Outdoor brewing and sunlight

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bierandbikes

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Stewart's Run Farm, near Fredericksburg
I am about to move from partial mash to all grain brewing. This means moving the operation outside as I will be using a propane burner.

I know that sunlight will skunk a beer in a matter of minutes. What happens when I am boiling my wort in an uncovered kettle outdoors? That is an hour or more of direct exposure to sunlight. And, once the boil is complete, the immersion chiller will be hooked up to the garden hose for more exposure.

This is bothering me as I tend to be very scientific and careful about the whole process. Please help.

Paul
 
I am about to move from partial mash to all grain brewing. This means moving the operation outside as I will be using a propane burner.

I know that sunlight will skunk a beer in a matter of minutes. What happens when I am boiling my wort in an uncovered kettle outdoors? That is an hour or more of direct exposure to sunlight. And, once the boil is complete, the immersion chiller will be hooked up to the garden hose for more exposure.

This is bothering me as I tend to be very scientific and careful about the whole process. Please help.

Paul

you want to be totally relaxed? brew at night, far from the irritating rays of the sun.... and the maddening crowds.
 
It is my understanding that the skunking was due to a chemical reaction with the hops. Is this accurate or not? If so, what role does yeast play in the reaction?

I guess my nerdiness is showing on this one...

In the end, all that matters is that I don't have to worry about it.
 
Yeah it is the hops + light that skunks the beer.

To answer your question, you don't need to worry at all. If there was a problem with it then many of us would not be brewing outdoors. I would rather make 5 gallons of tasty than 10 gallons of gross and if that meant brewing on the stove then so be it.

I don't know where you heard light can skunk a beer in minutes that is just ridiculous sounding to me. Drinking beers outside on a hot sunny days is one of the best times to do it and I don't see people pouring out their coronas after sitting in the sun for a few minutes because they are skunked up.
 
Well they should be.

The real question is, why do certain breweries insist on using clear/green bottles?
 
You will be fine brewing outside. I still do and it was 8 degrees outside ( I was in the garage) the other day. I know you say ur scientific, but sometimes we tend to go overboard Instead we should RDWHAHB!!

Cheers :mug:
 
tekkydave said:
Well they should be.

The real question is, why do certain breweries insist on using clear/green bottles?

Not sure on the answer but I tend to avoid beers in clear bottles.
 
If you're worried about brewing outside because of sunlight I can't imagine what else will worry you! :eek: - I don't mean that insultingly, just being a bit silly.

But honestly, there is no worry here at all. I'd say hundreds of thousands of brewers brew outside in the sun, myself included, with no ill effects. I've brewed indoors until several months back and notice no difference - well except for a marked improvement in my brews.

Skunking takes far longer than an hour boiling in the kettle. Also, the kettle only has a small surface area of exposure, unless you have some unheard of clear glass kettle. Then there's the fact that many beers are bottled in green or clear glass bottles and sit for weeks/months in lit fridges often with little to no super dramatic effect, though I would never bottle in them anyway personally - it's all brown bottles for me. And it's not just sunlight, it's the UV in light that is said to cause it so fluorescent lights are bad too.


Rev.
 
big breweries use hop stabilizers or something like that.

Miller uses hop stabilizers. Other breweries just have marketing departments that like the green or clear bottles, and those beers WILL skunk in minutes if you stick them outside on a clear summer day. Everyone thinks of Heineken, Corona, etc. but Pilsner Urquell is just as much to blame.
 
the reason breweries use colored bottles is for the light exposure in the months they might spend on the shelves, not the minutes spent bottling. almost all of us brew during the day. i have for years, and no skunkiness yet...
 
Other breweries just have marketing departments that like the green or clear bottles, and those beers WILL skunk in minutes if you stick them outside on a clear summer day.

Do you have irrefutable data and or links to back up this claim that hop skunking will happen in "minutes" in daylight? If so please do share. It's quite amusing being hops themselves grow in sunlight and are harvested in daylight, and yeah I know they haven't been isomerized yet. Not saying skunking is a myth, not at all, but come on... minutes???


