Advice on how to give advice?

Let me preface this post by saying I am by no means a "pro" brewer, not anywhere close, I have been brewing for 2 years and have made some bad brews and some decent brews.

A local small brewpub which shall remain nameless makes awesome food and ok beer, but their lighter styles are always cloudy. Pale ales, IPA, ESB, etc always look like a hefe, they are that cloudy. I don't know his exact setup but part of me hurts for this guy, not like he's dumb and I am a genious, but I think if he checked his water chem and used Whirlfloc his lighter beers would look 10x better.

The only reason I say this is because I ran into the EXACT same problems with my beers, and it was frustrating. The Whirlfloc was far and away way better than plain irish moss in my experience. But he's the one with the successful (from what I can tell) brewpub and I am the schmuck paying for the beer!

But I can see maybe some homebrewers may get a bad rap offering advice in this fashion. I mean I am not so excited or fired up about it that I am going to be a dick to the guy, I love what he's doing and I think it is great for this area. I love brewing like a religion and I would never put down someone doing something I consider a dream for myself. But I know it has to hurt the appeal of these beers when I get a pour and they are not clear, not by a longshot.

So I figured I would post on here and see what everyone's opinion is on this situation. I won't probably ever say anything to him because I don't want to come off like that, but I was pondering it on the way home from there today.

Probably the best thing you can do is ask about his process and non-chalantly point out the ways he may be going wrong where you've corrected mistakes. Obviously, his system going to be (a lot) different than yours, so he may still be trying to figure it out...or getting blitzed while he's brewing.

Don't ever give unsolicited advice to a brewer unless you want to piss him off.

Does clarity make something taste better or does it alter your perception of how something tastes? Do you like their beer? If yes, keep buying it. No, there are other options. Clarity can cost beer some nutritional value.

Don't be that guy

remilard said:

Don't ever give unsolicited advice to a brewer unless you want to piss him off.

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Aint that the truth?

OP, strike up conversations, become friends, ask if you can hang out for a brewday. Observe his process. Maybe there's a reason for the look of his beer.

Send a letter to the place to the brewer's attention saying you are a customer, homebrewer and huge fan and have a question about the clarity of some of their beers. Say you have some similar issues with your beers and are trying to work on the issue--are they trying anything to deal with it? Have they heard of trying ___________ or _______________ or _____________ ? Invite them to write back if they want to share any ideas. Be positive, enthusiastic, and respectful. Would be hard for them to get upset at you that way and it could lead to you having a good relationship with the brewer.

Frankly, you don't know enough about his setup to provide constructive criticism, and if your best advice is telling him to try Whirlfloc, if will just come off as insulting to boot.

Its his problem, not yours.

shortyjacobs said:

Aint that the truth?

OP, strike up conversations, become friends, ask if you can hang out for a brewday. Observe his process. Maybe there's a reason for the look of his beer.

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This is what I was thinking as well. Advice from friends is always better received than advice from a stranger.

Mongrel said:

Does clarity make something taste better or does it alter your perception of how something tastes? Do you like their beer? If yes, keep buying it. No, there are other options. Clarity can cost beer some nutritional value.

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Clarity will make the beer taste better! It is called presentation, every cook/chef knows this. If food/drink looks great it will be perceived as such, if it looks wrong/bad people are more apt to complain or claim something is off, even when it is not.

@OP
I think you should order a lighter beer and then ask the server why it is so cloudy? (Don't be a prick about it...) Just to kick off the conversation. If someone served you a stout that had an SRM of 5 would you say something? A business needs feedback in order to improve/meet costumer's needs. If you go on saying nothing, you are hurting them more than helping.

Ask him if he'd like to sample one of your homebrewed beers and then bring him one of your brightest pale beers. Maybe he'll ask you how you got it so bright.

Or just use the tried-and-true Dan Aykroyd approach; "Jane you ignorant slut...".

+1 to making friends and getting to know his process. For all you know, he may not give a damn about clarity, at which point you stop. For all you know, he's been struggling with it like wossname pushing a whacking great rock up a mountain, and is in no mood for questions.

If, after you get to know him, hang out with him, give him some good homebrew of yours to sample, figure out his process and think it's socially safe, then you could ask for his advice, and let him view your advice in the frame of a question.

"I'm having some problems getting my pale beers clear. Do you have any tips to promote clarity?"

Let him feel like the sensei being questioned by the grasshopper. But be careful. If you're not good at wide-eyed innocence, it could come off passive-aggressive, and that will strain the relationship.

I've been there, faced with know-it-all homebrewers. At times it's ironically funny,* at times it's downright off-pissing.** Tread lightly and carefully, and who knows? You could help him immensely.

Cheers,

Bob

* I used to brew an IPA with 9 different kinds of hops. I can't tell you how many times I heard, "I can really taste the Cascades!" That beer had no Cascades in it.

