Beer tastes good BEFORE bottling, bad after..???

So this has happened to me twice now and I just don't get it. The first time was with a Saison and this time it's my IPA. Coincidentally (or not?) these are the only two light colored beers I've made so far. My stout, scottish ale, brown ale and dubbel all turned out fantastic. I tasted both the Saison and the IPA on bottling day and was really excited because they both tasted great. Sadly, after carbing up, they both ended up tasting horrible. It's the same flavor with both beers and I can't describe it. The beer tastes good at first but finishes with this nasty aftertaste that is really pronounced when you exhale. Yes the flavor fades after a few weeks so most people will just say it's green and I should give it more time and with the Saison I believed that. However, it just doesn't make sense that the beer would taste great on bottling day but horrible after carbing up. It shouldn't happen. My other beers tasted great before and after they were carbed but these two tasted great UNTIL they were carbed. Anybody had a similar experience? What could this be?

I've had this happen. It could be how you clean and sanitize your bottles, as well as how well you clean your bottling bucket. Do you take the spigot apart after each use?

sudsmcgee said:

I've had this happen. It could be how you clean and sanitize your bottles, as well as how well you clean your bottling bucket. Do you take the spigot apart after each use?

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I run my bottles through the dishwasher on high heat and then I give them a 1 minute soak in Star San, then let them dry on the dishwasher racks for 30 - 40 minutes. I soak my bottling bucket in Star San but I don't take the spigot apart. I do let all of the Star San drain out through the spigot though.......it's really frustrating because the flavor doesn't match any of the common off flavors and it's not noticeable AT ALL before bottling. It's only after carbing up that the beer tasted bad and it's only happened with the two light colored beers I've brewed. All of my other beers have turned out excellent. The only flavor I can think of that is remotely similar is like a nasty, cheap ass malt liquor (Colt 45 comes to mind) but I haven't had any **** like that since high school so I can't really remember.

You have either a sanitation or oxydation issue.

mthelm85 said:

I run my bottles through the dishwasher on high heat and then I give them a 1 minute soak in Star San, then let them dry on the dishwasher racks for 30 - 40 minutes. I soak my bottling bucket in Star San but I don't take the spigot apart. I do let all of the Star San drain out through the spigot though.......it's really frustrating because the flavor doesn't match any of the common off flavors and it's not noticeable AT ALL before bottling. It's only after carbing up that the beer tasted bad and it's only happened with the two light colored beers I've brewed. All of my other beers have turned out excellent. The only flavor I can think of that is remotely similar is like a nasty, cheap ass malt liquor (Colt 45 comes to mind) but I haven't had any **** like that since high school so I can't really remember.

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Take the spigot apart and give it a good cleaning and sanitation after each. My problem went away after I started doing this. Think about it, if you have a tiny bit of bacteria you are spreading it into every single bottle and adding sugar for it to eat.......

bullinachinashop said:

You have either a sanitation or oxydation issue.

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I think I can rule oxidation out for a number of reasons. First, the beer tastes great on bottling day and then 7 days later it tastes completely different and off flavors from oxidation don't show up that quickly. Second, I take great care in transferring my beer and I do it the same way with every batch so if it were oxidation from my process, it would show up in every batch.

I also am skeptical to diagnose it as a sanitation issue because I go to great lengths to sanitize my bottles and bottling equipment. As I mentioned, the bottles go through a full cycle of the dish washer on high heat (high heat wash, high heat dry) and then I give them a Star San bath after. I only let them dry for 30 minutes or so, so there is always a little bit of Stan San foam left in the bottle when I fill it. My bottling equipment gets soaked in Star San for about 30 minutes and my priming solution is obviously boiled just prior to dumping it in the bottling bucket.

Again, I've done every batch the same way and I did 3 batches in between the Saison and the IPA that turned out fantastic.

sudsmcgee said:

Take the spigot apart and give it a good cleaning and sanitation after each. My problem went away after I started doing this. Think about it, if you have a tiny bit of bacteria you are spreading it into every single bottle and adding sugar for it to eat.......

