Need advice, panel not GFCI protected

I'm planning a control panel to control 4 2000w elements in two keggles, a RIMS tube and two pumps. DPST contactors and illuminated, pushbutton switches.

Question is, do I need gfci protection for the panel? Right now, my keggles plug into GFCI outlets. I was planning on running lines from the breakers to the control panel, then running lines to GFCI outlets to plug the keggles in. But I'm worried that my panel isn't GFCI protected.

I don't know much about fuses, so for now, my plan was to wire the contactors to share 2 separate 20 amp lines. The BK and HLT won't be on at the same time, then have a third 20amp line for Rims tube and pumps.

I know this isn't elegant. But I don't know much about fuses. 220V would involve a lot of changes from where I'm currently at.

Other than trying to install 4 20 amp gfci breakers, any suggestions?

Thanks.

Could I just use 3 of THESE

Looks like the 20 amp gfci breakers run about $75-$80 each. So this is at least cheaper.

That's a whole 'lot of extension cords you must be using. Why not just go with these receptacles?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000N663PM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

How much current do you expect the panel to draw? I would plug it into one of the existing gfi receptacles. Controls usually don't use much power.

Fuses are simple - just match the wire size to the fuse.

A diagram is a great help. Sketch one up for review or start with one here and we can help make your revisions.

lschiavo is right the panel won't draw much power even with the amount of stuff you have in there. Just feed all your control power off of one gfi outlet and it'll save you a lot of hassle.

yjfun said:

lschiavo is right the panel won't draw much power even with the amount of stuff you have in there. Just feed all your control power off of one gfi outlet and it'll save you a lot of hassle.

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So you're saying to run one 60 amp line to the panel with #6 gauge wire. Then use fuses to protect things? I'd need a 60 amp gfci breaker, though, no?

I was thinking of that. It's just that I started in the direction of plugging keggles and my RIMS box into switched GFCI outlets. So I have four circuits in the area already. I was just going to feed those circuits to my panel, but then my panel isn't GFCI protected.

I'll make up a few sketches before I proceed.

yjfun said:

lschiavo is right the panel won't draw much power even with the amount of stuff you have in there. Just feed all your control power off of one gfi outlet and it'll save you a lot of hassle.

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Okay, I must have missed something. If I have a brew kettle running, that's two 2000w elements at 120V. So they're drawing about 33 amps of power. How can I provide power to the panel from a 20 amp GFCI?

I was envisioning three 20A GFI circuits. One for each element and one for control/pumps.

That's what I was thinking. Run two circuits from your main panel into your control panel through the relays or ssr's to feed two 20 amp gfi outlets on your control panel. Plug in your elements. Run an extension cord from a third 20 amp gfi on your garage wall (or wherever you brew) to your control panel and connect your switches, pids, indicator lights, pump, etc.

yjfun said:

That's what I was thinking. Run two circuits from your main panel into your control panel through the relays or ssr's to feed two 20 amp gfi outlets on your control panel. Plug in your elements. Run an extension cord from a third 20 amp gfi on your garage wall (or wherever you brew) to your control panel and connect your switches, pids, indicator lights, pump, etc.

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I see what you are saying. The elements will be protected by their GFCI outlets. The switches and pumps by the GFCI line I provide into the panel.

You're saying that there's no need to provide GFCI protection for the relays and terminal bars themselves inside the panel, though. Correct?

My concern is that the panel could get splashed or something and it's not really GFCI protected. The gfci protection is upstream for my 2 20 amp circuits and so power will not be shut off at the panel if it becomes energized. Or am I wrong about that?

Each gfi will protect only its own circuit. The downfall to this type of setup is you have multiple hot wires coming into the panel and no way to shut them all off with one switch unless you add another contactor.

You are correct. There is a chance that something could happen because the circuits aren't completely gfi protected. This is why most people run one larger gfi circuit to their control panel. Do you currently have multiple circuits that you are plugging into or are you going to install what you need?

yjfun said:

You are correct. There is a chance that something could happen because the circuits aren't completely gfi protected. This is why most people run one larger gfi circuit to their control panel. Do you currently have multiple circuits that you are plugging into or are you going to install what you need?

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I have four 20 amp circuits already. My panel is full so these are slimline breakers to boot. Plus, I already have 2 elements installed in each of my keggles. So if I changed up and went the 240v GFCI breaker route I'd have to plug the holes in the keggle and install new elements.

Much as I want to install gfci's in the panel, I think maybe the inline GFCI's are the way to go I can install them in a box, then feed the panel and be pretty well protected. $25 each, but seems the best way to be safe and keep costs down.

I still don't understand why a simple 20 amp GFI receptacle won't work for each of the four circuits. I'm assuming that you are plugging everything into the wall already so it is just a matter of changing out the standard outlet for a GFI one. It's a heck of a lot cheaper and just as safe.

Since you already have the circuits run pvtschultz is right the cheapest way is to just replace your existing outlets with gfi outlets. The only downside is if one circuit has a problem the others all stay on.

