Using Olive oil instead of Oxygen

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I know this is an old thread, but what about using olive oil and pitching more yeast to a stuck fermentation?

You can't reaerate after partial fermentation because of oxidation issues. People haven't had great success just pitching another package of yeast because there isn't enough cells and there is no O2 left for exponential growth.

If you pitch another package and add olive oil, or make another starter to which you have added olive oil, then you should be able to get another growth phase and cure a stuck fermentation, no?
 
I know this is an old thread, but what about using olive oil and pitching more yeast to a stuck fermentation?

You can't reaerate after partial fermentation because of oxidation issues. People haven't had great success just pitching another package of yeast because there isn't enough cells and there is no O2 left for exponential growth.

If you pitch another package and add olive oil, or make another starter to which you have added olive oil, then you should be able to get another growth phase and cure a stuck fermentation, no?

Maybe, I havent had a stuck fermentation in more than 6 or 7 years so I cant speak to that specifically. I have been using a tiny amount of Olive oil in my starters instead of 02 for about 20 brews though, and so far they have been great.
 
I've done it with almost all my batches and when i have forgotten, I notice a much "Lighter" fermentation. My friend that got me into homebrewing turned me onto this
 
I have had one batch of Scottish Ale Wee Heavy which was about 1.70 but finished out at a VERY high 1.055. No matter what I tried, I could not get the yeast to start back up. I ended up pouring water into the finished beer to obtain a FG of 1.015 but obviously this is not the correct way to do it.

I was just watching Brewmasters on Discovery Channel with Dogfish Head and Sam C. just showed an entire 120 IPA batch go down the drain for the EXACT same reason. No matter what, they couldn't get the yeast to start again. It cost them over $500,000 in lost sales (yes, they are insured) but I feel the pain.

A lot goes into a brew and I have been VERY successful with nearly every brew I have done. I have NEVER had a failure on the Scottish Wee Heavy but for some reason I just could NOT get it to ferment again. Yes, I tried everything to include a micro drop of Olive oil and even injecting pure O2.

In the end the brew was okay but not something to be real proud of. Next time I am going to use a better starter and probably some yeast nutrient and watch the batch MUCH more closely.
 
I have heard of topping off with olive oil to prevent oxidation. Wine and oil are immiscible and the oil floats on top of the wine. The oil layer prevents contact between oxygen in the air and the wine.
 
Interesting, I have never heard of this. So when adding the amount of oilve oil, when would it be added ? During the boil, or just when the yeast is added ?

This did get me thinking of its use in meads. Has anyone ever used it with sucess in meads? Head rentention does not matter with a mead :D
 
I have heard of topping off with olive oil to prevent oxidation. Wine and oil are immiscible and the oil floats on top of the wine. The oil layer prevents contact between oxygen in the air and the wine.

This tid bit of ingeniousness I have never heard!
 
I have had similar experiences as azingsheim with much lighter fermentations without olive oil (I forgot)
 
I have heard of topping off with olive oil to prevent oxidation. Wine and oil are immiscible and the oil floats on top of the wine. The oil layer prevents contact between oxygen in the air and the wine.

that sounds crazy. good bye head retention;) i would rather add a layer of whole hops to prevent oxidation than using expensive olive oil. the amount of olive oil you need for the O2 replacement is much less than a single drop.
 
that sounds crazy. good bye head retention;) i would rather add a layer of whole hops to prevent oxidation than using expensive olive oil. the amount of olive oil you need for the O2 replacement is much less than a single drop.

Wouldnt you only need enough to create a very thin layer of oil on top of the wine/beer?

I do agree with you that I would not be surprised to see no head on the beer.
 
I have tried the olive oil experiment. I used a diabetic syringe and measured to .025 nl per 5 gallons and injected that into the wort and not into the slurry. I did this based on some other results I had seen from home brewers that post here. I can say that the fermentation was very vigorous but I can NOT say it was because of the OO because of no controls to compare it to. In retrospect I should have poured off a liter or two before adding the OO to keep as a test.