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Good idea, I will definitely do that.

mthelm85 said:

I think I can rule oxidation out for a number of reason. First the beer tastes great on bottling day and then 7 days later it tastes completely different and off flavors from oxidation don't show up that quickly. Second, I take great care in transferring my beer and I do it the same way with every batch so if it were oxidation from my process, it would show up in every batch.

I also am skeptical to diagnose it as a sanitation issue because I go to great lengths to sanitize my bottles and bottling equipment. As I mentioned, the bottles go through a full cycle of the dish washer on high heat (high heat wash, high heat dry) and then I give them a Star San bath after. I only let them dry for 30 minutes or so, so there is always a little bit of Stan San foam left in the bottle when I fill it. My bottling equipment gets soaked in Star San for about 30 minutes and my priming solution is obviously boiled just prior to dumping it in the bottling bucket.

Again, I've done every batch the same way and I did 3 batches in between the Saison and the IPA that turned out fantastic.

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You can't really say you go through great lengths to sanitize your bottling equipment if you don't take apart and clean/sanitize the spigot. I strongly suggest giving this a try and I can't stress this enough.

sudsmcgee said:

You can't really say you go through great lengths to sanitize your bottling equipment if you don't take apart and clean/sanitize the spigot. I strongly suggest giving this a try and I can't stress this enough.

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Advice taken. The spigot will be coming apart now every time. But......if the flavor was from an infection would it mellow out with time? Whatever this off flavor is, it definitely mellows significantly after 3 weeks. At week 1 both beers were undrinkable but by week 3 they were drinkable, but the off flavor still nips at my tongue. I would think that off flavors from infection wouldn't subside so quickly, would they?

After this happened with the Saison I just thought that the beer was green and the green flavor just wasn't noticeable until the beer carbed up a bit. I bottled the Saison early (it was my 3rd batch so I still hadn't learned my lesson at that point) but the IPA was in secondary for 3 weeks so it shouldn't taste green. At the same time, I did a 1.045 brown ale that was in primary 1 week and secondary for 2 weeks and after 7 days in the bottle it was fantastic.

I have a Scottish Ale that tasted delicious on bottling day, but after three weeks carbing up was flavorless. Not nasty, just no real flavor, and thin. Three weeks later it is very tasty. Well balanced with good body. The only thing missing is that hint of smokiness that I enjoy in a Scottish ale. Thinking of adding some smoked or peated malt when I brew this again. I also had a cider that was foul after carbing. It had a bitter finish, with hints of nail polish and roadkill. I thought it might be a dumper, but an old cider man told me to give it some time. A year later and I'm sad to say that I only have ten bottles left. Good cider!

Dishwashers are inconsistent in their spray patterns and may leave soap inside the bottle. this is further dried on in the high heat cycle and may not be so easily removed with the star san soak.
You may be over thinking it.
Try just a soak in oxyclean free and the store upside down untill you sanitize them.
30 seconds is fine at proper dilution rates and you should fill when wet.

Good luck
Bull

mthelm85 said:

Advice taken. The spigot will be coming apart now every time. But......if the flavor was from an infection would it mellow out with time? Whatever this off flavor is, it definitely mellows significantly after 3 weeks. At week 1 both beers were undrinkable but by week 3 they were drinkable, but the off flavor still nips at my tongue. I would think that off flavors from infection wouldn't subside so quickly, would they?

After this happened with the Saison I just thought that the beer was green and the green flavor just wasn't noticeable until the beer carbed up a bit. I bottled the Saison early (it was my 3rd batch so I still hadn't learned my lesson at that point) but the IPA was in secondary for 3 weeks so it shouldn't taste green. At the same time, I did a 1.045 brown ale that was in primary 1 week and secondary for 2 weeks and after 7 days in the bottle it was fantastic.

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Keep in mind that when bottle conditioning you are starting the fermentation process all over. So even if your beer has aged for 3 months, after adding priming sugar, your beer is green once again.

Don't see the need for letting the bottles dry after a Star San soak. It should do nothing but provide more of an oppurtunity for microbes to land in the bottle.

