Bru'n Water Munich Profile Help

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-MG-

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I'm trying to brew a Munich Dunkel and match the water profile. I have in the link to the spreadsheet my city's water report and where I have gotten with the calculations. This is using my recipe I'm trying to use as well as the water volumes.

The more I increase chalk, the higher the pH goes, and I'm struggling to get that Munich profile, but also have pH in the right arena. Can someone offer some suggestions here?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6BhUOfLAW-Ed0M5M21XY3UzWUU/edit?usp=sharing

Google shows it in their format, it looks like it allows people to download it though.
 
Thanks Kaiser.

I actually just started using brewersfriend.com and tried the calc, just not use to it and just need more time with it. Here is my info:

Ca: 20.5
Mg: 13.1
Na: 13.2
Bicarbonate: 85.9
So4: 21.1
Chloride: 33.4
pH: 8.2

5# Dark Munich L=10
5# Light Munich L=6
.13# Chocolate L=350
.5# Caramunich L=39
.13# Carafa 1 L=340

1.5 qts/lb water.
4.03 strike water
9.67 into the boil for ending ~6 gallon into fermenter.
 
I subscribe to the theory that if the salts,etc are just for taste add them to the boil and not the mash or sparge water. Get a mash profile with the correct amount of Ca(for mashing not for flavor), and maybe Mg. Then make sure your pH is correct (with acid additions). Mash and sparge, and then add your chalk or whatever else to the boil to get the flavor profile you desire. I think this should simplify the regulation of mash pH, which is the most important part. Anyone think this is a good idea?
 
I think this should simplify the regulation of mash pH, which is the most important part. Anyone think this is a good idea?

That might be true for Gypsum and calcium chloride but chalk is generally added to correct the mash pH and should be added to the mash.

Further more, a proper mash pH generally leads to an appropriate wort pH in the kettle. As a result you don't want to add stuff to the kettle that changes its pH unless that's your intend. If you want to add salts at only one step, add them to the mash.

Kai
 
I'm new to brewing water chemistry, so I want to make it as simple as possible to control mashing and sparing. In general, isn't mash and sparge pH more important than boil pH? Once the wort is in the kettle, starch conversion and tannin extraction issues are not a concern, which I think is the main reason to control mash and sparge pH. What are the effects of boil pH? Wort clarity, color, hop extraction? My aim at boil additions is to adjust flavor profile with salts, never used chalk. What would be the taste effect of adding carbonate? Forgive my ignorance.
 
I'm not familiar with boil pH and will let someone else comment on it.

Kaiser -

Being green to water additions still, I struggle a little bit with the format of the water calc. It seems to me I should put my water in, than the grist, and what my target is, before being asked to put in salt additions (which you can do, just not presented in that order).

The other question is regarding additions to both mash and sparge? Bru'n water says not to add for example Chalk to your sparge and substitute Gypsum in the sparge. How do you see working this for this calculator?

BTW - really like what brewersfriend is doing with calculators like this, especially the yeast calculator and the fantastic explanations below it.

The hardest part I am finding is finding that balancing act between trying to match the water profile.
 
Being green to water additions still, I struggle a little bit with the format of the water calc. It seems to me I should put my water in, than the grist, and what my target is, before being asked to put in salt additions (which you can do, just not presented in that order).

That is a comment we are hearing a lot and I think we’ll change the order in which the fields are presented. The current order is heavily influenced by my approach to water treatment. I don’t care all that much about target water comparison since I can easily eyeball the results. However, this is not how most brewers are approaching it and that’s why it makes sense to change it.


The other question is regarding additions to both mash and sparge? Bru'n water says not to add for example Chalk to your sparge and substitute Gypsum in the sparge. How do you see working this for this calculator?

It makes sense to omit the pH raising salts from the sparge water but I didn’t want to keep the user from doing that if that’s what’s intended. Currently mash and sparge salts are not split by default. A few brewers have asked for the option of splitting the overall salt additions into mash and sparge. We have to think about how to best present this option.

BTW - really like what brewersfriend is doing with calculators like this, especially the yeast calculator and the fantastic explanations below it.

Thanks

The hardest part I am finding is finding that balancing act between trying to match the water profile.