** "This beer should be [insert diatribe here]!" is pretty much guaranteed to get you thrown out on your kiester.

I don't think it's wrong to ask HIM if his lighter beers are cloudy for a reason. If he is half as smart as he needs to be to be in business, he really ought to know that most lighter beers are supposed to be very clear. He might not like the questioning, but unless he's a very uptight arrogant ashole, he's going to want to make his beers clearer if possible.

It's not like you are going to walk up and say, Your beers suck, they are all too cloudy.

I second the notion that you are doing more harm by NOT telling him then by telling him. If he can't take a little criticism, especially from someone who obviously wants to help him out, then he deserves to have cloudy beer. And I, for one, would not care to go back to that place under that circumstance.

And please don't assume that because he sells his beer he must be a Siebel graduate. There are many brewers working in smaller places that aren't MASTER class brewers.

Just be nice about it and if you can help, great. If not, then it's his loss.

He might not be a master class brewer, but I think you can rest assured that the brewer there has at least as much brewing experience and knowledge as you do with your two years. And, he most certainly understands the benefits of using finings, etc. Unless you're an expert in malt analysis or commercial brewing systems your advice probably wont be of much help to him.

But... I wouldn't hesitate to ask him why he thinks its happening.

Bob said:

. . . For all you know, he's been struggling with it like wossname pushing a whacking great rock up a mountain, and is in no mood for questions. . .

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I believe you are referring to our friend Sisyphus . . .

jmf143 said:

I believe you are referring to our friend Sisyphus . . .

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That's why you should always wear a condom when you brew.

remilard said:

Don't ever give unsolicited advice to a brewer unless you want to piss him off.

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Advice I have seen before and that I take to heart, but when selling something for a profit it is much different in my opinion then making it in your garage for family and friends.

o4_srt said:

This is what I was thinking as well. Advice from friends is always better received than advice from a stranger.

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Also a good point, I'd like to be there just to see his setup, I think his business plan is great and I like the atmosphere of the joint.

osagedr said:

Send a letter to the place to the brewer's attention saying you are a customer, homebrewer and huge fan and have a question about the clarity of some of their beers. Say you have some similar issues with your beers and are trying to work on the issue--are they trying anything to deal with it? Have they heard of trying ___________ or _______________ or _____________ ? Invite them to write back if they want to share any ideas. Be positive, enthusiastic, and respectful. Would be hard for them to get upset at you that way and it could lead to you having a good relationship with the brewer.

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This is the type of answer I was looking for, it is a great idea, a forum isn't a great place to get to know people for real and if any of you knew me personally I am the last person that would walk into a place like this and be a dick about anything, let alone start firing off comments and being an ahole about his beers.

Zamial said:

Clarity will make the beer taste better! It is called presentation, every cook/chef knows this. If food/drink looks great it will be perceived as such, if it looks wrong/bad people are more apt to complain or claim something is off, even when it is not.

@OP
I think you should order a lighter beer and then ask the server why it is so cloudy? (Don't be a prick about it...) Just to kick off the conversation. If someone served you a stout that had an SRM of 5 would you say something? A business needs feedback in order to improve/meet costumer's needs. If you go on saying nothing, you are hurting them more than helping.

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Agreed, its a business not a commune, if a place makes crappy food or does poor service work they may not realize what exactly they are doing wrong.

Thanks for all the advice everyone I would hope people wouldn't think I am a pompous ass I haven't been in the game that long but come on, it really isn't a struggle to get clear beers, if I can do it, anyone can.

Homercidal said:

I don't think it's wrong to ask HIM if his lighter beers are cloudy for a reason. If he is half as smart as he needs to be to be in business, he really ought to know that most lighter beers are supposed to be very clear. He might not like the questioning, but unless he's a very uptight arrogant ashole, he's going to want to make his beers clearer if possible.

It's not like you are going to walk up and say, Your beers suck, they are all too cloudy.

I second the notion that you are doing more harm by NOT telling him then by telling him. If he can't take a little criticism, especially from someone who obviously wants to help him out, then he deserves to have cloudy beer. And I, for one, would not care to go back to that place under that circumstance.

And please don't assume that because he sells his beer he must be a Siebel graduate. There are many brewers working in smaller places that aren't MASTER class brewers.

Just be nice about it and if you can help, great. If not, then it's his loss.

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Thanks man this is what response I was looking for, I appreciate everyone's opinion, I can't often think of a thought provoking post mostly I just read so it is interesting to get everyone's mindset.

What will you say if his answer is he likes it that way?

Airborneguy said:

What will you say if his answer is he likes it that way?

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Well I will continue to come to his brewpub because it kicks ass, I just won't order a lighter beer unless it's like an IPA or something special. Who am I to say that is the only way to drink lighter colored beers. I just prefer them that way and I think that they present so much better. But his beer tastes great, at least the varieties I have had. So to answer your question, I would tell him that it is fine with me if he makes it that way and I will still come to your bar, I'm not salty with the guy about the clarity, I just think it would look so much better if it was clear and I know not everyone will agree. That's ok too!

Since you're going ahead with this, I hope you'll tell us the outcome, and what the actual problem appears to be.

I'm going to guess that the problem is a more complex one, probably having to do with the profile of the malt he is using.