If you continue to have, or worry about having, this problem you could puchase a vinator, and use starsan in it. It gives you a spray of sanitizer in the bottle just before filling. Goodbye any bugs.

bullinachinashop said:

Dishwashers are inconsistent in their spray patterns and may leave soap inside the bottle. this is further dried on in the high heat cycle and may not be so easily removed with the star san soak.
You may be over thinking it.
Try just a soak in oxyclean free and the store upside down untill you sanitize them.
30 seconds is fine at proper dilution rates and you should fill when wet.

Good luck
Bull

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+1

Dishwashers are fine if you don't use soap in them!!!
check this out!! This is about cleaning glasses but clean is clean

sudsmcgee said:

Keep in mind that when bottle conditioning you are starting the fermentation process all over. So even if your beer has aged for 3 months, after adding priming sugar, your beer is green once again.

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Yeah I've considered this as well but then I don't understand why the dark beers I've made haven't had this same problem. At first thought, I would say that the maltiness covers up the flavor but this off flavor I'm experiencing really dominates the beer flavor as a whole, no amount of malt flavor could cover it up. And this IPA is loaded with hops so if the flavor were able to be masked, I would think the hops would cover it up.

The only other thing that's different is that I haven't carbed my other beers to the same level as these two. I carbed my Saison to 3 volumes and this beer to 2.5 volumes. I don't know, I'm just going to take the advice you all have given and maybe brew the same recipe but carb to 2 volumes and see if that makes any difference.

I have brewed and bottled over 100 ales now and I just made two batches in a row with a similar off flavor that is also hard to describe. I'm really bummed right now. my process hasn't changed so I don't know what's going wrong. I feel for ya.

I have had an off flavor that is described very similarly to what you have. I believe it was from the bottles. Whether it be how I cleaned and sanitized the bottles I could never pin point the cause. When I finally started kegging, the flavor disappeared. I was so turned off by this flavor, every time I drink a homebrew and exhale, I try to see if I can taste it! It's very tough to describe the flavor... Maybe dirty ass mixed with diesel engine exhaust? Dunno, but I think it was coming from my bottles. I used to clean and sanitize my bottles the same as you. By chance do you use Italian made flip top bottles?

UPDATE: So after doing a lot of reading and thinking I started to suspect that maybe I over-carbed these two batches because, besides the fact that they are the only two non-dark beers that I've made, they're the only two that I've really aimed for a relatively high level of carbonation. I aimed for 2.5 volumes for this batch but I know I overshot it because my calculations were based on bottling 5 gallons and I didn't have a full 5 gallons (I knew that just didn't think it was a big deal) and the Saison I aimed for 3.0 volumes and made the same mistake.

I decided to crack open another one of the bottles today and I shook the **** out of it and once I poured it I swirled the glass around for 15 minutes straight until the beer was flat and warm. I then tasted it and - voilà - the off flavor that I've been trying to describe was much, much more subtle. It's there, but it's not nearly as predominant.

So the question now is, what is it? Carbonic acid? Is it some other flavor that's just not as noticeable in flat, warm beer? Is it actually being caused by my over-carbing or is it just the excess level of carbonation that makes it so predominant?

Beerbeque said:

I have brewed and bottled over 100 ales now and I just made two batches in a row with a similar off flavor that is also hard to describe. I'm really bummed right now. my process hasn't changed so I don't know what's going wrong. I feel for ya.

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Did you carb them at higher levels than normal? I'm thinking about entering this batch in a competition with the hopes that a certified judge will be able to tell me what it is because it's driving me nuts. I've made really, really good beers but this latest batch is awful. One of the main reasons I make beer is because I like to share it with friends and family but I would be embarrassed to have anyone taste this batch so it really sucks. Hopefully I can pinpoint the problem.

cl330b said:

I have had an off flavor that is described very similarly to what you have. I believe it was from the bottles. Whether it be how I cleaned and sanitized the bottles I could never pin point the cause. When I finally started kegging, the flavor disappeared. I was so turned off by this flavor, every time I drink a homebrew and exhale, I try to see if I can taste it! It's very tough to describe the flavor... Maybe dirty ass mixed with diesel engine exhaust? Dunno, but I think it was coming from my bottles. I used to clean and sanitize my bottles the same as you. By chance do you use Italian made flip top bottles?