I didn't see noticeably less head retention in the final product. I couldn't distinguish the taste and I didn't have a control to compare it to.
I didn't dare put more in and I am not sure I put enough in the wort to make a difference. So, it is true that the amount you use is very VERY small and I am not sure the big breweries that have tried this still are experimenting.

The idea, on paper, is sound. It comes from an experiment done by Grady Hull (and possibly inspired by others) and was done on a very big scale. The thesis is here:
http://www.haandbrygforum.dk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Olive-oil-thesis.pdf

A bit of heavy reading. I came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the risk of losing head retention even at the very low margins of oil I used. Since I was not using scientific methods to measure, I can't really say how much is needed or if I used too much. I don't really want to ruin my beer based on a few studies. As time goes on I think we will see more experiments and possibly a calculation based on SG that one could add some olive oil as an oxidizer.

http://www.fermentarium.com/homebrewing/brewing-beer/should-you-put-olive-oil-in-your-homebrew/

I would simply not recommend doing this because I think most home brewers can get excellent results using traditional yeast starters and normal brewing procedures. I do admit I like experimenting but doing so without controls simply is anecdotal at best.
 
Maybe I'm missing something, but head retention is far far less important to me than making a good tasting beer. I care 100% about the taste on 0% about clarity and head retention.

My only concern with Olive Oil is the chance of introducing an infection.
 
Maybe I'm missing something, but head retention is far far less important to me than making a good tasting beer. I care 100% about the taste on 0% about clarity and head retention.

My only concern with Olive Oil is the chance of introducing an infection.
The amount of Olive Oil would be so insignificant, infection worries wouldn't matter. If Olive Oil is fresh, there should be minimal bacteria present. I suspect the alcohol produced would kill bacteria. In any event, I tried the OO addition of about 1 mil per 5 gallons. I have an endless supply of diabetic syringes from my Vet and I used that to measure.

Does it work? Hard to say. I don't think there is a good scientific study to prove it works. I just avoid it now. I would estimate there would NOT be enough oil to cause a significant head retention loss. However, no controlled studies have been done and it is unlikely it will be done. I also must add that simply extrapolating data is not a proven... in fact often DIS-PROVEN method of experimentation. One would have to repeat this experiment over time and using various controls... yuk, relax and have a homebrew!

As stated before, I just concluded on my own that OO injection is not worth it. I am not sure of results and not willing to sacrifice my brew just for science.
 
Here is a good experiment showing the merits of using olive oil vs oxygen aeration.

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/...estroy-head-formation-and-retention-your-beer


I have personally used olive oil without any issues. One drop of olive oil when hydrating the dry yeast works great. Microwave 1 cup of water for 1 minute and then add 1 drop of olive oil. Mix it gently with a spoon to break it up. Let it cool until it reaches 80 degrees and then add the yeast and mix gently.
 
Here is a good experiment showing the merits of using olive oil vs oxygen aeration.

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/...estroy-head-formation-and-retention-your-beer


I have personally used olive oil without any issues. One drop of olive oil when hydrating the dry yeast works great. Microwave 1 cup of water for 1 minute and then add 1 drop of olive oil. Mix it gently with a spoon to break it up. Let it cool until it reaches 80 degrees and then add the yeast and mix gently.

Pointless experiment. You don't need to add O2 or the Oil for a quality dry yeast as the manufacturer (Fermentis) has built that in the yeast. I never aerate or oxygenate my wort if using dry yeast.
 
I wouldn't say pointless. It at least shows that the non-aerated beer tasted better and the oil did not affect head retention which was the main point. Does the olive oil help the yeast at all? I am not a biochemist but it is quite possible that the yeast made use of the oil.
 
