Need Ideas for carbing

I currently have 7 one gallon experiment batches going using Safale US-5 yeast because I wasn't overly impressed with how Red Star wine and champagne yeasts stripped the apple flavor out of previous batches so I intend to use an ale yeast. Here is my plan:

1 gallon regular hard cider using US-05 as a control
2 gallons of dry-hopped cider using US-05
2 gallons of hard cider aged with light toasted American oak chips using US-05
2 gallons of dry-hopped cider aged with light toasted American oak chips using US-05

I used 3 Kroger brand frozen apple juice concentrate per gallon batch and filled the rest of the gallon carboy up with water filtered through a Britta filter. [note] in the past I have always used orchard fresh unpasturized non-chemically treated cider but seeing as I live in northern Indiana and it is December fresh cider is a bit hard to come by these days.

1 crushed campden tablet was added to each gallon 24 hours before pitching yeast.

24 hours later the OG was read at 1.058-1.060 depending on the jug and then I added:
1/8 tsp tannin per gallon
1 tsp Fermax Yeast nutrient per gallon
1/2 tsp pectin enzyme per gallon
3/4 tsp acid blend per gallon

I shook the carboy up to dissolve all added ingredients and then pitched 3/4 tsp Safale US-05 yeast per gallon (no yeast starter made prior) and shook the yeast up. This came out to using about 1 and 1/4 packets of yeast for all 7 gallons.

Air lock were put on and the cider has begun fermenting at 60 degrees F. I had about 1 bubble every 45 seconds in the airlock 24 hours after pitching yeast and now I am up to 1 bubble every 15-20 seconds after 48 hours. Looking good!



I intend to add in the hops and oak chips to the secondary. My problem that I'm having is that I like a sweet carbed cider and I really would like to halt the fermentation at 1.012 to avoid the yeast from chewing up all the complex sugars and eating up my apple taste. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can seep the hops and oak chips in the secondary without having to kill the yeast and the reason being is that I don't have a kegging system so I have to keep some yeast alive so I can bottle carb? I guess i should add that I don't have any fridge space to let the 7 carboys keep the yeast dormant while these flavors steep. I need to somehow keep the yeast dormant so they will not ferment my cider to totally dry while I steep flavors in secondary. After the steeping is done i plan on cold crashing the secondary, then bottling, and then pasteurizing the bottles after they have carbed up to my liking or at least that's what I've done in the past. Suggestions?

Maybe make a few larger swamp coolers and try chilling it down that way? Not sure you'd get it cold enough that way though.

I see a solution here. You need to keep the yeast alive, but not have them ferment AND you can't get them cold to put the yeast to sleep in the house...


1- find and outdoor spot that's cold enough. I've lived in Indiana, and it's December! A barn/shed interior that's just above freezing will do it.

Or

2- kill the yeast though sorbate/sulfite or pasturization, and add more yeast for carbing later.

Hope this helps!

WilliamSlayer said:

1- find and outdoor spot that's cold enough. I've lived in Indiana, and it's December! A barn/shed interior that's just above freezing will do it.

Or

2- kill the yeast though sorbate/sulfite or pasturization, and add more yeast for carbing later.

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I thought about the outdoors idea. But I live in an apartment so the shed or garage option isn't possible for me. Plus the temps have been in the 20's outside lately so simply setting them on the balcony would be really risky. I did ponder the idea of trying to maintain a low 30 degree range outside using a swamp cooler but couldn't think of many ideas in this area to be able to successfully control the temp.

I do really like the idea of killing off the yeast and then re-pitching. If I did go this route, how should I go about doing it? I do have k-meta and sorbate but would like to avoid using them if possible. Has anyone had experience successfully cold crashing US-05 so no active yeast are left? Or any good ideas for pasteurizing? I've only bottle pasteurized before. Also how much yeast should I re-pitch before bottling? I would like to avoid a yeasty flavor and would like it to carb slowly so I can catch it in time before getting bottle bombs (I've had that happen before and it was scary). Should I make a yeast starter?

I plan on dry-hopping the cider in the secondary using Czech Saaz nitrogen-purged and it has an AA average of 3.0%. I think this will give a very light hop taste and aroma without overpowering my apple flavor.

The hops comes in little pellets that look like geese poop. Should I crush up the hops or break the pellets apart before putting into a mesh bag for steeping?

LandoAllen said:

I plan on dry-hopping the cider in the secondary using Czech Saaz nitrogen-purged and it has an AA average of 3.0%. I think this will give a very light hop taste and aroma without overpowering my apple flavor.