This is the problem with working towards a given water profile. What I think is more important is to capture the essence of that water profile and base your water treatment on that. The essence of Munich water, for example, is that it is high in temporary hardness (lots of calcium and bicarbonate) and relatively low in sodium, sulfate and chloride. You won’t be able to taste a difference between the targeted 70 ppm Ca and an actual 90 ppm but you may taste a difference if you end up with an actual of 150 ppm Ca, for example.



Thanks. Looks like this new feature is starting to become useful.

Kai
 
You don’t need to add any acid to the mash for this beer since the main concern with this grist would be lower than desired mash pH.

Regarding your water treatment, I think 3 g of chalk in the mash water should do the trick. You could also start out with 1.5g, test pH and check if you need more. An alternative would be ~1 g pickling lime. I’d also add 2 g of calcium Chloride to boost the calcium content.

The 5 g chalk sounds a bit high I have brewed my Doppelbock with this water treatment http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Imperator#Water and the beer has a similar grist to yours with respect to its pH characteristics. The water treatment for that beer included 2g Baking Soda and 3.8g chalk to all water. But that started with R/O water.

Kai
 
I just updated it to your 3g of chalk in the mash and removed the acid from the mash.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=JX9XXXL

However, the mash pH now has gone up to 5.58 without the acid. But as I look the Ca is only 34? For the style like you say we need to be up in the 75 range. Also it's hard for me to figure out how to get the mash to that magic 5.2 number with lactic acid and this style since lactic acid decreases bicarbonates, which is part of the style.

(sorry for the constant questions, I really want to be able to understand and use this tool because of how useful I know it can be to me)
 
I just updated it to your 3g of chalk in the mash and removed the acid from the mash.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=JX9XXXL

However, the mash pH now has gone up to 5.58 without the acid. But as I look the Ca is only 34? For the style like you say we need to be up in the 75 range. Also it's hard for me to figure out how to get the mash to that magic 5.2 number with lactic acid and this style since lactic acid decreases bicarbonates, which is part of the style.

Good questions and I don’t mind answering them. Mostly because they force me to think about this again and justify my advice.

The magic number for mash pH is not 5.2. A better target range is 5.3 – 5.6. I prefer closer to 5.3 for lighter beers and closer to 5.6 for darker beers. 5.6 gets you close to the pH optimum of alpha amylase which will help since you have lots of the diastatically weaker Munich malt in there. With a prediction of 5.58 the actual mash pH may be a bit lower (maybe 5.5) based on my experience that the currently implemented model ends up being a bit higher than actual for darker beers. I may tweak this in the future once I better understand why that is.

If you want to boost the calcium you can add some calcium chloride. Or you test mash pH. If it’s too low add some more chalk (or pickling lime, but the amount would be less), if it’s too high add some calcium chloride.

Kai
 
Ok, this sheds quite a bit of light for me.

And the final question before I brew this:

Why for example in my updated link, is my overall water report, different than the actual numbers in my water target report. Shouldn't these be the same?
 
From what I know about Bru'n Water, it does not handle chalk correctly. You may want to try this: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

There the chalk is assumed to be only 50% effective.

If you post your profile and grist I could help.

Kai

Unfortunately, most brewers will find that chalk does not work in a timely fashion and effectively buffer mash pH. I strongly advise against using chalk unless it is fully predissolved with CO2 pressure. An assumption of the chalk producing half of its calculated alkalinity is quite risky and I have had dozens of brewers complain that chalk didn't work at all. DON'T USE IT!!!

I'd have to classify chalk in the same category as 5.2 Stabilizer. It works great for those that don't check their mash pH and doesn't work at all for those that do check pH. The only plus for using chalk is that it doesn't add a load of sodium to your water.

Regarding adding chalk or any alkalinity increasing minerals to the mash, it is not appropriate to add those minerals since the best sparging water is going to have LOW alkalinity. Therefore, don't add it to sparging water. Your beer will be better for it. I've added that optional feature in Bru'n Water where extra gypsum and/or calcium chloride can be added to the sparging water in an effort to maintain the overall calcium level in the finished wort. If you are dealing with really low calcium water like distilled or RO, then its probably a good idea to add that extra calcium. If your tap water already has plenty of calcium, I would skip that feature.

I noticed a comment about someone adding both acid and chalk to the mash. Since those additions will counteract each other, it makes no sense to add both. Add one or the other, not both. The free version of Bru'n Water doesn't have the extra warnings and guidance that the supporters version has. The free version is just to see if you like it enough to become a supporter.