Rev.
 
Do you have irrefutable data and or links to back up this claim that hop skunking will happen in "minutes" in daylight? If so please do share. It's quite amusing being hops themselves grow in sunlight and are harvested in daylight. Not saying skunking is a myth, not at all, but come on... minutes???


Rev.


Well the reaction occurs with iso-alpha acids, which you don't get until you boil the hops or perform some other process to isomerize the alpha acids.

I have seen several experiments in the past, and seem to recall a noted brewer (maybe Matt Brynildson?) relating notable skunking in his beer as the pint made its way to his table across a long sunny patio area over the course of 5-10 minutes.

And Basic Brewing did an episode about this a while back, as well. They get pretty notable skunking after letting the beers sit out in the sun for about 45 minutes in this video:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZuHmglowJA]Basic Brewing Video - Skunking Beers - September 14, 2007 - YouTube[/ame]
 
Do you have irrefutable data and or links to back up this claim that hop skunking will happen in "minutes" in daylight? If so please do share. It's quite amusing being hops themselves grow in sunlight and are harvested in daylight, and yeah I know they haven't been isomerized yet. Not saying skunking is a myth, not at all, but come on... minutes???


Rev.

Hop skunking, in beer, WILL happen in minutes in sunlight.

The basic brewing guys proved it here....

 
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Well the reaction occurs with iso-alpha acids, which you don't get until you boil the hops or perform some other process to isomerize the alpha acids.

I have seen several experiments in the past, and seem to recall a noted brewer (maybe Matt Brynildson?) relating notable skunking in his beer as the pint made its way to his table across a long sunny patio area over the course of 5-10 minutes.

LOL. great minds think alike.
 
I use clear and green bottles, but all of my bottles are boxed up until ready to drink. Never had a skunker!
 
An in depth explanation of how skunking occurs, and why some beers in clear bottles DON'T skunk.

From the Washington Post.

Only recently (in 2001) did we figure out how light causes skunkiness. Chemists at the University of North Carolina and Ghent University in Belgium found that when exposed to light, the alpha acids in hops break down into free radicals that then react with sulfur-containing proteins to make a chemical called 3-methyl-2-butene-1-thiol, which is virtually identical to the principal constituent of skunk juice. Any time you see "thiol" in the name of a chemical, you can bet it's going to stink. Humans can detect this particular thiol at concentrations as low as one-billionth of a gram per 12-ounce bottle of beer. Apparently, skunks really know their chemistry.

So if skunkiness is caused by light acting on chemicals in hops, and if virtually all beers contain hops, how does Miller get away with using colorless bottles for its Genuine Draft, which has replaced its High Life? (It's the same recipe, but Genuine Draft is cold filtered instead of being pasteurized, as High Life was.)

Chemical trickery, that's how. Instead of using actual hops for bittering the beer, Miller uses a chemically modified form of hops' alpha acids known by several brand names, among them Tetrahop Gold. It does not produce 3-methyl-2-butene-1-thiol when struck by light, but according to the Ghent chemists, it can still produce rotten-egg odors. Uncolored bottles are cheaper than colored ones, however, so Miller's fiscal folks apparently prevailed over their flavor mavens.
 
And here's a timed experiment of skunking of various beers.

Skunking Beer Experiment - Results

Curious just how quickly sunlight can destroy a beer? Here are the results from our beer skunking experiment. You can try this very experiment in your own home! Note that we did these tastings blind, but I list the results in order so you can read through without confusion.

Corona Light - clear bottle
The bottle not exposed to sunlight was perfectly clean smelling and had a fresh flavor. This was the control bottle and it tasted quite fine. The bottle exposed to sunlight for 1/2 hour was clearly toast. It had a bad smell right from the bottle, and a bad, off flavor when drunk from a glass. It got worse. When we had the bottle exposed to sunlight for 3 hours, it was awful. The skunky smell was very obvious from the bottle and the flavor was clearly wrong.