The hops comes in little pellets that look like geese poop. Should I crush up the hops or break the pellets apart before putting into a mesh bag for steeping?

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Your s-05 can be 'crashed'. But remember you want them around for carbing so don't rack too much of the yeast off. If you end up killing/re_pitching be sure to be ready to pasturize as the yeast will go back to chewing through all the sugar again. Good luck!

No need to do anything to the hop pellets. They will expand on their own, loosening into a layer at the bottom of the carboy/jug.

I just took a SG reading this morning and I'm sitting at about 1.024. Hopefully by tomorrow i will be able to cold crash it and then rack it to the secondary on Sunday.

I thought I would share my experience also. I have only used S-04 before with cider and not US-05. Not sure the differences. I typically stick with Nottingham.

I usually rack mine off to secondary after about 7-10 days. At temps around 60ºF that usually puts me around 1.020 moving into secondary. It then usually takes about 3 weeks to get down to around 1.002. (at around 60º) 1.002 is what I shoot for, and the 3+ weeks allows it to smooth out the flavor and bring the apple flavor back around.

After bottling, it typically takes about 2-3 weeks to carb up (with adding 3-4 oz dextrose) at around 4 weeks or so it's damn near perfect. If I leave them in the bottle for more than 2 months, the yeast eats EVERYTHING and they drop to near 1.000. They are dry, but the apple flavor is really nice.

I guess my point is, maybe you don't really need to cold crash before going to secondary? My experience has been that once you rack off the lees, it slows down quite a bit at temps around or below 60ºF.

Obviously, everyones fermentation etc is going to be different.

Pickled_Pepper said:

I guess my point is, maybe you don't really need to cold crash before going to secondary? My experience has been that once you rack off the lees, it slows down quite a bit at temps around or below 60ºF.

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I if were to simply rack to a secondary (without cold crashing first) to get the cider off the lees, which is providing lots of nutrients, would this allow enough time to dry hop and oak the cider before the SG dropped to around 1.012 which is where I was wanting to bottle it at? I'm currently at 1.020. It smells a bit sulfury but the taste is great.

Also does anyone have suggestions on how much hops to use in a one gallon batch and how long to steep it? I'm using Czech Saaz with AA average of 3.0%.

How much lightly toasted oak chips to use for a one gallon batch/ how long?

I think it will all depend on your conditions. I've never used Yeast Nutrient, Pectic Enzymes, Acid Blends or anything like that, so I don't know how that will effect your secondary fermentation. I've also never used US-05 for cider.

I just looked on the fermentis web site and apparently S-04 is a higher flocculating yeast (US-05 is a medium flocculating yeast) Someone else might be able to weigh in better on this, but it may be that the US-05 might leave more yeasties in suspension allowing for more to be transferred to secondary. You might finish in secondary in a couple of weeks instead of 3+. (This is all just my theory of course)

I'd suggest taking readings every week to keep an eye on where you are. Of course, fermentation is all about experimenting and seeing what works best for your situation. You might consider just racking one and cold crashing another to see what works best. (Did I just make that even more confusing? haha)

LandoAllen said:

I if were to simply rack to a secondary (without cold crashing first) to get the cider off the lees, which is providing lots of nutrients, would this allow enough time to dry hop and oak the cider before the SG dropped to around 1.012 which is where I was wanting to bottle it at? I'm currently at 1.020. It smells a bit sulfury but the taste is great.

Also does anyone have suggestions on how much hops to use in a one gallon batch and how long to steep it? I'm using Czech Saaz with AA average of 3.0%.

How much lightly toasted oak chips to use for a one gallon batch/ how long?

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You may not have enough time. I would give an educated guess that you'll extend your time out for a week...maybe two. And that would be to dryness (1.000). Get the hops and oak in the secondary and rack the cider onto it.

Never used oak or hops for so small a batch, but I would try 1/4 oz of hops and 1/4 oz of oak. You won't get a long time on either one, so if that seems a small ammount to other brewers, chime in now guys!

Hope this helps Lando!

Today I checked the SG and I was perfectly at 1.012 which is where I wanted to stop the fermentation. I prepared my hop bags for the 4 jugs that need it and I used .1 oz of hops per gallon. Then I racked each of the 7 gallons into secondary.. I then cleared out a bunch of fridge space and put all 7 gallons into the fridge at 34F for a cold crash for clarity/make the yeast dormant. I plan on taking samples periodically to see how the hop flavor is coming along.

I decided to put the oak chips into a glass canning jar and pour Bacardi Oakheart Spiced Rum (which is aged in charred oak barrels) over it to permeate the flavor of the oak. I will add this into the bottling bucket for the oak flavor when I go to bottle. I figured this would be easier for my first time than experimenting how much oak chips to add into the secondary and how long to keep them in there.

