partial vs full boil

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Yesfan

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I have a 5 gallon kettle. My last (and first) brew, I just followed the instructions and boiled 2.5 gallons of water, and went from there (add ingredients, hops, etc.). Then of course, after dumping in a fermenter, bring that amount to the full 5 gallons.

On my next batch, could I just go with a higher amount of water? What's the most some have done with a 5 gallon kettle? Could you do 3.5 gallon, 4 gallon boil in a 5 gallon kettle? I know the more you go, the more chance for a boil over. I kept a spritzer bottle of filtered water nearby during my last brew session and didn't hardly see that huge of a boil over threat (that I can remember).

So is the risk of a bigger partial boil worth considering if you know you're going to be diligent throughout the entire boil process? Will the gains be worth a better looking beer?

Just thinking out loud here.
 
I have a 5 gallon kettle. My last (and first) brew, I just followed the instructions and boiled 2.5 gallons of water, and went from there (add ingredients, hops, etc.). Then of course, after dumping in a fermenter, bring that amount to the full 5 gallons.

On my next batch, could I just go with a higher amount of water? What's the most some have done with a 5 gallon kettle? Could you do 3.5 gallon, 4 gallon boil in a 5 gallon kettle? I know the more you go, the more chance for a boil over. I kept a spritzer bottle of filtered water nearby during my last brew session and didn't hardly see that huge of a boil over threat (that I can remember).

So is the risk of a bigger partial boil worth considering if you know you're going to be diligent throughout the entire boil process? Will the gains be worth a better looking beer?

Just thinking out loud here.

Yes, the more you can boil the better the beer. It will be "cleaner" and less cooked extract taste-y if that makes sense. My recommendation is to boil as much as you possibly can, whether it's 3, 3.5, 4 or even 5 gallons. Some people don't have strong enough burners to boil that much wort (like on a kitchen stove) and some people may not have a good way to chill that much wort. But if you can- do it!

A couple of other things you can do to help with the flavor if you are limited by boiling sizes- one is to add half of the extract near or at the end of the boil instead of at the beginning. That helps alot with reducing maillard reactions (carmelization type reactions). It also means a less extract-y taste in the final beer. The beer will be lighter colored, as extract tends to darken in a boil, especially a smaller boil.

A great combo would be to boil 4 gallons, and add at least 1/2 at of the extract near the end of the boil. That would work great, and you could probably swing that in a 5 gallon pot, if you watched it carefully.
 
Thanks Yooper! I may try that.


So there is nothing wrong with adding the last half of my extract at the end of the boil? Does it matter if the extract is liquid or dry? I have it in my head the whole thing needs to have a 60 minute boil.
 
Thanks Yooper! I may try that.


So there is nothing wrong with adding the last half of my extract at the end of the boil? Does it matter if the extract is liquid or dry? I have it in my head the whole thing needs to have a 60 minute boil.

Well, your wort needs to boil for 60 minutes- but it doesn't have anything to do with the extract. The extract has already been processed by the maker, so it doesn't need a boil.

What does need a boil, though, are the hops. The bittering hops' oils will isomerize during boiling and it takes a long time to extract all their bittering. 60 minutes is usually about the right amount of time- longer gets a bit more bittering, but not that much- so the wort is typically boiled for 60 minutes to get the bittering out of the hops. Later hops boil less time, of course, for flavor and aroma additions.

If I had a recipe that had both LME and DME, I'd make sure to use the LME at the end, as I think it darkens more than DME. Either way is fine, though. I'd probably use 1 pound of extract per gallon for the boil (so, if you have two gallons of water to boil, use 2 pounds of extract), and the rest of the extract at flame out.
 
And don't forget to turn off your burner while stirring in the rest of the extract. It can burn amazingly fast.
 
For me when I brew with extract I split everything in half and brew 2 half batches. Yes it makes my brew day longer, however I get the benefits of a full boil

Rick
 
If I had a recipe that had both LME and DME, I'd make sure to use the LME at the end, as I think it darkens more than DME.

LME also dissolves much more easily than DME, so you aren't stirring chunks at flameout. I found that out the hard way when making a barleywine and I stirred in half my body mass in DME at flameout. That's just me, though, and I'm a n00b.
 
