A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

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Only you can answer that question. The guidelines in this thread are meant to get you started down the path to better beer. It's strongly implied if not explicitly stated that you must experiment to determine what level of minerals gives you the beer you like best. I can observe that most people like beers made with low mineral water backed up with some chloride. That's the basis for the Primer's recommendation of RO water with a fair amount of calcium chloride supplement.

IMO you should brew your favorite style with the undiluted (pretty soft and low in sulfate) water and then again with diluted water. Pick the one that gives the best beer. Then adjust the calcium chloride addition until you hit your sweet spot.
 
Can anyone smarter then me, tell me if I am wasting my money diluting my water?

In my opinion, this water has fairly low mineralization and does not require any reductions in ionic content by dilution. It should be a fairly good starting point for brewing. Adding more calcium content is a good idea to improve yeast health and flocculation. Adding either chloride or sulfate would be a taste decision left to the brewer.

If you want to have more guidance for water adjustments, use Bru'n Water and review the Water Knowledge page at the Bru'n Water website.
 
Only you can answer that question. The guidelines in this thread are meant to get you started down the path to better beer. It's strongly implied if not explicitly stated that you must experiment to determine what level of minerals gives you the beer you like best. I can observe that most people like beers made with low mineral water backed up with some chloride. That's the basis for the Primer's recommendation of RO water with a fair amount of calcium chloride supplement.

IMO you should brew your favorite style with the undiluted (pretty soft and low in sulfate) water and then again with diluted water. Pick the one that gives the best beer. Then adjust the calcium chloride addition until you hit your sweet spot.

Thanks for the reply. I think am going to do exactly what you said. I tend to gravitate towards soft water beers (pils, kolsch, etc). One of favorite beers to make is a belgian wit. I use a pretty simple grain bill 50% wheat, 50% pils, low ibu, orange, and coriander (I tend to think of wit as a soft water beer). This beer comes out good when I use the soft water suggestion from the first post, with 50% distilled water. The PH is usually around 5.35. I have never made it with 100% tap from this water supply (I moved recently and never adjusted my water at the old place).

I guess I will bottle some from the current keg and make the wit again with all tap water and compare the two.

Thanks again for the all the advice throughout this thread. It has really helped me to get started with adjusting my water.
 
In my opinion, this water has fairly low mineralization and does not require any reductions in ionic content by dilution. It should be a fairly good starting point for brewing. Adding more calcium content is a good idea to improve yeast health and flocculation. Adding either chloride or sulfate would be a taste decision left to the brewer.

If you want to have more guidance for water adjustments, use Bru'n Water and review the Water Knowledge page at the Bru'n Water website.

One of the reasons I posted last night was that it looked like if I could add calcium I could duplicate the same mineral content that Ajdelange suggests in the original post without wasting money on distilled water. How can I add calcium without adding chloride? I have heard that adding chalk is not a good idea.
 
How can I add calcium without adding chloride?

By adding calcium sulfate or calcium lactate or calcium phosphate or... The point is that there has to be some '___ate' in there representing the anion of some acid (which can ever be water: calcium hydroxide)

I have heard that adding chalk is not a good idea.
The acid can be carbonic in which case the 'ate' is bicarbonate or carbonate i.e. you add calcium bicarbonate or calcium carbonate (calcium bicarbonate has to be made from calcium carbonate and CO2 gas). Neither of these is a good idea (especially for light beers), nor is calcium hydroxide because all three contribute to alkalinity which represents the tendency to pull your mash pH too high.

If you use the chloride or sulfate the mash pH won't be affected as strongly (the calcium tends to pull it lower but it takes a lot of calcium to make an appreciable difference) but you'll have to deal with the consequences of higher chloride and/or sulfate levels. Chloride generally does good things to beer (to my taste at least) up to a point. Sulfate also is thought by many to improve beer up to a point but there are also many others who think it is detrimental. I am one of those. I am fascinated by the fact that USEPA limits sulfate in drinking water to 250 mg/L or less because more than that tastes bad while at the same time many brewers would consider that sulfate level to low for their beers.

Starting from low mineral water you should be able to get as much calcium as you need without going over on the chloride.

Be sure not to undershoot on the calcium chloride. Beers can be made with distilled water but tend to be thin bodied without the support of some chloride.
 
