Rye Pale Ale recipe critique

I know, another recipe critique, but its the first recipe I've made from scratch and I'd like to see what you guys think. I know it will taste good, but I want to know how you think it will do in competition in the american pale ale category:

6 gallon batch
90 min. boil
1.057 estimated OG
37.1 IBU - Rager formula
7.4 SRM

Amount Item Type % or IBU
9 lbs 6.4 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 73.0 %
1 lbs 5.1 oz Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 10.3 %
1 lbs Munich Malt Type II (9.0 SRM) Grain 7.8 %
14.4 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 7.0 %
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 1.9 %
0.70 oz Horizon [12.00%] (60 min) Hops 31.3 IBU
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00%] (10 min) Hops 3.7 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50%] (10 min) Hops 2.1 IBU
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (Dry Hop)
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50%] (0 min)
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00%] (0 min)
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min)
4.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min)
5.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min)
1 Pkgs American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) [Starter 2500 ml]

The formatted full recipe is here -> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1742878/RPA_recipe.htm

thanks in advance

I can't really help with the recipe since I only have all of 4 batches under my belt. But I just want to say hello since I never see people from Atlanta on here.

Where do you get your ingredients? I go to Hop City. I am hoping to do an AG IPA in the next day or two...I just need to put it together.

First, I would definitely up the rye to at least 2.5 pounds. Second, I'd think twice about all that Victory, as its toastiness can fight with the rye's fruity snap. I'd go with about five to eight ounces. Third, I'd up the crystal malt, although some other brewers wouldn't.

Good luck, and let us know what your final recipe is and how it turns out!

GTengineer10 said:

Where do you get your ingredients? I go to Hop City.

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BEGIN RANT
First I'd like to say that in general I support home brew stores and appreciate everything that they do for the hb community. That being said, Hop City is a great place to get those hard to find beers, but they are a beer/wine seller first and a homebrew shop second. The last time I was in there I saw plastic jars of LME open and sitting out on the checkout counter (which explains why the last LME I bought from there smelled awful). I also noticed that their hop pellets are in big glass jars and they pour out however much you need into a ziploc bag ::shudders:: Not to mention that they don't carry White Labs products, only Wyeast liquid yeast and assorted dry yeast. I went in there looking for the White Labs San Francisco Ale strain once, and their explanation of why they don't carry White Labs and only carry Wyeast liquid yeast was "Switch to Wyeast and you'll never go back to White Labs. Its so easy, just smack it and three hours later you have your yeast. No more starters." So basically they are bashing yeast starters so they can sell the only liquid yeast that they carry. While I do like the convenience of the smack pack I think it is crucial to make a starter and pitch a good amount of healthy yeast that has already gone through the growth phase (where most of the byproducts are produced) instead of buying several packages of yeast and pitching from the packages. I did get the Wyeast equivalent of the White Labs yeast I was looking for that day, but the experience made me feel like I was being sold a used car. I will say though that they have a good turnaround on Wyeast packs. All of the Wyeast that I've gotten from there has been very fresh so kudos to them for that.

I once went there to get some priming sugar and asked an employee how much I would need to dissolve in my bottling bucket to get 2.0 volumes of CO2 into 4.2 gallons of beer. His answer was "Well you usually use 5.0 ounces for a 5 gallon batch so just use 4.2 ounces for a 4.2 gallon batch." Looking back, if I used 4.2 ounces of priming sugar I would've ended up with 30% more carbonation than I wanted. I don't mean to be negative. I love Hop City's beer selection, and I know they mean well, but they're not great for homebrew supplies and ingredients, especially considering the other homebrew shops in the area. Maybe its just the "vibe" I get when I'm in there that turns me away...
END RANT

I live downtown, but I go to Brewmaster's Warehouse up in Marietta to get my ingredients. All the guys there are really cool and give good advice. Their hops come in vacuum-sealed vapor barrier 1 ounce bags, they have a nice selection of fresh liquid yeast, and their extract and grains are fresh as well. I think its worth the 20 minute drive. They support the Brewing Network too, which I like.

Teacher said:

First, I would definitely up the rye to at least 2.5 pounds. Second, I'd think twice about all that Victory, as its toastiness can fight with the rye's fruity snap.

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So are you saying that it needs to have a dominant rye characteristic to do well in competition? My first thought was to balance the toastiness and rye so that it wouldn't be overly sweet/fruity for the style. Have you used this much rye in a similar beer style and done well in competition? I don't have much experience with it.

Teacher said:

Third, I'd up the crystal malt, although some other brewers wouldn't.

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Yea, I'm not going to add much more crystal than that. I just want the extra body from it and not the flavor.