This helped me out a LOT! I bought an 8gal kettle and I plan on doing my first batch ever tomorrow. I am super excited. I just wasnt really sure how much to actually boil. And I just got a wort chiller from a guy at work. So that should help a lot with my cooling. Im looking at doing a full boil. As long as I can actually get it to boil haha. That a lot of water to boil.
 
Do a test first and make sure that you can get straight water to a boil. make sure that you can get a vigorous rolling boil.

I would start with 6 gallons in your 8 gallon pot and watch it like a hawk. You might still have to top up a little to get to 5 gallons after the boil.
 
Some more questions.


I ordered the Brown Ale kit from NB, so plan on trying the techniques mentioned here. The Brown Ale recipe includes some specialty grains to steep. The kit mentions to steep the grains for 20 minutes, or until the water temp hits 170 (whichever comes first). Seems I've read here some folks bring the water temp to 170 first, then steep the grains for 20 minutes. Which is correct? If either way's fine, then which would be more beneficial?

Also, besides the steeping grains, there's only a single LME and single hop addition (fuggle) to add to the boil. Instead of boiling both for 60 minutes in 2.5 gallons, per instructions, could I just boil the hops for 60 minutes in 4 gallons of water and add the entire LME contents towards the end? I thought maybe just add the entire LME at 10-15 minutes before the end of the boil.
 
Some more questions.


I ordered the Brown Ale kit from NB, so plan on trying the techniques mentioned here. The Brown Ale recipe includes some specialty grains to steep. The kit mentions to steep the grains for 20 minutes, or until the water temp hits 170 (whichever comes first). Seems I've read here some folks bring the water temp to 170 first, then steep the grains for 20 minutes. Which is correct? If either way's fine, then which would be more beneficial?.


It doesn't matter a bit. Either way is fine. It's like asking "which is better to heat soup? Microwave or saucepan?" Truly, it doesn't matter. You're making a "tea" from the grains and you just don't want to exceed 170 degrees.

Also, besides the steeping grains, there's only a single LME and single hop addition (fuggle) to add to the boil. Instead of boiling both for 60 minutes in 2.5 gallons, per instructions, could I just boil the hops for 60 minutes in 4 gallons of water and add the entire LME contents towards the end? I thought maybe just add the entire LME at 10-15 minutes before the end of the boil.

I"d probably add a bit of the LME to the beginning, and then add the rest of the extract at flame out. It would be easier than adding it with 15 minutes left, because it will stop the boil when you take it off of the heat and stir it in. I'd probably add about 1/3 of it at the beginning, and the rest at the end.
 
I'd bet cash money you will be cleaning up a gigantic sticky mess of you try to boil much more than 3 gallons in a 5 gallon kettle... UNLESS you use this magical (and cheap) stuff called FermCapS. Whew doggy, this stuff is amazing! You could very easily/safely boil 4 gallons in a 5 gallon kettle- just use about 5 drops in your 4 gallons of wort. Seriously, magical.
 
I'm know I'm pushing the envelope on the boil amount, but the wheat recipe I brewed came no where near to boil over at 2.5 gallons. I followed my first batch recipe to a T (2.5 gallon boil, 2wks ferment, 2wks bottle condition, etc.), so I'm thinking of seeing what I can tweak by going with another simple recipe so I'll know what my limitations are. Just like the last batch, this is mainly to hone my noobie skills.

I'm just going to increase my boil amount to an additional gallon for the time being and go with adding a 1/3 of the LME at the beginning and the rest at the end.
 
Yesfan said:
I may look into that. There's some other things I need to order, so may add that to the list.

FERMCAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's cheap, get it... you'll never look back :mug:
 
Do a test first and make sure that you can get straight water to a boil. make sure that you can get a vigorous rolling boil.

I would start with 6 gallons in your 8 gallon pot and watch it like a hawk. You might still have to top up a little to get to 5 gallons after the boil.

I usually boil between 6 to 6.5 gallons in my 7.5 gallon brew kettle and I'm usually left with well over 5 gallons by the end of the boil.


FERMCAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's cheap, get it... you'll never look back :mug:

I'm going to have to invest in some of this ****! :mug: I haven't had a major boil over but I've come close a couple of times. Made a xmas ale over the weekend and I had over 10 lbs of liquid extract to add and the wort level was right up to the brim of my brew kettle. I thought for sure I was in trouble, but I managed to keep it under control! :rockin: But that FermCap sounds like it would have helped tremendously!
 