I tried this with back to back golden strong batches and I can't tell a difference in taste but the olive oil starter one did have less head retention, but not to the point of making it sub par. I used one very small drop for five gallons.
 
I tried this with back to back golden strong batches and I can't tell a difference in taste but the olive oil starter one did have less head retention, but not to the point of making it sub par. I used one very small drop for five gallons.

And the one small drop was still probably 100 times more than needed.
 
I really surprises me that this olive oil idea has as much traction as it does. Grady Hull's thesis is scientifically flawed and inconclusive, the maltose falcon's experiments conclude that there really is no effect of olive oil, other than it only decreases head retention "a little bit", and the best we can get is a bunch of anonymous posters on the web forum that claim it has an effect when they use it.

Can't we put this one to bed? Leave the olive oil for cooking and if you want to oxygenate your wort, use a oxygen setup from your home brew shop.
 
I tried it once by putting a drop in one fermenter and just aerated the second (both containing half of the 10-gal batch of the same beer) and the aerated one took off better, and the oiled one took a bit longer to complete, but in the end I wasn't convinced that oil was worth adding to my wort -far as I'm concerned, I'm with Broadbill. Olive Oil works GREAT as a cooking ingredient (and in our house we use it often) -but has no real place in my brewery.
 
Olive oil contains unsaturated fatty acids as does many yeast nutrient packages. There may be some scientific basis for the olive oil addition. I say give it a try.
 
this much was said in the BYO article on the subject -they also said that at the average homebrewers' level of production it would be tough to notice any benefits -as well as the idea that the amount to use would be so small as to be impractical.
As I see it, it really fits the "may be helpful, probably not harmful" category.

Personally, aside from aerating, I always add a dose of yeast nutrient at the end of the boil as well. The stuff isn't expensive and certainly can't hurt!
 
Olive oil contains unsaturated fatty acids as does many yeast nutrient packages. There may be some scientific basis for the olive oil addition. I say give it a try.

I don't refute the scientific basis of either yeast nutrient or olive oil. The science makes sense. What I question is if there is an observable effect of their addition, particularly at the home-brew scale?.

I certainly understand the "It couldn't hurt!" theory....but there is any number of things you could add under based on this theory. Where do you draw the line?
 
I really surprises me that this olive oil idea has as much traction as it does. Grady Hull's thesis is scientifically flawed and inconclusive, the maltose falcon's experiments conclude that there really is no effect of olive oil, other than it only decreases head retention "a little bit", and the best we can get is a bunch of anonymous posters on the web forum that claim it has an effect when they use it.

Can't we put this one to bed? Leave the olive oil for cooking and if you want to oxygenate your wort, use a oxygen setup from your home brew shop.

Then what is with all the people who tried it with success. Just because you are uncomfortable doesn't mean you need to make up excuses to invalidate it. There is no scientific evidence that says it effects the beer and there are people who have tried it with success. Since when does science play bias?
 
Why has no one mentioned the elephant in the room...Bareleywine. You can only get so much O2 by shaking.
 
Why has no one mentioned the elephant in the room...

VB03-Moritz-S-A--Funny-Beer-Poster.jpg
 
Then what is with all the people who tried it with success. Just because you are uncomfortable doesn't mean you need to make up excuses to invalidate it. There is no scientific evidence that says it effects the beer and there are people who have tried it with success. Since when does science play bias?

I have seen only one credible experiment with olive oil on the homebrew level. The results were that the beer without olive oil was preferred by tasters. Even the company that originally did the research doesn't use it. What does that say?
 
I have seen only one credible experiment with olive oil on the homebrew level. The results were that the beer without olive oil was preferred by tasters. Even the company that originally did the research doesn't use it. What does that say?

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/...estroy-head-formation-and-retention-your-beer

"There was no significant difference between either sample by subjective flavor comparison."

"I should add the footnote that when we did the side-by-side head comparison test at our monthly meeting using polystyrene glasses, there was absolutely no difference between the two. Perhaps there was some contaminant on the glass I used for the olive oil sample in the photos above."

