heater will go between the pump and MLT otherwise the flow will remain unchanged.

Blichmann 20 is on order and should be here in a couple of weeks. I already got in the parts from McMaster for an all-stainless nipple-nipple connection through the lid, I just need to drill the lid with my step bit when it gets here and I'll be all set. The 10 gallon kettle will become my HLT and partigyle boil kettle. The longer sight glass and better insulating of the Blichmann should definitely improve on this setup.

Was able to brew twice this weeking while working at the LHBS with this method. It rulez.

I just order up the Parts to convert to this type of setup. Im tierd of lifting and dumping boiling water for infusion mash's and spilling on me or the ground. Plus I'm hoping to cut 45 mins to a 1 hour off my brew day.

I was looking at building a RIMS system but this fits the bill for me. Just what i need a compact system that i can tuck away in a corner some where. Ill i need to add is a march pump, hose and couplings, but I added a Blingman 10gal as a early xmas gift to myself.

About how much wort are you losing to dead space in the lines and pump are you getting Saccharomyces?

Got my pump and did a quick test to see how it works. Used an autosiphon to get it primed which wasn't working too well until I put a valve on the pump output (would autosiphon to fill the pump head, but before I could turn on the pump it would drain out...valve fixed that problem). I think in my actual brewing setup, the pump will be able to be gravity fed to get it primed, we'll see.

I think this pump is going to be a great addition to my brewing gear!

Saccharomyces said:

Planning on brewing on the rig again Saturday which will be the 4th no-sparge. I am planning on adding an electric RIMS heater to the setup to maintain temps, a friend has a spare PID controller and thermocouple he isn't using so I just need to get the other parts scraped together for it. The heater will go between the pump and MLT otherwise the flow will remain unchanged.

Click to expand...

Bear with me, i'm a must see it to understand it guy. Any pics of this or a similar heater. Could the same thing be accomplished with an element in the hlt/bk, and if so could you still use the burner for boiling and heating strike water(way faster with propane).

And you must have dead loss in the hlt when you pump in the strike water, yet when you start re-circulating the water, it has to be back in the equation, correct?

I just got a pump and this is a method i certainly want to try, I like the idea of it still being portable and relatively simple.

One more question, can we see a pic of the inside of your cooler, is the return hose connected to a sparge type arm, or just loose.

ZackWylde said:

About how much wort are you losing to dead space in the lines and pump are you getting Saccharomyces?

Click to expand...

Lines and pump combined, loss is about a pint.

Baron ken said:

Used an autosiphon to get it primed which wasn't working too well until I put a valve on the pump output (would autosiphon to fill the pump head, but before I could turn on the pump it would drain out...valve fixed that problem).

Click to expand...

Yes that's the key. I can gravity prime mine if the toolbox sits above the ground, just hold the output hose down at ground level to drain into a bucket and shut the valve at the pump output. Then I can connect the output hose to the MLT and open the valve. The key with the March to not losing prime is to keep the pump running even if the valve is closed. Because it's magnetically coupled it does not cause a problem for the pump to run this way.

wildwest450 said:

Bear with me, i'm a must see it to understand it guy. Any pics of this or a similar heater. Could the same thing be accomplished with an element in the hlt/bk, and if so could you still use the burner for boiling and heating strike water(way faster with propane).

Click to expand...

You could go with a setup like jkarp's where there is an electric heater in the kettle. The RIMS heater I'm thinking of building is this one, going off of lamarguy's parts list except for the (hopefully) thermocouple, PID controller, and SSR which a friend already has on hand.

And you must have dead loss in the hlt when you pump in the strike water, yet when you start re-circulating the water, it has to be back in the equation, correct?

Click to expand...

Yes, the dead loss ends up not mattering since it all gets recirculated/mixed and the MLT drains into the kettle pre-boil.

One more question, can we see a pic of the inside of your cooler, is the return hose connected to a sparge type arm, or just loose.

Click to expand...

Check post #83 for the pic, the hose is the sparge arm which gets attached to the nipple on the inside of the cooler during recirculation. It clogs up a bit with grain but doesn't cause a problem, the idea is just to prevent the return flow from stirring up the grain bed. The more adventuresome folks could build a proper sparge arm... I just didn't see the need.

Saccharomyces said:

Check post #83 for the pic, the hose is the sparge arm which gets attached to the nipple on the inside of the cooler during recirculation. It clogs up a bit with grain but doesn't cause a problem, the idea is just to prevent the return flow from stirring up the grain bed. The more adventuresome folks could build a proper sparge arm... I just didn't see the need.

Click to expand...

Oops, I missed that pic, thanks for the info! I'm off to mcmaster carr to spend some loot on fittings.