Heineken Light - green bottle
A green bottle does NOTHING at all to prevent skunking. The wavelengths that cause skunking in beer go right through green glass. The control bottle of Heineken had a very light flavor and aroma. It hadn't been harmed at all. The 1/2 hour exposed to sunlight bottle was clearly skunked. You could smell it from the bottle and taste the bad flavor in the glass. What was impressive was how awful the 3 hour sunlight bottle. This was even worse than the Corona Light - a very strong skunky aroma, a very sharp flavor.

Miller Lite - clear bottle
The first, no-sunlight bottle had a fresh flavor and light flavor. Impressively, while the 1/2 hour and 3 hour versions did have a noticeable off aroma and flavor to them, both were *far* less than the Corona or Heineken. We're heard rumors that Miller has a special technique in how they brew to keep their hops from being able to get skunked. Maybe it's true!

Michelob Ultra Amber - brown bottle
Brown bottles don't totally prevent skunking, but they do slow it down quite a bit. We were impressed with how it helped. The non-sunlight bottle had lovely, gentle flavors. In fact our beer maker commented that he was quite impressed that this was a low carb beer. The 1/2 hour sunlit bottle seemed to be about the same, with maybe a tiny hint of change. Even the 3 hour in sunlight bottle, while it seemed a little "off", didn't seem to smell or taste skunky. We could tell that it was a bit different, but it didn't seem "bad".

Smithwick's - brown bottle
This was our control bottle, it is not low carb. This is an Irish beer. The one not exposed to sunlight was fresh and lovely tasting. The one left out for 1/2 hour was a tiny bit different, but just about the same. The one out for 3 hours did have an off aroma, but it was mild.

Results
We proved quite thoroughly that beer can be skunked in only 1/2 hour of exposure to sunlight, and that both Corona and Heineken are extremely sensitive to light. We were very impressed with how brown bottles helped to protect beer against this harm - although it should be noted that if you pour your brown bottle beer into a clear glass, it is now exposed to sunlight :) We were also very curious to learn what Miller Lite does to its beer to help keep it safe! I'll let you know when I hear back from them.

Feel free to ask me questions about this experiment, or to try it out for yourself!

NOTE: I wrote Miller to ask them how they achieved these great results. Here is their response:

We currently only use hops grown in the United States. The major growing areas are in Oregon, Washington, and Idaho. Some of the types of hops we use include: Cascade, Cluster, Fuggles, Galena and Mt.Hood. Unfortunately, because it is proprietary information, we cannot disclose which hops are used in which brands.

In addition bottled beer exposed to sun or other light sources can undergo a slight photochemical change that sometimes can give the beer a skunky aroma, however, the beer would not get skunky. It would take approximately one minute for this change to take place. Cans provide the most protection from light, and generally product in amber bottles is LESS likely to suffer the effects of light than beer packaged in clear or green bottles. The exceptions are all Miller products that are sold in clear bottles. Miller's understanding and use of special hops enables us to produce a beer that is much more light stable. However, other subtle flavor changes can occur with exposure to too much light. So, keeping any bottled beer (clear or amber) out of direct sunlight helps preserve that just brewed flavor of our products.

Beer is most susceptible to light exposure in the 290 - 425 nanometer range. Amber glass does an excellent job of preventing light from reacting with product in this range.

From a visitor: "It's not about their secret All-American special hops, they use Tetrahop Gold(TM), which is a chemically modified hop extract. The WaPo did a story that explains it."

Is any of this data irrefutable enough????
 