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Nope, I use a combination of Sierra Nevada bottles, Dechutes Brewing bottles, and the rest are bottles I bought from my LHBS.

I had a problem with my beer tasting good before carbonation and tasting like tire rubber after, so my next batch of beer will be made with nothing but RO/spring bottled water, because I guess I have chloramine in out local water table, if it's still there I will be back on HBT asking questions

Absolutely +1 on disassembling the spigot from the bucket, and then the spigot itself. If you have one of the spigots with the white body and red handle, run it under hot tap water for 5-10 seconds, and it will be much easier to take apart. I had made my first five batches or so, and ran into a thread talking about taking the spigot apart, but couldn't get that handle out until some helpful HBT'er came on and gave the hot water tip. Sure enough- I took it apart, and there was a nice ring of nasty-looking crud inside.

From what I remember Starsan is only effective while it's wet. Letting the bottles dry after starsan can cause issues in a dirty environment. Embrace the Foam!

Ive had a very similar issue with some of my beers. I've noticed that buying my ingredients from somewhere with high volume/turnover and doing full, long boils and making a starter has pretty much eliminated the issue. I think there is some chemical or compound in the beer that gets gassed off with the CO2 or some byproduct of fermentation that produces that taste. I've also noticed my friend secondaries for a couple of weeks in a glass carboy always and his beer comes out pretty clean. My last batch was force carbed in a keg and was my cleanest beer yet! Now on to all grain next week!!! Wish me luck and good luck with your issue.

This is the situation. I've now been through this 4 or 5 times. I brew a batch and all goes well. I sample it at bottling and it tastes great, warm, flat but god taste and aroma. This time was a pale ale with mostly Cascade hops.
A week in the bottle its got a great head, good carbonation and tastes great.
Then after 20 days in the bottle it goes to crap. Slight aroma and its just off, like sour. It has a bitter, astringent taste. Like licking a tea bag. Some people say it tastes okay but it does not and just days earlier it was great, not okay.
I''m aging the bottles at about 70 degrees, maybe cooler.
So it seems all went well during brewing and bottling. It was good and went bad at about the time it should have aged to perfection. I doubt sanitation as it was good for 2 to 3 weeks each time. Each time the off / bad taste is the same. Yes, all batches become the same, the same crap.
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

togodoug said:

This is the situation. I've now been through this 4 or 5 times. I brew a batch and all goes well. I sample it at bottling and it tastes great, warm, flat but god taste and aroma. This time was a pale ale with mostly Cascade hops.
A week in the bottle its got a great head, good carbonation and tastes great.
Then after 20 days in the bottle it goes to crap. Slight aroma and its just off, like sour. It has a bitter, astringent taste. Like licking a tea bag. Some people say it tastes okay but it does not and just days earlier it was great, not okay.
I''m aging the bottles at about 70 degrees, maybe cooler.
So it seems all went well during brewing and bottling. It was good and went bad at about the time it should have aged to perfection. I doubt sanitation as it was good for 2 to 3 weeks each time. Each time the off / bad taste is the same. Yes, all batches become the same, the same crap.
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

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Since I originally posted this over a year ago I've made some changes and haven't had the problem anymore. Everyone pointed to sanitation but my sanitation practices are the same now as they were then so I know that wasn't the problem. I don't really know the cause of the problem I was having or which (if any) of the changes to my process that I've made solved the problem.

The first thing I did was I started doing a more vigorous boil and I use Whirlfloc every batch. This of course worked wonders on my beer as far as clarity goes, you can hold my beer next to a filtered commercial brew and in many instances it's just as clear. Make sure you are boiling the crap out of the beer and if you're not using Whirlfloc, start.

Another major change is that I fabricated a stir plate and always make my starters on the stir plate now. I have a formula in my brew spreadsheet to determine the size of the starter that I use but if you don't want to mess around with a formula and spreadsheet just check out the Mr. Malty calculator on that website. For American ales and other beers that I want a clean profile for I make my starter at 1.5 million cells / ml P which is about twice the amount that I use when I am doing an English or Belgian ale where I want esters/phenols.