When I was doing extract I used to start with 3 gallons of water in a 5 gallon pot and add 1/2 the LME or ALL the DME at the beginning and keep a spray bottle close, as long as I was watching it I never had a boil over. Even now I have a 7.5 gallon pot and start with 6+ gallons and as long as I'm watching it I don't have a boil over.

Northern Brewer has a video on YouTube the shows them making the exact same kit (Caribu Slobber if I remember correctly) with both a partial and full boil and show the pros and cons of both.
 
I used 2 pots when I was doing extract up until this year. I'd just split the LME and hops between the two and get about 3.5 gallons at the end, and then top off to 5 gallons. That's probably at the low end of boil size for a 5 gallon batch. I switched to all-grain and full boil but I can't say that my extract partial boil batches were that much different in the end. I made some pretty good beer that way.

For steeping grains, I always kept them around 150 to 158, depending on recipe. The high end produces unfermentable sugars which give the beer mouth feel and a touch of sweetness, desired in certain styles. I know now why this works, but at the time I just followed the recipe without knowing much about the chemistry.
 
I can do 3.5 gallons with no problem in a 5 gallon kettle, and could probably get away with 4 gallons if the need arose. More than that would be possible on a good day, but I'd expect boil overs with some regularity beyond that.

Two things that help. One, is that I do partial mashes with a late addition of DME 15-20 minutes before the end, so I have no extract at the start of the boil. I find that DME gives a much more vigorous hot break behavior than my own mashed wort.

Two, I stir continuously from the first signs of foaming until all (or very nearly all) the foam is gone and it's a clean boil. I also keep a spray bottle of water at hand and mercilessly spray any foam that looks like it's thinking about growing out of control. I find that if I get it early, it doesn't get out of control, but once you get a skin of foam over the top of the kettle you are in trouble.

I've never used LME, so I don't know how it compares, but when I add my DME and return to a boil, I find I get a huge thick foam layer that I really have to lay into with stirring and squirting or it tries to mushroom up out.
 
Well, I brewed my second batch yesterday. It was NB's nut brown kit. I boiled with 3.5 gallons of water, instead of the 2.5 recommended by the recipe. When I put in the fuggle hops, I had a scary moment as the boil got right at the tip top of the rim. I had a spray bottle handy and that's what saved me. I had thought about going with 4 gallons when I started. Glad I didn't. So, I think 3.5 will be my limit until I get a bigger pot.

On another note, I also just added half of my extract at the start of my boil, instead of all of it. I put the other half in with about 10 minutes left in the boil, so we'll see how that goes. Looking forward to the results in a few weeks. The recipe calls for 2 weeks fermentation, 2 weeks bottle condition. I may let it sit an additional week in primary before bottling.
 
Well, I brewed my second batch yesterday. It was NB's nut brown kit. I boiled with 3.5 gallons of water, instead of the 2.5 recommended by the recipe. When I put in the fuggle hops, I had a scary moment as the boil got right at the tip top of the rim. I had a spray bottle handy and that's what saved me. I had thought about going with 4 gallons when I started. Glad I didn't. So, I think 3.5 will be my limit until I get a bigger pot.

On another note, I also just added half of my extract at the start of my boil, instead of all of it. I put the other half in with about 10 minutes left in the boil, so we'll see how that goes. Looking forward to the results in a few weeks. The recipe calls for 2 weeks fermentation, 2 weeks bottle condition. I may let it sit an additional week in primary before bottling.

I'd bet cash money you could get away with boiling 4 gallons in in your 5 gallon pot using this magical stuff. This $2 bottle will last you forever, player. I use 1 drop per post boil gallon, so 11 drops into 13 gallons of wort, and I haven't come close to a boil over since. I'll never, ever, ever make a starter or brew without this stuff again. Amazing.

***I swear I don't work for the makers of Fermcap S, I just don't understand why more people aren't using it***

Cheers :mug:
 
***I swear I don't work for the makers of Fermcap S, I just don't understand why more people aren't using it***

Cheers :mug:



LOL! It does seem like you work for them. I know you've mentioned it to me many times in this thread. The actual truth is, I forgot to order it with my last recipe. I don't know why it keeps slipping my mind. :drunk:

NB has a "wishlist", and I try to make it a habit to go over it before placing an order, so I'll put it on there so I don't forget next time.
 