The secondary will stay in the fridge for almost two weeks because I'm leaving Thursday for my wedding in TX. My future wife is going to have quite a surprise when she sees my refrigerator has no food and full of homebrew. When I get back from the honeymoon ill bottle these batches and give updates.

Congrats on both hitting your target gravity, and the wedding!

I cold steeped the hops for 4.5 days and I took a taste test today. It is clearing up nicely and there is great apple flavor. The hopped cider tasted amazing! I am very happy with how the S-05 ale yeast/ colder temp brew/ stopping fermentation at 1.012 preserved the apple flavor. I can't wait to add the oak flavor and bottle these experiment batches in two weeks.

RESULTS...


START DATE: 12-22-12
RACKING DATE: 12-28-12
COLD CRASH DATE: 12-29-12 until 1-19-13
BOTTLING DATE: 1-19-13

Fermentation Temp: 60 F
Yeast: US-05
OG 1.059
FG: 1.012
ABV: about 6.25-6.45%
Final pH (after back-sweetening): 3.51


3 Kroger brand frozen apple juice concentrate used per gallon batch and the added water was poured from a Britta filter to fill each jug up to 1 gallon.

1 crushed Campden tablet was added 24 hours prior to adding nutrients, pectin enzyme, acid blend, tannin, and pitching yeast to help inoculate any bacteria and yeast present in the frozen concentrate or water.

1/8 tsp of tannin was added per gallon (to add a crisp flavor that it lacks due to using frozen concentrate)
1 tsp of Fermax Yeast Nutrient was added per gallon (to help feed the yeast)
½ tsp of pectin enzyme was added per gallon (to help clear the pectin protein out of suspension in the cider)
¾ tsp Acid Blend was added per gallon (to boost the acidity level since it is frozen concentrate)

On 12-22-12 ¾ tsp Safale US-05 yeast was pitched per gallon


Cold Crashed for three weeks. At beginning of cold crash I opened up 4 tea bags, dumped out the tea leaves, and filled them with .1 oz of Czech Saaz hops with an AA of 3%. I sanitized them in some star san solution first and then I steeped 3 of the carboys for 4 days. The other one carboy I steeped for the entire duration of the cold crash because I accidentally ripped the tea bag open when trying to take it out at day 4 and the hops fell inside.

I back-sweetened with Kroger brand apple juice concentrate that had been treated with campden tablet 24 hours before. I also racked the concentrate into a clean jug in case the concentrate had any sediment. When I racked the cider into the bottling bucket I stirred up tiny bit of yeast on the bottom so I could make sure yeast would be available for bottle carbing. I was afraid that after cold-crashing for three weeks there may not be any yeast in suspension...
I used 12 oz soda bottles so I can roughly test the carbonation so I know when I need to bottle pasteurize.

Overall the cider retained a LOT of the original apple flavor (at least compared to the Red Star wine and champagne yeasts I've used). The taste was very clean and I didn't taste andy sour or odd off flavors. The cider was VERY clear when bottling but I would hope so after cold-crashing for so long.

The tea bags worked great for keeping the hops out of the cider. Dry hopping the cider for four days seemed to be perfect. The four day hop batch had a nice hoppy/apple smell and the bitterness of the hops was complimentary to the semi-sweet cider. However, the one carboy with the tea bag that broke open was full of hops and did not clear well. Also dry hopping the cider for three weeks seemed to be too much. That batch had a very bitter hoppy taste and it overpowered the cider. I am hoping that the hops will dissipate in the coming months.

The lightly toasted American oak chips that had been steeping for 3 weeks in Bacardi Oakheart Rum had steeped a lot of the oak flavor and had a nice dark brown hue to it. I added this rum to each kind of cider for oak taste. The oak added an interesting flavor...especially when combined with the hops. I could taste sever different flavors in the cider and each flavor seemed to hit at different points in the tasting.

Now the carbonation, bottle pasteurization, and aging process begins
I will post details in months to come...

I just pasteurized all the bottles over the weekend and I had a few friends try the new brew. Everyone loved the control cider and the hoped cider. The heavily hopped cider was a hit for those who like more of the IPA style beers and such. The oak flavor was good but didn't have as big of an attraction as the others. All of the ciders were a huge success and I will for sure be using these recipes again in the future, especially in regards to using ale yeasts and dry-hopping. I can't wait to see how these ciders turns out as they age a bit.

Great idea using the tea bags! congrats on your success.