I don't know where you heard light can skunk a beer in minutes that is just ridiculous sounding to me. Drinking beers outside on a hot sunny days is one of the best times to do it and I don't see people pouring out their coronas after sitting in the sun for a few minutes because they are skunked up.

that's cuz corona's skunked when ya buy it.

i've had a brew (more than one brew) sitting in a glass in direct sunlight and it skunked IN THE GLASS. it wasn't skunked when i poured, or when i drank the first half of it, but after i sat there with it soaking up the sun, it was skunked before it was warm.

that said, it won't happen in unfermented wort. see revvy's text wall ^^^^^ up there.
 
that's cuz corona's skunked when ya buy it.

i've had a brew (more than one brew) sitting in a glass in direct sunlight and it skunked IN THE GLASS. it wasn't skunked when i poured, or when i drank the first half of it, but after i sat there with it soaking up the sun, it was skunked before it was warm.

that said, it won't happen in unfermented wort. see revvy's text wall ^^^^^ up there.

I live in El Paso, TX.. When we were teens we used to hop the border to Juarez, Mexico to go to the bars. The Coronas there are a lot more skunky than those you buy in the states.. I'm guessing they stored them in direct light. Most people around here actually like it that way.
 
weird. i can't stand the stuff, never could. seems like they bottle in clear glass so it becomes light struck, intentionally.

I believe they do. I think they consider it part of the character of their beer.. I drink one maybe twice a year just to go down memory lane and remember the good old days when you could walk over the bridge to Mexico without getting shot!!
 
Thanks for all the great info. After the first couple of replies I thought I was crazy, but then I remembered where I got the info. In Randy Mosher's book, "Tasting Beer", (page 61), he states in regards to the skunky aroma,

"Formed by a reaction of a precursor in hop bittering compounds (isohumulones) to blue light. May happen in a matter of seconds, even in a fluorescent-lit cooler case.

I believe Revvy had the answer that I needed for my initial question...this reaction only occurs in fermented beer, not in the unfermented wort.

Great info all around. Brown bottles it is, and no Corona or Heiniken skunk brew for me.
 
This probably irrevelant, but before I had the fermenters for 10 gallon batches I was brewing double batches of 5. I made two 5 gallon batches of the same beer (canned wort kits), with the same yeast. Pitched both yeast same time, racked both on same time, bottled both on same time. Both were stored in the same dark closet, at the same temp.
One batch came out a little skunky, while the other batch came out great. Wasn't a big deal I gave the skunky beers to my friend, he said the first few bottles he could hardly drink them, but when he had them all gone he called me up wanted to know if I could make it again, lol.
 
I believe Revvy had the answer that I needed for my initial question...this reaction only occurs in fermented beer, not in the unfermented wort.

I know when we're doing something new we tend to overthink and worry. But something to realize, in brewing or anything new, is not to lose sight of our own common sense. In this case if you read and see and hear that folks are brewing outside, then you kinda have to think, that what you're concerned about (in your case skunking) must not be a problem, or folks wouldn't be doing it, would we?

In the case of this hobby, we wouldn't be spending out time and money standing around our turkey fryers, in broad day light if our beer was dying while we were doing it.

The American Homebrewer's Association wouldn't be hosting "Teach a friend to brew day" if it was a problem. It would be called "Huddle around your turkey fryer NIGHT" or something instead. :)

It wouldn't look like this....

30611_387808174066_620469066_3994545_5827524_n.jpg


30611_387808119066_620469066_3994537_118637_n.jpg


:mug:
 
Well the reaction occurs with iso-alpha acids, which you don't get until you boil the hops or perform some other process to isomerize the alpha acids

I did point out in my post, "and yeah I know they haven't been isomerized yet."

But this info is good, and that's what I wanted to see - irrefutable data, and you guys certainly delivered :mug:

I still say though that I personally haven't experienced such fast skunking and I've drank outside on hot summer days in beer gardens in Germany drinking weizens, pilsners, etc in german Maß glasses. Again, I never said it was a myth, I just think it's blown a little bit out of proportion and still do.


Rev.
 
I agree with the data but also that this is blown out of proportion. I have had parties with beers in an open ice cooler for hours without skunking at all. There is a difference between CAN skunk in a matter of minutes and will ABSOLUTELY skunk.