Yesfan said:
LOL! It does seem like you work for them. I know you've mentioned it to me many times in this thread. The actual truth is, I forgot to order it with my last recipe. I don't know why it keeps slipping my mind. :drunk:

NB has a "wishlist", and I try to make it a habit to go over it before placing an order, so I'll put it on there so I don't forget next time.

You won't regret it.

FermCap S approves this message
 
Thought I would post an update.

I took a hydro reading earlier, and got a reading of 1.010. The pic below is my brown ale.

20120926_213007.jpg



I'm sure it's ready for bottling, but I'll wait till Saturday anyways and do another hydro reading. My digital temp controller came in yesterday, so I may just cold crash this beer for about 3 days, then bottle it.


I have to say, I feel better about this batch than I did my first one and my first one wasn't bad imo (for my low standards).

The nut brown called for:

2.5 gallon boil
LME boil for a full 60 minutes
2 weeks primary
2 weeks bottle condition

Instead, per the advice given by Yooper and others here, I went with...

3.5 gallon boil
1/2 the extract boil for 60 minutes
the other 1/2 boil for the last 10 minutes
3 weeks primary (will be this by the 29th)


The beer might not be as clear to you seasoned brewers, but mine turned out clearer than I was expecting. It tasted pretty good. I'm looking forward to this one when it's done.


Appreciate the help too. Thanks a lot! :mug:
 
Do not forget when using a kit or recipe set at a 2.5 gallon boil and you add to the boil, you need to adjust your hops. The more water, the hoppier your beer will end up.
 
Do not forget when using a kit or recipe set at a 2.5 gallon boil and you add to the boil, you need to adjust your hops. The more water, the hoppier your beer will end up.

Not really. The difference between a 2.5 gallon boil and a 3.5 gallon boil is negligible, particularly with adding the extract late in the boil in both.
 
Yooper said:
Not really. The difference between a 2.5 gallon boil and a 3.5 gallon boil is negligible, particularly with adding the extract late in the boil in both.

Indeed. Actually, the difference between a 2.5 gallon boil and 5 gallon boil is pretty negligible, ultimately
 
Not really. The difference between a 2.5 gallon boil and a 3.5 gallon boil is negligible, particularly with adding the extract late in the boil in both.

By adding 1/4 of the extract at the beginning and the rest at the end, BrewTarget calculates roughly double the IBU's compared to adding all the extract at the beginning. I'm pretty sure BrewTarget uses the Tinseth formula.
 
Yes, brewr says it is about 1.5 times more object, 2.5 to 5 gallons doubles to object. I found this out the hard way once, by taste.
 
Why would there be any hop adjustments between a 2.5 gallon boil, compared to a full 5 gallon boil? Aren't the ingredients in the kits, NB's or others, geared to do 5 gallon batches anyway? Whether you do a partial or not, in the end you're gonna end with 5 gallons of wort to ferment, right?
 
The amount of water used in the boil will pick up the bitterness of the hops. When you add water after the boil it dilutes it. The wort is concentrated and needs to be diluted, the hops are figured out with this in mind. I ended up with a very hoppy stout once.
 
Why would there be any hop adjustments between a 2.5 gallon boil, compared to a full 5 gallon boil? Aren't the ingredients in the kits, NB's or others, geared to do 5 gallon batches anyway? Whether you do a partial or not, in the end you're gonna end with 5 gallons of wort to ferment, right?

The theory is that the amount of bitter compounds that can be extracted from the hops and the rate at which they're extracted depends on how much "stuff" is already dissolved in the water. If it's got more sugar, it extracts bitterness less efficiently. Thus, it's not as simple as using the correct amount for 5 gallons, you may have to adjust based on the boil SG.

This is disputed, though most calculators do seem to roughly double the bitterness for a doubling of SG.
 
That answers some of my questions, but I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around it. I get the water amount/hops argument. That makes some sense to me. What I don't get is if the typical 5 gallon extract recipe from companies like NB. The recipe instructions assume you'll be boiling 2.5 gallons of water in a 5 gallon kettle. So are the ingredients adjusted accordingly? If so, then why do a lot of folks here, NB, etc. suggest getting a bigger kettle to do full volume boils for a 5 gallon batch?

On another note, I see NB has the American Wheat as a 1 gallon recipe. This was also my first batch and still (after a month) has a bit of a bite to it. It's still very drinkable, but I wonder if I'll get a totally different tasting beer if I'm able to do a full volume boil whether it's the one gallon kit from NB or the same 5 gallon kit I brewed before. Folks here and on the NB forums have told me it would mellow out after a few weeks, but I don't think it has mellowed as much as I expected. It tastes good enough for me to try it again if that helps.
 
