Adding sugar

wow, I normally don't make it to this part of the website - the beer making. I normally stick to wine, mead, and cider.

My poor husband tried his first ever all grain whatever this last weekend as part of a dandelion bitter. The OG ended up being 1.032...

My knee jerk reaction, as a wine maker, was to add sugar, but he shot me down. Purest, I get that - I hate it when people add sugar to cider. However, I'm still left wondering what adding sugar to his batch would have done, and if it was a good or bad idea.

I will say that wine takes forever to age, so would adding sugar mess with the time line and/or smoothness?

CandleWineProject said:

I'm still left wondering what adding sugar to his batch would have done, and if it was a good or bad idea.

I will say that wine takes forever to age, so would adding sugar mess with the time line and/or smoothness?

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Adding table sugar to beer can make it taste "cidery".

I for one believe the "cidery" off flavour is a myth and mostly a result of some other process problem. The big thing sugar will do is dry out your beer. This can be good or bad depending on the goal of the beer in question. The following post goes pretty in depth on the 'cidery' debate.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/ad...ot-going-make-taste-like-freakin-cider-90498/

according to May/June's zymurgy magazine cidery beer has more to do with improper yeast nutrition and subpar yeast pitch rates. depending on how much sugar you add you may need to add some FAN and/or yeast nutrient and make sure you pitch enough yeast for the batch size and OG. I've personally added 3 pounds of table sugar bought from the super market to a Belgian Golden Strong. it turned out just fine.

but word of warning. sugar is for the most part 100% fermentable. this will result in a lower than calculated FG.

both Jawbox0 and TipsyDragon have warned that it would result in a dry, lower than calculated FG. Why is that? I mean, not all of the grain sugars are fermentable, so how could adding sugar suddenly push the FG lower? You still got all that unfermentable grain sugar there... I'm confused.

I still wonder about the time line. Most beer is drinkable in 4-8 weeks, and sugar based fermentation is like 6 months, but the longer the better. Hmm.

CandleWineProject said:

both Jawbox0 and TipsyDragon have warned that it would result in a dry, lower than calculated FG. Why is that? I mean, not all of the grain sugars are fermentable, so how could adding sugar suddenly push the FG lower? You still got all that unfermentable grain sugar there... I'm confused.

I still wonder about the time line. Most beer is drinkable in 4-8 weeks, and sugar based fermentation is like 6 months, but the longer the better. Hmm.

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Suppose your target OG was 1.060 and predicted FG was 1.015--that's a 75% fermentable wort. But you screw up your mash and only get a 1.030, so you top it up to 1.060 with table sugar.

The grains are still about 75% fermentable, so the 30 points (half the desired 60) from grains will ferment down to 7.5 points of unfermentable sugar (half the desired 15). But the sugar is 100% fermentable; the 30 points of sugar will vanish during fermentation and add nothing to the FG.

So you'll go from a 1.060 OG down to a 1.007ish FG--a much drier finish than you wanted on the beer.

SumnerH said:

Suppose your target OG was 1.060 and predicted FG was 1.015--that's a 75% fermentable wort. But you screw up your mash and only get a 1.030, so you top it up to 1.060 with table sugar.

The grains are still about 75% fermentable, so the 30 points (half the desired 60) from grains will ferment down to 7.5 points of unfermentable sugar (half the desired 15). But the sugar is 100% fermentable; the 30 points of sugar will vanish during fermentation and add nothing to the FG.

So you'll go from a 1.060 OG down to a 1.007ish FG--a much drier finish than you wanted on the beer.

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Okay, I'm following that, though I don't have the formulas figured out. I was thinking the grains would force it to still stop at 1.015, but I can see where my thinking was flawed.

Back to the 1.030 sugar free wort, would the final be still be 1.015? I'll have to ask hubby or look at his books when I get home to understand this 75% stuff. My mind wants formulas!

I do love the science behind the "why can't I" questions.

CandleWineProject said:

Okay, I'm following that, though I don't have the formulas figured out. I was thinking the grains would force it to still stop at 1.015, but I can see where my thinking was flawed.