By adding calcium sulfate or calcium lactate or calcium phosphate or... The point is that there has to be some '___ate' in there representing the anion of some acid (which can ever be water: calcium hydroxide)


The acid can be carbonic in which case the 'ate' is bicarbonate or carbonate i.e. you add calcium bicarbonate or calcium carbonate (calcium bicarbonate has to be made from calcium carbonate and CO2 gas). Neither of these is a good idea (especially for light beers), nor is calcium hydroxide because all three contribute to alkalinity which represents the tendency to pull your mash pH too high.

If you use the chloride or sulfate the mash pH won't be affected as strongly (the calcium tends to pull it lower but it takes a lot of calcium to make an appreciable difference) but you'll have to deal with the consequences of higher chloride and/or sulfate levels. Chloride generally does good things to beer (to my taste at least) up to a point. Sulfate also is thought by many to improve beer up to a point but there are also many others who think it is detrimental. I am one of those. I am fascinated by the fact that USEPA limits sulfate in drinking water to 250 mg/L or less because more than that tastes bad while at the same time many brewers would consider that sulfate level to low for their beers.

Starting from low mineral water you should be able to get as much calcium as you need without going over on the chloride.

Be sure not to undershoot on the calcium chloride. Beers can be made with distilled water but tend to be thin bodied without the support of some chloride.

Okay, I get it now. I am actually planning on cutting out the distilled water and just adjusting my tap water. I cannot find packaged RO water in my area and i do not have an RO system so that is not an option at this time. I was just worried about 42ppm of chloride compared to the 16 ppm of calcium in my tap water. If I add calcium chloride it seems to increase both of them. This was the reason i was diluting with Distilled. I believe based your orginal discription of "soft water" my chloride is the only mineral with a higher ppm.
 
Be sure not to undershoot on the calcium chloride. Beers can be made with distilled water but tend to be thin bodied without the support of some chloride.

I agree there! I tasted an APA made with straight distilled water with no mineral additions. It was very thin and bland, even though the beer was made with a competent recipe and there were no other brewing faults noted. I tend to like sulfate in my APAs, but I wonder how this beer would have changed with just a calcium chloride addition? I think I'm going to have to try my next APA with only calcium chloride. I can always add sulfate post fermentation if I don't like it.
 
So, as someone who is having an embarrassingly hard time focusing on burying my nose into this thread, and learn better by attempting and having someone tell me what i'm doing right or wrong, would it be best to post a recipe and water additions in this thread or start my own?
 
So, as someone who is having an embarrassingly hard time focusing on burying my nose into this thread, and learn better by attempting and having someone tell me what i'm doing right or wrong, would it be best to post a recipe and water additions in this thread or start my own?

To avoid it getting "lost" and not seen, I'd start a new thread. If you post your water profile, an expert (not me!) could give you some pointers.
 
phoenixs4r said:
So, as someone who is having an embarrassingly hard time focusing on burying my nose into this thread, and learn better by attempting and having someone tell me what i'm doing right or wrong, would it be best to post a recipe and water additions in this thread or start my own?

Post away. You have AJ and MB helping. Take advantage.
 
The Water Panel from NHC 2012 is posted on the "Let's Brew" section of the AHA site under "Homebrewing Seminars". It's a members only resource.

I believe this link will only work if you are logged in. http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/presentations/audio/2012/1616-26 Water Panel.mp3



No, you are not missing anything. It has not, AFAIK, been posted nor do I believe it will be. The company that made the recordings makes money by selling these and I expect they will be offered for sale at some point but I don't know when or where.
 
The Water Panel from NHC 2012 is posted on the "Let's Brew" section of the AHA site under "Homebrewing Seminars". It's a members only resource.

I believe this link will only work if you are logged in. http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/presentations/audio/2012/1616-26 Water Panel.mp3

I'm not a member and it let me download. I listened last night and recommend it to anyone interested in water. It really highlights that the experts aren't in agreement about the subject. Colin's talk is really interesting but if you follow this thread (as in read it and practice it when brewing) AJ sounds like Galileo at the inquistion - the only scientist (with a pH meter instead of a telescope) in a room full of clergy:)
 
Colin's talk is really interesting but if you follow this thread (as in read it and practice it when brewing) AJ sounds like Galileo at the inquistion - the only scientist (with a pH meter instead of a telescope) in a room full of clergy:)

I didn't listen to this recording, but I listened to the 4 shows of Brew Strong (The Brewing Network) on The Brewing Network (mostly John Palmer talking). I'd have to say I agree. Plus, so many people have demonstrated that strips read low, yet in those shows JZ said they were accurate. Don't get me wrong, in general TBN is a good network.
 