That answers some of my questions, but I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around it. I get the water amount/hops argument. That makes some sense to me. What I don't get is if the typical 5 gallon extract recipe from companies like NB. The recipe instructions assume you'll be boiling 2.5 gallons of water in a 5 gallon kettle. So are the ingredients adjusted accordingly? If so, then why do a lot of folks here, NB, etc. suggest getting a bigger kettle to do full volume boils for a 5 gallon batch?

On another note, I see NB has the American Wheat as a 1 gallon recipe. This was also my first batch and still (after a month) has a bit of a bite to it. It's still very drinkable, but I wonder if I'll get a totally different tasting beer if I'm able to do a full volume boil whether it's the one gallon kit from NB or the same 5 gallon kit I brewed before. Folks here and on the NB forums have told me it would mellow out after a few weeks, but I don't think it has mellowed as much as I expected. It tastes good enough for me to try it again if that helps.

It used to be thought that wort gravity had an impact on hops utilization. It turns out that it does not. Some of the older IBU calculators haven't been updated with the newer information. John Palmer says he "got it wrong" in howtobrew.com and has been saying that wort gravity/boil size do not impact hops utilization. In a few very small IBU beers, I have noticed a bit of difference in the perception of bitterness in a full boil vs. a partial boil, and I was told (by John Palmer) that it "might be as a result of break material in the wort". But in anything over about 25 IBUs or so, any differences are negligible, and the calculators don't account for that.

A full boil just generally makes the beer better. A "cleaner" less "cooked extract" taste, along with a lighter color, all make it just a better beer.

As to why you still have some "bite" in your beer, I can't say as I'm not sure what you are tasting. It could be related to fermentation temperature, water chemistry, ingredients, carbonation level, etc, so I can't really give you any helpful advice. If you could describe the flavor, that would help.
 
It used to be thought that wort gravity had an impact on hops utilization. It turns out that it does not. Some of the older IBU calculators haven't been updated with the newer information. John Palmer says he "got it wrong" in howtobrew.com and has been saying that wort gravity/boil size do not impact hops utilization.

It should be noted that Glenn Tinseth still uses the formulas that show reduced hop utilization with a higher gravity boil - see his website:
http://www.realbeer.com/hops/research.html
He now attributes the decreased utilization to break material, but this relates back to boil gravity. I find it worrisome that the experts disagree on this point - I'll be very glad to see the issue resolved.
 
....As to why you still have some "bite" in your beer, I can't say as I'm not sure what you are tasting. It could be related to fermentation temperature, water chemistry, ingredients, carbonation level, etc, so I can't really give you any helpful advice. If you could describe the flavor, that would help.


I know this will sound funny, but it almost seems it has a bit of a "hoppy" after-taste. With that beer I did:

2.5 gallon boil (3 gallons RO water, 2 gallons tap...tap was in the boil)
fermented 70-72 degrees (that's ambient temps, not the beer temp).
2 weeks fermentation, two weeks bottling
ingredients per NB's American Wheat recipe
5/8 cup of table sugar for bottling.

All I had to monitor temps was my thermometer stuck down in my swamp cooler. That temp averaged 70*F for two weeks, but I'm sure the beer's actual temp was higher.
 
Yesfan said:
I know this will sound funny, but it almost seems it has a bit of a "hoppy" after-taste. With that beer I did:

2.5 gallon boil (3 gallons RO water, 2 gallons tap...tap was in the boil)
fermented 70-72 degrees (that's ambient temps, not the beer temp).
2 weeks fermentation, two weeks bottling
ingredients per NB's American Wheat recipe
5/8 cup of table sugar for bottling.

All I had to monitor temps was my thermometer stuck down in my swamp cooler. That temp averaged 70*F for two weeks, but I'm sure the beer's actual temp was higher.

Yeah, probably 80F+
 
It used to be thought that wort gravity had an impact on hops utilization. It turns out that it does not. Some of the older IBU calculators haven't been updated with the newer information. John Palmer says he "got it wrong" in howtobrew.com and has been saying that wort gravity/boil size do not impact hops utilization.

Hey Yooper, was this a verbal comment either in-person or on a podcast or was this written somewhere?

I'd love to hear what he has to say about this.
 
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