It does cost more money but you could take out your 4 peanut breakers and install one 2 pole gfi breaker in the 30-50 amp range and run a 4 wire cord over to your control panel. By doing this you could use the two legs as separate 120 volt circuits and not have to change your existing keggle elements.

yjfun said:

Since you already have the circuits run pvtschultz is right the cheapest way is to just replace your existing outlets with gfi outlets. The only downside is if one circuit has a problem the others all stay on.

It does cost more money but you could take out your 4 peanut breakers and install one 2 pole gfi breaker in the 30-50 amp range and run a 4 wire cord over to your control panel. By doing this you could use the two legs as separate 120 volt circuits and not have to change your existing keggle elements.

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This sounds like the way to go. I didn't know you could use each 120v leg separately.

So then I'd need #6 gauge wire to the panel.

I also need someone to point me to a primer on fuses. The rest of my equipment can't be on a circuit with a 60 amp limit.

Just size your fuses to the wire sizes they'll be protecting.

yjfun said:

Since you already have the circuits run pvtschultz is right the cheapest way is to just replace your existing outlets with gfi outlets. The only downside is if one circuit has a problem the others all stay on.

It does cost more money but you could take out your 4 peanut breakers and install one 2 pole gfi breaker in the 30-50 amp range and run a 4 wire cord over to your control panel. By doing this you could use the two legs as separate 120 volt circuits and not have to change your existing keggle elements.

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I'm sorry, but I don't understand you. My elements already plug into gfci receptacles. My concern is that I want to switch these receptacles from my panel. The panel is therefore not GFCI protected. The GFCI is only protecting what is downstream of it. The entire panel is upstream of the GFCI outlets.

yjfun said:

Just size your fuses to the wire sizes they'll be protecting.

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So a fuse like THIS.

Fuse holder?

I don't see a voltage rating on that one. This is what I would use

http://www.discountfuse.com/KTK_10_Bussmann_Limitron_Fuse_p/ktk10.htm

This is what we use at work for anything 120-480 volt. They are relatively cheap and very easy to find in a lot of different ampacities. There are also standardized fuse block assemblies for them at the bottom of the link page.

Gfi outlet in wall wired to relay/ssr wired regular outlet so element can plug in. But again each separate circuit would only protect itself.

yjfun said:

I don't see a voltage rating on that one. This is what I would use

http://www.discountfuse.com/KTK_10_Bussmann_Limitron_Fuse_p/ktk10.htm

This is what we use at work for anything 120-480 volt. They are relatively cheap and very easy to find in a lot of different ampacities. There are also standardized fuse block assemblies for them at the bottom of the link page.

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That's perfect. Thanks.

yjfun said:

Since you already have the circuits run pvtschultz is right the cheapest way is to just replace your existing outlets with gfi outlets. The only downside is if one circuit has a problem the others all stay on.

It does cost more money but you could take out your 4 peanut breakers and install one 2 pole gfi breaker in the 30-50 amp range and run a 4 wire cord over to your control panel. By doing this you could use the two legs as separate 120 volt circuits and not have to change your existing keggle elements.

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So if I do this, I just need one 30 amp 240v gfci breaker, right? This will in effect provide two 30 amp lines, correct?

I can then run these to my two contactors and use fuses to protect the #12 gauge wires.

But will the gfci trip if just one of the elements is losing current? Or will both cut off in this circumstance?

Thanks for the ideas. I think this is the way I'm going to go if I can put a gfci in the panel that will really protect everything down stream.

I'm not sure how much current that single #10 neutral is going to be able to carry (30 amps by NEC in residential applications actually). The two hot legs will be fine since they are each rated for 30 amps, but you'll still have one neutral for up to 50 amps should you go with the larger main breaker. I'm a mechanical engineer so I'm not sure how the neutral is treated in this application, but I'm thinking that the one #10 wire is going to limit you to 30 amps (that is unless you go with #6 wire which will get you to 50 amps total IIRC.

pvtschultz said:

I'm not sure how much current that single #10 neutral is going to be able to carry (30 amps by NEC in residential applications actually). The two hot legs will be fine since they are each rated for 30 amps, but you'll still have one neutral for up to 50 amps should you go with the larger main breaker. I'm a mechanical engineer so I'm not sure how the neutral is treated in this application, but I'm thinking that the one #10 wire is going to limit you to 30 amps (that is unless you go with #6 wire which will get you to 50 amps total IIRC.

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Out of phase legs, the neutral current cannot be larger than the greatest leg.

pvtschultz said:

I'm not sure how much current that single #10 neutral is going to be able to carry (30 amps by NEC in residential applications actually). The two hot legs will be fine since they are each rated for 30 amps, but you'll still have one neutral for up to 50 amps should you go with the larger main breaker. I'm a mechanical engineer so I'm not sure how the neutral is treated in this application, but I'm thinking that the one #10 wire is going to limit you to 30 amps (that is unless you go with #6 wire which will get you to 50 amps total IIRC.

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No, the two hot legs can share a nutrual, they are out of phase. You are fine with your neutral conducter.