Back to the 1.030 sugar free wort, would the final be still be 1.015? I'll have to ask hubby or look at his books when I get home to understand this 75% stuff. My mind wants formulas!

I do love the science behind the "why can't I" questions.

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No. The 1.030 would finish at 1.0075. For 1.030 to finish at 1.015, you'd need to somehow have changed it so that only 50% of your malt turned into fermentable sugars.

Think of it this way: about 75% of your grain can ferment. You can shift that around some--mash low and long (say, 147F for 90+ minutes), and you might get 90% fermentable. Mash high (say, 159F+) and you might approach 60% fermentables. But if you got conversion, it's basically a fixed percentage given a certain grain bill and mash schedule.

So if 1.060 was going to ferment to 1.015 (75% fermentable), then if you hit 1.040 with a reasonable mash temp, then you'll ferment to somewhere near 1.010 (75%). And if you get an OG of 1.080, you'll ferment to somewhere near 1.020 (75%).

The exact grainbill and mash schedul can shift the fermentable percentage somewhat, but it's not going to go to 100% or 40% without pretty extreme conditions.

Whatever points you add to the gravity from plain simple sugars are close to 100% fermentable, and add zero to the expected FG.

Oye, lost me. It honestly makes it sound like the FG would be 1.007 regardless if there was sugar or not, so might as well add sugar. And it wouldn't be the sugar that dried it out, as it would have done it anyway.

The real issue with sugar drying out beer hasn't been addressed here I think, so I'll give it a try:

Pretty much 100% of the sugar is fermented into alcohol. Alcohol has a lower gravity than water. (I believe it's around 0.800 for pure ethanol.) This addition of alcohol lowers the FG, though it does nothing to reduce residual sugars from the extract. But it makes the beer feel thinner and lighter in body because of the low SG of alcohol. In general, I find that each 1 lb of sugar that I add increases alcohol by a bit over 1%. This 1% increase in alcohol will drop the FG by a couple points because that 1% of volume has a gravity of 0.800, not 1.012 or whatever your final gravity is. Using a calculator, in fact, a 1.012 FG with a 1% abv increase due to sugar becomes a 1.0988 FG -- pretty much 1.010. Add enough sugar to boost abv by 2% and you are down to 1.008 FG. All the dextrins from the malt are still in there, not fermented, but the added alcohol thins out the body because alcohol is thinner than water.

Hope that helps.

CandleWineProject said:

Oye, lost me. It honestly makes it sound like the FG would be 1.007 regardless if there was sugar or not, so might as well add sugar. And it wouldn't be the sugar that dried it out, as it would have done it anyway.

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your right the FG will most likely be somewhere around 1.007 no matter if you add sugar or not. adding sugar at this point will only give you more alcohol at the end. just make sure you don't go over board and if you do add a spoon full of yeast nutrient.

each yeast has an attenuation rating. it usually says on the package somewhere or on the manufacturers website. typically the rating is 75% but some yeast have a higher rating some have a lower rating. this rating is based on an average fermentation in an average wort with an average selection of the yeast in question. so to get a prediction of what the FG might be you take the attenuation rating of the yeast and multiply it by the OG and subtract that from the OG.

example 1:

OG = 1.060
yeast attenuation rating = 70%

FG = 60 - (60 * 0.7) = 18

predicted FG = 1.018

example 2:

OG from grain = 1.060
OG from sugar = 1.030
total OG = 1.090
yeast attenuation rating = 70%

FG = 90 - (90 * 0.7) = 27

incorrect predicted FG = 1.027

FG = (90 - 30) - ((90 - 30) * 0.7) = 18

correct predicted FG = 1.018

example 3:

OG from grain = 1.060
OG from lactose = 1.030
total OG = 1.090
yeast attenuation rating = 70%

FG = 90 - (90 * 0.7) = 27

incorrect predicted FG = 1.027

FG = 90 - ((90 - 30) * 0.7) = 48

correct predicted FG = 1.048

there are any number of reason you will not hit a predicted FG reading so don't be concerned if you don't hit 1.007 exactly.