That leads me to the last major change in my process. I don't keep my beers in the carboy for nearly as long as I used to. Conventional wisdom in the homebrew community seems to say that your beer should be in the carboy at least three weeks and then a lot of guys do a secondary after that. Unless it's a high gravity beer (> 1.060), I only do about 1 week in the carboy. Pitching the right amount of yeast and controlling my fermentation temperatures has meant that my fermentation is usually done in 3 or 4 days. In most cases I'm bottling within 2 weeks, sometimes even by day 7 or 8. Most people on this site will say that's a bad idea but I've been making FANTASTIC beer this way, far better than what I was making when I was aging for weeks in the carboys. Basically my rule is this, once I hit FG I bottle. Then, just as soon as it's fully carbed it goes straight in the fridge.

Since I've been doing these things I haven't experienced this problem anymore so I would try it if you aren't already doing things this way, it can't hurt and for me it completely solved my problem and I'm making some of the best beer I've ever had anywhere, hands down.

I don't keep my beers in the carboy for nearly as long as I used to. Conventional wisdom in the homebrew community seems to say that your beer should be in the carboy at least three weeks and then a lot of guys do a secondary after that. Unless it's a high gravity beer (> 1.060), I only do about 1 week in the carboy. Pitching the right amount of yeast and controlling my fermentation temperatures has meant that my fermentation is usually done in 3 or 4 days. In most cases I'm bottling within 2 weeks, sometimes even by day 7 or 8. Most people on this site will say that's a bad idea but I've been making FANTASTIC beer this way, far better than what I was making when I was aging for weeks in the carboys. Basically my rule is this, once I hit FG I bottle. Then, just as soon as it's fully carbed it goes straight in the fridge.

I've had this issue pretty consistently, more times than not. So I don't do a gravity reading and I don't do secondary fermentation, both out of fear of contamination. I bought a new transfer bucket cause I think I can feel a scratch in one and think it could hold bacteria. The problem is reoccurring and the amount of iodophor I use really makes me think its not sanitation, but I used different water and ingredients and almost everyone here says sanitation.
SO WHAT is the taste difference between bacteria and oxidation? Would air in the siphon hose cause oxydation? Would pouring the wort or sloshing it a lot while still above 80 degrees, before fermentation, cause this late onset bad taste?

togodoug said:

I've had this issue pretty consistently, more times than not. So I don't do a gravity reading and I don't do secondary fermentation, both out of fear of contamination. I bought a new transfer bucket cause I think I can feel a scratch in one and think it could hold bacteria. The problem is reoccurring and the amount of iodophor I use really makes me think its not sanitation, but I used different water and ingredients and almost everyone here says sanitation.
SO WHAT is the taste difference between bacteria and oxidation? Would air in the siphon hose cause oxydation? Would pouring the wort or sloshing it a lot while still above 80 degrees, before fermentation, cause this late onset bad taste?

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The off-flavors resulting from oxidation are generally thought of as a longer-term issue but if you are storing your beer at warm temperatures, the effects of oxidation can become noticeable rather quickly. That's why I bottle my beer as soon as it hits FG and then as soon as it's carbed up (almost always within 7 days for me) it all goes straight into the refrigerator. The chemical reactions involved in the staling of beer are rapidly accelerated by warmer temperatures. Don't quote me on this but I believe I read something by Dr. Charlie Bamforth once where he said that beer stales three times faster for every 10 degree Celsius increase in the storage temperature. So think about it, if you store your beer at 41 degrees Fahrenheit, it will last 6 times longer than it will if you store it at 77 degrees Fahrenheit. In other words, if a beer at 77 degrees goes stale after one month, that same beer at 41 degrees could go for 6 months before going stale.

I would say you should be very careful when it comes to introducing oxygen into your beer and you definitely want to cool it down to below 80 degrees, at least, before any splashing.

As far as an infection, it's really difficult to know without getting a microscope and then knowing what to look for, unless you have a really bad infection that produces characteristic infection flavors (do a search on Google for common off flavors). If you are being very careful with your sanitation practices, you are probably okay. You might try switching to Starsan if you've been using Iodophor for a while. I use Starsan exclusively and don't have any issues.