... Plus, so many people have demonstrated that strips read low, yet in those shows JZ said they were accurate. Don't get me wrong, in general TBN is a good network.

AJ is also the only one on the panel who didn't sell out and endorse 5.2 stabilizer.
 
When I do this style I use my standard lager water (RO plus enough CaCl2 to get calcium to around 20 which puts chloride at around 38). I use equal amounts of Pils, Vienna and Munich I in a triple decoction mash with saccharification at 148 °F. The beer comes out richly malty but it does finish pretty dry. I'm not a big fan of brewing to match a particular style so I just call it VMO and enjoy it. It comes in at about 6.6% ABV so it is towards the O'fest end of the spectrum.

How much sauermalt do you use with this water? Would this be 3%, for soft water?
 
This is awesome!! made it real simple but some questions... when Im making a pale ale on my 1 bbl system it says to double the calcium chloride so my hot liquor volume is 30 gallons i have extremely alkaline tap water so i dilute 5:1 ro to tap.. i did the math and thats 40.8 g of calcium chloride that seems real high and when i type that in to palmers spread sheet its giving my a chloride of 220 ...am i doing something wrong?
thanks
 
This is awesome!! made it real simple but some questions... when Im making a pale ale on my 1 bbl system it says to double the calcium chloride so my hot liquor volume is 30 gallons i have extremely alkaline tap water so i dilute 5:1 ro to tap.. i did the math and thats 40.8 g of calcium chloride that seems real high and when i type that in to palmers spread sheet its giving my a chloride of 220 ...am i doing something wrong?
thanks

The recommendations are per each 5 gallons of brewing water treated. Are you 5 x too high perhaps?
 
This is awesome!! made it real simple but some questions... when Im making a pale ale on my 1 bbl system it says to double the calcium chloride so my hot liquor volume is 30 gallons i have extremely alkaline tap water so i dilute 5:1 ro to tap.. i did the math and thats 40.8 g of calcium chloride that seems real high and when i type that in to palmers spread sheet its giving my a chloride of 220 ...am i doing something wrong?
thanks

40.8 grams of CaCl2 (the anhydride) in 30 gal of DI water ought to give you 230 mg/L chloride. The stuff you buy at the LHBS is probably equivalent to 80% CaCl2 and thus your chloride would be 0.8*230 = 184 mg/L. That's a lot but remember that the double recommendation is for 'very minerally beers'. If you want to brew very minerally beers it would be better to work up to those levels i.e. use the standard recommendation the first time you brew and add increasing amounts on subsequent brews. Or if you want to start at the 'very minerally' level be sure to try at reduced addition rates on a subsequent brew or two.
 
How about black lagers? I'm planning a schwarzbier and am wondering how I should treat my water assuming I use 100% RO water. Since the recipe contains some caramunich and a small amount of roast malt (carafa), should I really use 3% acid malt? I'm assuming the 1/2 tsp of calcium chloride is still needed.
 
Should an IPA include saurmaiz?

It should include some form of acid. In the UK they use CRS which is a blend of hydrochloric and sulfuric acids. In the US that is not, AFAIK, available so you must use another acid. I feel a little funny about recommending sauermalz in a British beer but as it is pretty universally available, easy and safe to handle and measure out and effective I'd say yes, use it.
 
How about black lagers? I'm planning a schwarzbier and am wondering how I should treat my water assuming I use 100% RO water. Since the recipe contains some caramunich and a small amount of roast malt (carafa), should I really use 3% acid malt? I'm assuming the 1/2 tsp of calcium chloride is still needed.

The caramunich will pull the pH down a little but the carafa not so much (as there isn't much of it). This is a tricky one and thus one where a pH measurement would really be helpful. I'd say, based purely on gut feel, to use 2% sauermalz here assuming that the darker malts will have about the equivalent effect of 1% (i.e. about 0.1 pH).

The calcium chloride is in there not so much to lower pH as it is to provide calcium for other purposes but mainly to be sure there is sufficient chloride so yes, do use it.
 
Should an IPA include saurmaiz?