1-1. I still don't see any reason to say this doesn't work, regardless of who uses it.
 
Whether it works or not? It seems that they both work since they both ferment. My take from reading about the new belgium experiment and reading the one that Denny posted is that it does effect the flavors but does not significantly effect head retention. More triangle tests would be great with different styles.

From what I remember in the new belgium test, the OO was preferred due to the increased esters. If more esters will help a certain style than the OO may be beneficial. But that same effect in other styles would be negative.

I personally don't see this debate as black and white. It seems that using OO will get you the same attenuation as O2 but change flavors. So it seems to me that OO would be a nice addition to certain beers. I'll be doing my own personal tests for my own personal benefit using OO in beers that could use more esters but where I'd prefer to keep temps lower due to other off flavors. Whether it will give the effects that I want, I don't know, but if it's drinkable with both methods, I see nothing to lose by trying.

My take away is that OO is not a substitute for O2. It is a different method to assist in yeast reproduction that will yield different flavors that will be suitable for some beers but not for others.
 
Keep in mind that what happens in a commercial brewery situation may not apply to homebrewers due to differences of scale.
 
I would be interested to see someone do an experiment making starters and counting the cell growth. The increased esters won't make a difference. The multiple generations can benefit from the extra oil left over that doesn't get used. It might even prime the cell walls for the growth inside the wort. This would need to be a highly controlled experiment with accurate measurements involved. I wonder where Wyeast stands on this?
 
Conducting a truly scientific experiment with OO would prove difficult because you are dealing with organic compounds that are subject to all kinds of variables. It is pretty clear that the amount of OO used doesn't cause significant effects on head retention. It is also pretty clear that for most Homebrewers, it probably isn't worth the risk or trouble.

Most tests I have read about don't use a control wort, so the results of fermentation may have just happened by natural causes. To be sure, one may have to run GC tests and have a significant amount of testing with controllable variables and some control methods. This is definitely something that a large brewery may want to consider, but I sure wouldn't want to risk my business model on a mostly untested methodology.
Fermentation is a very easy process to produce. Controlling every aspect of it can be tricky and never fail-safe. However, mother nature has pretty much got this down.

To me, it probably doesn't make enough difference to keep doing it. It kinda takes the "fun" out of brewing. Heck, I don't even inject O2 or even ambient air because I use a very strong starter. I see the current trend of using yeast nutrients as a potential oxygen reducing method. Servomyces (tm) is used frequently around the brewing world. I have yet to use it.

This all being said, I am planning a Oktoberfest brew very soon and I think I may take a few gallons out into another fermentation chamber and inject 1-2 mils of OO into it. Just to be safe, I will also just use the shake-method of injecting AA (Ambient Air).

If I do this, I for sure will come back with my results.
Brew Strong!
 
The thread seems to strayed away from the primary goal of the paper. The reason for adding oleic acid (and avoid aeration) was to reduce oxidative effects in aging (hence the progressive experiments with longer warm stored beers) i.e. a more stable flavor profile.

Any tests evaluating the value of olive oil (oleic acid) additions to avoid aeration for the purpose of reducing oxidative effects in aging should evaluate the flavor profile at different ages under varying storage conditions. The discussion in this tread seems to be focused on whether or not the beer comes out tasting alright and retains its head, which while related, are not the primary point of the paper.