And finally, most styles do not benefit from a room-temperature mash pH of 5.2. As Kai mentions, the sweet spot is a few tenths higher. That 5.2 value that is popular in brewing lore is appropriate at mash temperature. Since its much better and repeatable to measure mash pH at room temperature, forgetting about that low pH criterion is something that I and Kai have to work on getting to the brewing masses!
 
PS on the whole historic city water profile thing. Those profiles get more brewers in trouble than they are worth. Don't try and blindly duplicate them. Although they are accurate, they are not likely to reflect what the brewers in that city actually ended up brewing with since even way back when, they had some tricks up there sleeve to make them more usable.
 
Unfortunately, most brewers will find that chalk does not work in a timely fashion and effectively buffer mash pH. I strongly advise against using chalk unless it is fully predissolved with CO2 pressure. An assumption of the chalk producing half of its calculated alkalinity is quite risky and I have had dozens of brewers complain that chalk didn't work at all. DON'T USE IT!!!

Martin, I remember when we first started this discussion about using slaked lime over on the Homebrewer's association board. It was after I found that chalk behaved oddly. But I'm not ready to embrace this adversity against using chalk that is simply based on experiments regarding mash pH and not actual sensory experiments.

Yesterday, after I wrote my replies to MG I started thinking about this some more. Especially since I knew others would scoff at my advice of adding that much chalk. I started to wonder if we have become too obsessed with he pH of the mash. That we are leaving the impression unless your pH is in that range and you do water treatment as the experts tell you to do, your beer will be not as good as it could be.

I went back through my notes and the 2009 Doppelbock that everybody at the 2010 NHC raved about was brewed with R/O water that had 3.5 g of chalk in both the mash and sparge water. That's a total of 7g of chalk for a 5 gal batch. I have made many great Schwarzbiers with chalk. I even have a documented side-by-side experiment where I used dissolved and undissolved chalk: http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2009/11/24/undissolved-vs-dissolved-chalk-in-the-brewing-water/
As much as I would have liked to find that dissolving chalk makes a better beer I was not able to find enough taste difference between the two beers to make that point.

I start to wonder if we have gone too far by basing a major part of our brewing water treatment advice solely on how to get that mash pH to a magic number, especially now that mash pH prediction has become widely adopted and is fairly accurate. Since chalk is a bit odd in its behavior let's just toss it out and replace it with pickling lime. But where are the side-by-side experiments between a beer brewed with chalk and the same beer brewed with pickling lime? I have lots of results from mash pH experiments mostly because I like that I can measure pH and don't have to rely on subjective sensory perception. The intend of all these experiments is, and was, to gain insight in what affects mash pH. No more no less. But what's missing are experiments that show which target pH or water treatment in general. Those are more difficult since you have to brew a whole beer and not just a small mash sample.

I also start to wonder if alkalinity in the sparge water or kettle is all that bad. In Germany it is common practice to use the same water for mash and sparge. If you mash with high alkalinity water you also sparge with it. And that may have an effect on the character of the beer. Higher sparge pH may extract a few more tannins which, to some extent, can contribute to a more “robust” beer character. Decoction is known to increase tanning extraction, for example. The alkalinity in the spare water also increases the boil pH, which may be beneficial for darker beers. Based on that I'm actually rethinking the idea of using R/O water for sparging and my alkaline tap water for mashing. I think I should use both for sparging and mashing.

I'd have to classify chalk in the same category as 5.2 Stabilizer. It works great for those that don't check their mash pH and doesn't work at all for those that do check pH. The only plus for using chalk is that it doesn't add a load of sodium to your water.

I don't disagree with that and consider it “doubious at best”.

Regarding adding chalk or any alkalinity increasing minerals to the mash, it is not appropriate to add those minerals since the best sparging water is going to have LOW alkalinity.

back to my earlier point. What is this based on. Note that you say “the best sparging water is going to have LOW alkalinity”. How do yo define “the best”.


I noticed a comment about someone adding both acid and chalk to the mash. Since those additions will counteract each other, it makes no sense to add both. Add one or the other, not both. The free version of Bru'n Water doesn't have the extra warnings and guidance that the supporters version has. The free version is just to see if you like it enough to become a supporter.

That was a mistake that MG made and which I pointed out. As brewers get more familiar with brewing water treatment they'll learn that adding acid and alkalinity generally doesn't make sense.

I didn't know that there is also a paid version for Bru'n Water. Good to know.

Kai
 
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