Spa Panel vs GFI Breaker?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

rack04

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
457
Reaction score
5
Location
Dallas
I have priced the two options and they are within $5 of each other if you factor in the NEMA 14-30P power cable, NEMA 14-30R receptacle, and miscellaneous 10AWG THHN stranded wire and hardware. Other than the cost, what are the benefits of using the spa panel vs gfi breaker?

For the price comparison I used the following:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...250P&storeId=10051&relatedSearch=UG412RMW250P

http://www.appliancerepair.homedepot.com/PartDetail/Power-Cord/5305510955/959343

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...langId=-1&keyword=R50-00278-000&storeId=10051

vs

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...&keyword=HOM230GFI&storeId=10051#.UD0sjaDaGYJ
 
We are discussing a similar matter at work in regard to GFCI breakers.

The GFCI breaker has the advantage of protecting the entire circuit past the load center and sports a solid ground connection for reference; but the disadvantage of a local reset provided by a spa panel.

The spa panel protects the circuits plugged into it but not the cabling routed to it from the load center; but has the advantage of a local reset.
(keep in mind you will need to buy a 2P normal breaker for your load center to feed it if you don't already have one, could add another $20)
 
That spa panel is fifty amps. You will have to feed it with 6 gauge nm-b or 8 THHN wire which is expensive and very stiff to work with. Just keep that in mind.
 
WroxBrew said:
That spa panel does not come with a breaker. I'm assuming you would put a 30 amp gfci in it and not a 50 amp.

The spa panel comes with a 50 amp gfci breaker.
 
I use a spa panel because I get my 240 volt power from a 3-wire dryer outlet. When I'm using the dryer, I don't want GFCI protection because I think (haven't actually tried it) that the dryer would trip the GFCI.
 
DeafSmith said:
I use a spa panel because I get my 240 volt power from a 3-wire dryer outlet. When I'm using the dryer, I don't want GFCI protection because I think (haven't actually tried it) that the dryer would trip the GFCI.

I will be adding the gfci to my 4 wire dryer circuit. Why would a dryer trip the gfci?
 
rack04 said:
I will be adding the gfci to my 4 wire dryer circuit. Why would a dryer trip the gfci?

GFCIs sometimes don't like motors, especially older ones. There can be currant leakage that doesn't affect anything as far as function is concerned, but a GFCI could pick up.
 
WroxBrew said:
That spa panel is fifty amps. You will have to feed it with 6 gauge nm-b or 8 THHN wire which is expensive and very stiff to work with. Just keep that in mind.

You don't have to feed the spa panel with #6 as long as the upstream breaker is sized correctly. In my area #10 is good for 30A, so you could tap off your dryer circuit with #10, and feed the spa panel with that. Even if the 50A spa breaker is oversized, the gfci function will still work fine. Then you don't have to worry about your dryer tripping a gfci breaker.
 
The Spa Panel can provide several benefits.

1) You are not modifying the wiring within your home. This means that you do not have to pull a permit and have it inspected when completed.

2) The GFCI breaker can be located much closer to your brew area. This provides security for situations that 'might' seem wrong. With the breaker close to your brewery there is no hesitation in hitting it. The alternative is running a flight of stairs to the mains panel? You would never do it until smoke appeared. No?

3) Using the Spa Panel allows you to use an existing 3 wire outlet (Dryer or Range) to provide 240V and 120V power (with ground) to your brewery without rewiring your house.

Now: consider the expense for the various situations and then you need to decide. If the house/wiring is pre 2002 NEC code, the decision is really simple for me to recommend. Spa Panel every time. This way the house wiring is not being modified in any way and remains within code as is... Plug in devices do not alter the building wiring or the code.

P-J
 
Now: consider the expense for the various situations and then you need to decide. If the house/wiring is pre 2002 NEC code, the decision is really simple for me to recommend. Spa Panel every time. This way the house wiring is not being modified in any way and remains within code as is... Plug in devices do not alter the building wiring or the code.

While I understand your point about being code compliant, with the new work, there's something I've never understood. My house was built in the 1920's. When we had an addition installed we had a bunch of knob and tube replaced, but there was still Romex in many spots. Code in my area requires metal conduit. The inspector looked at the new work, but said nothing about the Romex that was already in place and clearly visible.

Not trying to jack your thread, but it's hard to understand how/why code compliance works in an older house that often has a mix of wiring in it.
 
I'm personally a fan of the gfci breaker, why buy extra things you don't need. You end up doing a bit of extra work. You have to mount the spa box, then pipe out of it to a box for your receptacle. If you just use your receptacle its only a 5 min breaker change.
 
grandequeso said:
I'm personally a fan of the gfci breaker, why buy extra things you don't need. You end up doing a bit of extra work. You have to mount the spa box, then pipe out of it to a box for your receptacle. If you just use your receptacle its only a 5 min breaker change.

Agreed but now in worried about my dryer tripping the breaker.
 