Has anybody evaluated flavor stability over a long period of time?
 
it would seem that using a 3/10cc half unit diabetic syringe to measure olive oil for 10 gallon batches becomes pretty practical. A unit on diabetic syringe is 1/100 of ml - the half-unit syringes have markings every half (i.e. every .005 ml). Using a pitch rate of 1 million cells x milliliters of wort x (.75 for ale, 1.5 for lager) x degrees plato and using Hull's third experiment amount (1mg OO / 25 billion cells) and that 1mg of olive oil is .0011 ml volume

a 1.048 (12 plato) ale would need 360 billion cell pitch size which means 0.01584ml of olive oil, which is 1.584 (~1.5) units on the insulin syringe (which has half unit markings). So for different size beers everything should be reasonably precisely supported by a 3/10cc half-unit diabetic syringe from little 1.016SG ales (half unit) up to big 1.1SG lagers (6 units)
 
Conducting a truly scientific experiment with OO would prove difficult because you are dealing with organic compounds that are subject to all kinds of variables. It is pretty clear that the amount of OO used doesn't cause significant effects on head retention. It is also pretty clear that for most Homebrewers, it probably isn't worth the risk or trouble.

Most tests I have read about don't use a control wort, so the results of fermentation may have just happened by natural causes. To be sure, one may have to run GC tests and have a significant amount of testing with controllable variables and some control methods. This is definitely something that a large brewery may want to consider, but I sure wouldn't want to risk my business model on a mostly untested methodology.
Fermentation is a very easy process to produce. Controlling every aspect of it can be tricky and never fail-safe. However, mother nature has pretty much got this down.

To me, it probably doesn't make enough difference to keep doing it. It kinda takes the "fun" out of brewing. Heck, I don't even inject O2 or even ambient air because I use a very strong starter. I see the current trend of using yeast nutrients as a potential oxygen reducing method. Servomyces (tm) is used frequently around the brewing world. I have yet to use it.

This all being said, I am planning a Oktoberfest brew very soon and I think I may take a few gallons out into another fermentation chamber and inject 1-2 mils of OO into it. Just to be safe, I will also just use the shake-method of injecting AA (Ambient Air).

If I do this, I for sure will come back with my results.
Brew Strong!

Any results yet?
 
Any results yet?

Hi, I haven't done it yet... but I think I may try this on the next batch I have which would be a Heffeweisen I have ready to make. Since Heff is a lighter brew, I probably will go with a 1 mil infusion of OO. Now, let me tell you that 1 mil is next to nothing, in my book. I happen to have diabetic syringes all over the place as our cat is diabetic and he gets about 5. to 1 mil per day.
As a control, I will draw out 1 liter of wort into a separate container and ferment in the same environment to see what takes place naturally.

To make sure I get a good beer, I am going to do my usual routine of splashing the wort around out of the kettle into the fermentation stage.

I am still not sure how to quantify how this would work. I mean, how do you really determine yeast growth using this method? Duplicating the test would be a very challenging event in a home environment with so many variables.

I just can NOT believe that adding such a small portion would halt head retention. Last time I did this, there really was not a difference in the beer as far as taste, longevity, head retention... whatever.
 
Hi, I haven't done it yet... but I think I may try this on the next batch I have which would be a Heffeweisen I have ready to make. Since Heff is a lighter brew, I probably will go with a 1 mil infusion of OO. Now, let me tell you that 1 mil is next to nothing, in my book. I happen to have diabetic syringes all over the place as our cat is diabetic and he gets about 5. to 1 mil per day.
As a control, I will draw out 1 liter of wort into a separate container and ferment in the same environment to see what takes place naturally.

To make sure I get a good beer, I am going to do my usual routine of splashing the wort around out of the kettle into the fermentation stage.

I am still not sure how to quantify how this would work. I mean, how do you really determine yeast growth using this method? Duplicating the test would be a very challenging event in a home environment with so many variables.

I just can NOT believe that adding such a small portion would halt head retention. Last time I did this, there really was not a difference in the beer as far as taste, longevity, head retention... whatever.

A hefeweizen in its own right should have plenty of proteins for head retention, this may not be the best beer to test that out on.

Also, I can only imagine to really test this, you don't want to introduce ANY oxygen to the system, the point of using OO. Splashing it in the carboy gives it a good amount of the O2 it needs normally. I would siphon if you want to really compare.
 
Back
Top