Hey Tipsy,

Your calculations are based on the notion that the alcohol produced by the sugar is the same gravity as water (that the FG for that part of the brew is 1.000). This isn't correct. Ethanol has a SG of 0.800 -- much lighter than water. So for each 1% abv that comes from sugar, you will lower your FG by about 0.002. In your example above, this would lower your actual FG from 1.027 to about 1.020, because 1.030 worth of sugar will raise your alcohol by almost 4%, thereby lowering your FG by 0.007 to 0.008.

mkling said:

Hey Tipsy,

Your calculations are based on the notion that the alcohol produced by the sugar is the same gravity as water (that the FG for that part of the brew is 1.000). This isn't correct. Ethanol has a SG of 0.800 -- much lighter than water. So for each 1% abv that comes from sugar, you will lower your FG by about 0.002. In your example above, this would lower your actual FG from 1.027 to about 1.020, because 1.030 worth of sugar will raise your alcohol by almost 4%, thereby lowering your FG by 0.007 to 0.008.

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but you still get my point about the change in FG. besides i'm not 100% convinced your right. i agree that alcohol is lighter than water and will lower the FG but i assume (possibly incorrectly) that that is already factored into the yeast attenuation rating. also this is why when calculating the ABV you don't use a constant to multiply by the change in SG.

mkling said:

The real issue with sugar drying out beer hasn't been addressed here I think, so I'll give it a try:

Pretty much 100% of the sugar is fermented into alcohol. Alcohol has a lower gravity than water. (I believe it's around 0.800 for pure ethanol.) This addition of alcohol lowers the FG, though it does nothing to reduce residual sugars from the extract. But it makes the beer feel thinner and lighter in body because of the low SG of alcohol. In general, I find that each 1 lb of sugar that I add increases alcohol by a bit over 1%. This 1% increase in alcohol will drop the FG by a couple points because that 1% of volume has a gravity of 0.800, not 1.012 or whatever your final gravity is. Using a calculator, in fact, a 1.012 FG with a 1% abv increase due to sugar becomes a 1.0988 FG -- pretty much 1.010. Add enough sugar to boost abv by 2% and you are down to 1.008 FG. All the dextrins from the malt are still in there, not fermented, but the added alcohol thins out the body because alcohol is thinner than water.

Hope that helps.

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Okay, so it would reach the same dryness, but the mouth wouldn't be as full. I get that.

Might want to edit the post so that it reads 1.00988. That 1.0988 makes it sound like fermentation hasn't even started! Also, is that 1 lb of sugar per 5 gallons?

CandleWineProject said:

both Jawbox0 and TipsyDragon have warned that it would result in a dry, lower than calculated FG. Why is that? I mean, not all of the grain sugars are fermentable, so how could adding sugar suddenly push the FG lower? You still got all that unfermentable grain sugar there... I'm confused.

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Because pure alcohol has a gravity of about 0.70

TipsyDragon said:

but you still get my point about the change in FG. besides i'm not 100% convinced your right. i agree that alcohol is lighter than water and will lower the FG but i assume (possibly incorrectly) that that is already factored into the yeast attenuation rating. also this is why when calculating the ABV you don't use a constant to multiply by the change in SG.

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No, hes 100% right.


Try fermenting all sugar. You're going to end up with an FG of about .900.


The 75% you're using is an estimate based on an all malt grain bill. Its irrelevant when you're not talking malt. You're also ignoring that adding sugar increases volume.

Synovia said:

No, hes 100% right.


Try fermenting all sugar. You're going to end up with an FG of about .900.


The 75% you're using is an estimate based on an all malt grain bill. Its irrelevant when you're not talking malt. You're also ignoring that adding sugar increases volume.

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Right you are Synovia. If you put into BeerSmith or another calculator 100% attenuation, it would only take you down to 1.000, not 0.900. And this is all because the attenuation percentage that we commonly use is the "apparent attenuation" and not the "real attenuation". Real attenuation is much lower because of the gravity-of-alcohol issue. So for instance when I ferment meads, I commonly get FGs of 0.994. For a 1.070 OG, this causes me to get 108.5% attenuation -- but this apparent attenuation, not real attenuation which is 89%.