I have to put a qualifier on this one. If the water is hardened fairly high in order to provide a high sulfate that many IPA lovers enjoy, then it may not be necessary to include acid or acid malt in the mash. This is due to the effect of depressing the mash water's RA via the high amount of calcium (and magnesium, if used) and its reaction with the malt phytins.

Including acid or acid malt in the mash without having a handle on the other factors involved in establishing mash pH, could be trouble. The Primer works with the modest level of mineralization that AJ recommends, so don't try and extrapolate that recommendation when you bump up the minerals.
 
Is there any experience with how pumpkin in the mash affects pH?

I recently made a pumpkin ale and built the water in BruN for an estimated mash pH of 5.5 (though I didn't add anything for the pumpkin in the grain acidification calculator).

The mash pH (measured at ~26*C) ended up being 5.20.

Doing some reading, it appears pumpkin has a pH of ~4.6, so I guess that makes sense that 90oz of pumpkin would drop the pH a bit. Just wondering what anyone else is seeing with pumpkin in the mash.
 
Keep in mind that calcium is relatively ineffectual at reducing pH (relative to acid and relative to the ability of alkalinity to raise it). 100 mg/L calcium will lower knockout pH by 0.12 units (and mash pH by, presumably, a bit less than this). Thus to accomplish the approximately 0.3 pH reduction that is associated with a 3% sauermalz addition would require about 250 mg/L calcium. Also remember that recommendation of 3% in the primer is associated with about 90 mg/L Ca (more than I would use but what many people seem to like).
 
Is there any experience with how pumpkin in the mash affects pH?

I recently made a pumpkin ale and built the water in BruN for an estimated mash pH of 5.5 (though I didn't add anything for the pumpkin in the grain acidification calculator).

The mash pH (measured at ~26*C) ended up being 5.20.

Doing some reading, it appears pumpkin has a pH of ~4.6, so I guess that makes sense that 90oz of pumpkin would drop the pH a bit. Just wondering what anyone else is seeing with pumpkin in the mash.

I believe there is some validity here. I had a similar experience, did you bake your pumpkin? I only used 60 oz, but I baked it on a cookie sheet at 350 degrees for 1-hour and then used it in the mash. Either way my mash pH was the same as yours (5.2) with the pumpkin brew.

I am curious as to what the finished product will be like - I brewed this a month ago and will be kegging it soon. One thing that was peculiar was that it fermented all the way to 1.010 (OG of 1.055) - I mashed at 154 degrees and so I wasn't expecting such a low FG. For reference, when I mash my IPAs at 150 I usually only end up with FGs between 1.012 to 1.014. But fermentation in general was very odd with this pumpkin brew as it was very active for over a week before it started to settle down. I used harvested Bell's yeast and fermented at 65 degrees.
 
Keep in mind that calcium is relatively ineffectual at reducing pH (relative to acid and relative to the ability of alkalinity to raise it). 100 mg/L calcium will lower knockout pH by 0.12 units (and mash pH by, presumably, a bit less than this). Thus to accomplish the approximately 0.3 pH reduction that is associated with a 3% sauermalz addition would require about 250 mg/L calcium. Also remember that recommendation of 3% in the primer is associated with about 90 mg/L Ca (more than I would use but what many people seem to like).

Thank you AJ, for confirming my point. If a 0.3 unit reduction was your target and you actually reduce it by 0.42 units, you probably wouldn't be happy!
 
AJ... if mash pH is properly controlled, do the salt additions matter at all with regards to the mash (or any time before it reaches the glass)?

I ask because I'm thinking I might test various salt additions on a single batch, in order to determine what I feel to be optimal for the beer. For instance, I would carefully measure out (with a milligram scale) additions of calcium chloride to the glass, and stir to mix well before drinking. Or if that causes the beer to foam, I could do it in the bottles while priming... Maybe have a dozen bottles, each with different additions, and pour samples for myself and fellow club members.

Of course, this would only make sense if (assuming mash pH is properly controlled), the only thing these salt additions accomplish are DIRECT effects on our perception of taste, mouthfeel, etc. If they also have less direct secondary effects, then adding them after fermentation wouldn't give very useful results (assuming my plan would from then on be to treat the strike and sparge water).

Am I making sense? It just seems like a convenient way to really experiment with salt additions and how they affect the perception of flavor, and to determine (subjectively, of course), what the best ion concentration would be for any given beer.
 
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