I put most beers in a glass in the summer, nothing skunks when I'm on my porch and I tend to take more than a few minutes to relax, BBQ, and drink a beer. Can anyone explain why beer DOESNT skunk in the sunlight for hours at a time? and I mean that in a truly curious way, I'm not talking down or disagreeing, but I rarely have ever had a beer skunk in sunlight.
 
Common sense was in place. Just trying to piece this all together. I never would have given it a second thought until I read Mosher's book. I was curious why it is possible to brew outside without ill effects. I was not sure if I would get an answer like, don't brew in direct sunlight if possible...stay in the garage or under some shade...or just brew it and don't worry about sunlight.

The science of brewing is interesting. I guess that is the German in me showing itself.

BTW...I too have sat in many a German biergarten and drank wonderful Weizen. However, it is a rare day in Germany to get a perfectly clear sky. Nonetheless, I always attributed the lack of skunking to the speed at which my glass emptied. I think a future question is going to be looking for a good Weizen recipe.

Paul
 
I know when we're doing something new we tend to overthink and worry. But something to realize, in brewing or anything new, is not to lose sight of our own common sense. In this case if you read and see and hear that folks are brewing outside, then you kinda have to think, that what you're concerned about (in your case skunking) must not be a problem, or folks wouldn't be doing it, would we?

Makes sense to me. But if direct sunlight effects isomerized alpha acids, how come it doesn't skunk wort with isomerized alpha acids, say 30+ minutes into a standard boil? Is it because not enough sunlight can get through the dense wort + kettle perhaps? People have said in this thread that skunking can only occur in fermented beer... how come? This is just a curiosity thing for me at this point. Perhaps I am not understanding something that was already pointed out in this thread. Cheers and thanks!
 
It probably depends a lot on the beer style as well. A yeasty hefe with very low ibu's probably wouldn't show it much however Corona, Hieneken etc while not being heavily hopped don't have much yeast or malt flavor to cover up any skunking. And like in that video, an IPA or pale will be noticeably skunked very quickly due to the abundance of hops in the beer.
 
It probably depends a lot on the beer style as well. A yeasty hefe with very low ibu's probably wouldn't show it much however Corona, Hieneken etc while not being heavily hopped don't have much yeast or malt flavor to cover up any skunking. And like in that video, an IPA or pale will be noticeably skunked very quickly due to the abundance of hops in the beer.

It doesn't matter in terms of brewing outside.....skunking only happens in FERMENTED beer, not during brewing of beer.
 
Ya I realize that. I should have been specific in that I was referring to people comments that they sit outside drinking beer with no perceived skunking.

That totally happens. I drink a ton of pils in the summer. If the sun hits the glass at all, I can begin to get skunk. More than a few mins in the sun and it tastes like Corona.
 
Ya I realize that. I should have been specific in that I was referring to people comments that they sit outside drinking beer with no perceived skunking.

I know, I just wanted to make sure for all the nervous noobs that hover over "worst case scenario" threads like flies on poop WHAT exactly you were referring to. Since for one thing, you bumped a thread that was dormant for 8 months to make that comment. Once threads like these surface again, every scared new brewer will jump on them. It's human nature to look for things that will confirm to someone's worst fears. An threads like this are the most popular, because it's human nature to look for things to worry about, when we're dealing with something new.
 
That totally happens. I drink a ton of pils in the summer. If the sun hits the glass at all, I can begin to get skunk. More than a few mins in the sun and it tastes like Corona.

I've never actually experienced this. Being in El Paso, TX we pretty much never drink in direct sunlight. You'll melt long before your beer skunks up! :cross:
 
Ya I zombie'd this one pretty bad. I was doing a search to answer my own questions and having read the earlier comments about the skunking only occurring in fermented beer I was happy. Then I for some reason forgot that it was an old thread from a search and replied like an idiot lol. Now it lives again!
 
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