It seems most people think its sanitation. I don't like that idea because I think I'm doing all I can, including changing siphon tubes and fermentation bucket. This brings me to two questions:
1. If its yeast v. bacteria, can someone describe the difference in taste? What does infection taste like and what does bad yeast taste like?
2. Has anyone thought of oxidation? I have noticed some air bubbles in my siphon tube, it can come in where the tube attaches to the auto siphon. I have also sloshed the wort a lot, poured it to transfer bucket while still about 100 degrees and put it in an ice bath and spun it (like a champaigne bottle in an ice chill at a restaurant I can't afford). I wonder if this could be the issue? I've used this method of chilling a few times, some of them came out fine so I doubt it. The air in the siphon hose I wonder about. What would oxidation taste like?

What size auto siphon are you using? The large ones are supposedly for wine and actually aerate as you transfer. I found this out just recently after using them for years.

Scribble said:

What size auto siphon are you using? The large ones are supposedly for wine and actually aerate as you transfer. I found this out just recently after using them for years.

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5/16", says for beer. Ir you've been using one that aerates as you transfer and make good beer, then me getting some in inadvertently can't be the problem.

togodoug said:

It seems most people think its sanitation. I don't like that idea because I think I'm doing all I can, including changing siphon tubes and fermentation bucket. This brings me to two questions:
1. If its yeast v. bacteria, can someone describe the difference in taste? What does infection taste like and what does bad yeast taste like?
2. Has anyone thought of oxidation? I have noticed some air bubbles in my siphon tube, it can come in where the tube attaches to the auto siphon. I have also sloshed the wort a lot, poured it to transfer bucket while still about 100 degrees and put it in an ice bath and spun it (like a champaigne bottle in an ice chill at a restaurant I can't afford). I wonder if this could be the issue? I've used this method of chilling a few times, some of them came out fine so I doubt it. The air in the siphon hose I wonder about. What would oxidation taste like?

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In light-colored beers the off-flavors produced by oxidation are often described as paper, cardboard or lipstick. In darker beers the maltiness tends to fade and you will get a sherry-like flavor, which some people actually find quite pleasant (including myself in a dubbel!). Oxidation can also cause bread-like or butter-like flavors.

A good way to familiarize yourself with the flavors caused by oxidation is to get a 12 pack of good domestic beer, put half of them in the fridge and half in a hot place. After about 1 week of being in a hot place, take one out and put it in the fridge for 24 hours. Then, taste it side-by-side with one that has been refrigerated the whole time. Repeat the process every week and you will notice a difference in the flavor of the cold-stored beers and the hot-stored beers (this is why I almost want to SCREAM when I see people buying craft beer at a store where it is not refrigerated).

As far as an infection goes, the off-flavors can vary widely. I only had one batch that I'm sure was infected because it continued to ferment in the bottles after having reached FG and fully carbing. Upon opening, the beer gushed out like a fountain and the taste was sour.

A dishwasher is just a breeding ground for beasties that like high temperature and eat soap.. Think about it... continual selective pressure, and a carbon source.. something is gonna be living there, possibly something that likes sugar as well.

Could be your yeast is struggling with either no aeration at the start or not degassing enough of the sulpherous stuff and it becomes prevelant more so when you bottle too quickly as your locking that flavour in that could be turning your beer untasty and given time will become more of a taste issue.

I have a litre bottle seperate from the other bottles as a tester and iv been shaking it several times a day and releasing some gas and its dine the exact same thing...all carbonation gases gone and leaving the bottle filled with the horrible gases that after just 2 days shaking has given me left over off flavours and its now undrinkable.

As it's still filled with some sort of fases and not air (bottle expands on shaking) im assuming its not a danitation or oxygen problem so i think im chasing out the hood gas and leaving the bad stuff behind which is ruining my cider as i opened 2 bottles (500ml) thats been carbed and left to settle properly and they taste way better even though theres still an off flavour but seems to be clearing up.

So best advice i can give is leave them alone as long as possible and try 1 every 3 weeks see if it improves. Also properly aerate your wort and use nutrients at start. Then let it do its thang

Forget the dishwasher. Use a bottle brush in a drill. I can clean, rinse and sanitize a batch of bottles in less than an hour. And I know they are clean.

guys... 11 year old thread. Let it die.