I doubt it will, nuisance tripping used to be a bigger problem with gfci's, but in the last 5 years or so they have improved their design a whole lot. Think about it the spa and what not else that people normally use these gfci breakers on have pumps (motors) and heating elements in them just like your dryer does.
 
Well, I have an old Pushmatic panel. It had no extra space and I couldnt even find a 30a GFCI for it so it was a no brainer for me to do the spa panel.
 
grandequeso said:
I doubt it will, nuisance tripping used to be a bigger problem with gfci's, but in the last 5 years or so they have improved their design a whole lot. Think about it the spa and what not else that people normally use these gfci breakers on have pumps (motors) and heating elements in them just like your dryer does.

Ya, but spas and hot tubs are always (or should be) on a GFCI, so the motors used in them won't trip anything. That's not a requirement for a dryer. If you have a relatively new dryer, I would bet your ok. But I wouldn't want to take the chance. As for extra work, if your using your dryer plug right now (I think I read that right), your dryer probably isn't far from your brew area. Just put a dryer plug on the end of a length of #10 4 wire SOW wire or equivalent (extension cord wire) and hook it straight into the spa panel by your brew stand. Then each time you brew you can un coil the wire, plug it into your dryer outlet, and voila, your in business. Not sure if that would work, but an idea anyway, one that would require minimal electrical work and no permits.
 
Ya, but spas and hot tubs are always (or should be) on a GFCI, so the motors used in them won't trip anything. That's not a requirement for a dryer. If you have a relatively new dryer, I would bet your ok. But I wouldn't want to take the chance. As for extra work, if your using your dryer plug right now (I think I read that right), your dryer probably isn't far from your brew area. Just put a dryer plug on the end of a length of #10 4 wire SOW wire or equivalent (extension cord wire) and hook it straight into the spa panel by your brew stand. Then each time you brew you can un coil the wire, plug it into your dryer outlet, and voila, your in business. Not sure if that would work, but an idea anyway, one that would require minimal electrical work and no permits.

That is what I will probably do to save some headaches if the dryer does trip the gfci. One question though. I see a lot of people recommending 10/4 for a 30 amp circuit but everything that I am seeing states that 10/4 is rated at 25 amps. I think I would need to go with 8/4. $$$
 
Ya, where I am (Canada) #10 is rated for 30A, but thats probably different in the states. You'd have to check with someone local. There's often special situations and exceptions which that you may fall under, so check with someone who knows the code.
 
I think the 10/4 being rated at 24 or 25 amps has to do with what it's being used for. If for example it's being used to run two separate circuits (two hots, two neutrals), or three phase with neutral, then what you've got there is more than three current carrying conductors in a cable. So usually it gets derated to 80% or 24 amps, or rounding 'up' 25 amps. If it's for a multiwire branch circuit with ground, then you've got only three current carrying conductors there (two hots plus the neutral, the ground is not a current carrying conductor - at least not under normal use and you hope it stays that way).
 
FYI, I have a brand new dryer, and it would trip the GFI breaker, had to open up space and put it on a separate circuit
 
The big cities are all like that, they have their own special codes for everything, including electrical work. Sometimes it is things like requiring armored cable or conduit in buildings more than two stories high, stuff like that.
 
And then it often depends on the separate inspectors and their interpretations of each code. It kind of sucks sometimes.
 
The Spa Panel can provide several benefits.

1) You are not modifying the wiring within your home. This means that you do not have to pull a permit and have it inspected when completed.

2) The GFCI breaker can be located much closer to your brew area. This provides security for situations that 'might' seem wrong. With the breaker close to your brewery there is no hesitation in hitting it. The alternative is running a flight of stairs to the mains panel? You would never do it until smoke appeared. No?

3) Using the Spa Panel allows you to use an existing 3 wire outlet (Dryer or Range) to provide 240V and 120V power (with ground) to your brewery without rewiring your house.

Now: consider the expense for the various situations and then you need to decide. If the house/wiring is pre 2002 NEC code, the decision is really simple for me to recommend. Spa Panel every time. This way the house wiring is not being modified in any way and remains within code as is... Plug in devices do not alter the building wiring or the code.

P-J

My house was built in 2007 and my brewery is going to be about 25 ft. from my panel box, I will need around 40 ft. of wire. I will be installing a seperate 50 amp breaker for the brewery(brewery will require 50 amp service). It will also have the E - stop button on the control panel. Would there still be an advantage to having the spa panel and a 50amp non gfi breaker over the gfi breaker in the box?
 
BWN said:
My house was built in 2007 and my brewery is going to be about 25 ft. from my panel box, I will need around 40 ft. of wire. I will be installing a seperate 50 amp breaker for the brewery(brewery will require 50 amp service). It will also have the E - stop button on the control panel. Would there still be an advantage to having the spa panel and a 50amp non gfi breaker over the gfi breaker in the box?

At that point price is your biggest factor. Is a gfci breaker or a spa panel cheaper? The op didn't have room for a new breaker, so a spa panel would most likely be easier. But if you have a new panel (thus usually cheaper breakers) and room in it, it all comes down to price between the two options.
 
Back
Top