I got the vibe that the homebrew stuff is second for them. I feel like if you you are going to ask someone about brewing it needs to be Kraig. The only thing that bothers me is their hop storage. I have gone AG and and have only done a starter once (on yeast that I had washed from a previous batch) so the WYeast smack pack was perfect for me, maybe not forever but so far so good. Also, Hop City is less than a mile from my house so I haven't been able to overcome the convenience and go somewhere else.

I have been meaning to check out Brewmasters Warehouse. I saw on here a while back that people were down on them since I think they couldn't sell to Georgians, but since then people really seem to love them. There is also a place south that I want to check out called Just Brew It. I actually tried to go by there once but they are closed on Mondays. I will probably hit up Brewmasters over the holidays, maybe before my next batch?

Sorry for getting this thread of topic

The recipe looks great, so at this point you're only going to get info from people telling you how to turn YOUR beer into THEIR beer.

As for your competition question, I don't think this will do great in the American Pale Ale category #10A. It won't score badly, but it's not going to win the category and here's why I think so: you're including about 25% of flavorful, characterful malts that will add a lot of malt notes to the beer. If you read the BJCP style guidelines for this category, you'll see that they really deemphasize the malty notes. At the very end it mentions toasty and bready as a complement to hoppy notes.

Also, I've seen it specifically mentioned in other categories (like IPA) that if your beer has a noticeable rye or wheat character, it should be entered in the Specialty category as a Rye IPA.

HOWEVER, I absolutely think you should brew this because it sounds great. I just think that you should submit it to the Specialty as a "Rye Pale Ale."

Sorry, I don't know why this completely skipped my mind (probably because I had IPA on the brain) but you may be able to enter this into American Wheat or Rye, category 6D.

Brew the beer, read the descriptions, enter into categories (multiple if you want):

http://www.bjcp.org/styles04/Category6.php#style6D

kanzimonson said:

you may be able to enter this into American Wheat or Rye, category 6D.

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The style guidelines suggest a distinctive rye character (sometimes using 50% or more of the rye malt in the recipe). It also says it should have a very thick frothy head. I think this beer would fall short of those two things. Most likely I'll enter it in the Specialty Beers category as a Rye Pale Ale. That being said, do you think there will be enough rye character without it being overpowering?

It won't be gross or anything if that's what you're suggesting. As someone else hinted, you could even go with as much as doubling the rye. Go with what you're comfortable with more importantly. I think the victory malt will also add some flavors that will be interpreted as rye-derived so adding more won't be too necessary.

kanzimonson said:

It won't be gross or anything if that's what you're suggesting.

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I don't think it would be gross, just worried about getting a good balance. A noticeable but not overpowering rye character is what I'm going for. I think I will add a small amount of rye and remove a bit of munich.

This one is definitely going in the specialty category as a RPA though unless I find the rye to be overpowering, in which case it will go in the American Wheat or Rye.

Does the overall malt profile of this recipe bolster good head retention, or is that more dependent upon a good process?

I'm trying to remember if rye contributes to head retention... It certainly has some gooey proteins in there but I don't know how they survive in the final beer. Head retention is overrated, IMO.

I think the Munich is fine. In those quantities it's pretty subtle. When I use Munich, I think of it as having maybe 10-25% the effect of a specialty grain, i.e., it takes 4-10 times as much to contribute a really noticeable character that people recognize as Munich.

What I'm trying to say is there's not much point cutting the Munich down without taking it out.

Ok. I'll cut down on the pale malt then. I just want to tune down the OG since it is already a bit on the high side for the style. I'll post the final recipe after the holidays. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll let u know how it turns out.

Update. This was my final recipe. Got gold in Specialty Beer category at the Bluff City Brewers Extravaganza in Memphis. Thanks for the help guys.

9.5 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 76.0 %
1 lbs Munich Malt Type II (10.0 SRM) Grain 8.0 %
1 lbs Rye Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 8.0 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 4.0 %
8.0 oz Victory Malt (28.0 SRM) Grain 4.0 %
1.00 oz Amarillo [8.50%] (60 min) Hops 31.7 IBU
0.45 oz Centennial [10.00%] (25 min) Hops 6.8 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50%] (10 min) Hops 2.1 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50%] (0 min) Hops 0.0 IBU
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00%] (0 min) Hops 0.0 IBU
1.50 oz Cascade [5.50%] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops 0.0 IBU
1 Pkgs Wyeast American Ale II [Starter 2500 ml]

Nice work! Got any tasting notes for us?

I haven't gotten the scoresheets back yet, but I'll give my own opinions.

It was definitely too cloudy. I don't know if this is a result of the Rye Malt or my process, but I will definitely use Irish Moss next time and be more careful when draining the kettle and whirlpooling. I think it was a little too bready as well, I might cut down the Victory or maybe even get rid of it. The American Ale II gives a very distinct ester profile to this beer which is interesting. The beer got better the longer it sat in my fridge, but as a result of that I drank them all haha. They probably would've been perfect with a month or so of age.