Can't seem to make an IPA worth drinking...

I love hoppy beers, FW Double Jack, Hopstoopid, Pliny, any good solid IPA, but I can not seem to brew one to save my life! I have made some killer other styles; Sasion, Sasion on Brett, American Black Ale, Brown, even a RIS w cocao, oak and chili's. All of my IPA's seem to have the same fruity esters or flavor. I have used WL San Diego Super, WL American Ale, US04 and 05 and have had no luck. I use a swamp cooler and keep my temps under control. Last batch was 2 row, Victory and carapils with Simcoe, Nugget and Chinook, better than the 1st few but still not that great. I also seem to get a "dirty", literally a hint of dirt or earth flavor each time. Really frustrating. My sanitation is good, ingredients have come from different sources and make good-great brews in other styles, so I am thinking it is me somewhere screwing this up.

Here is what I have on hand; 1 lb Simcoe, 1 lb Centennial, 1 lb, Nugget, 1 lb Summit and 1 lb Chinook. I have a sack of 2 row, White wheat and Pilsen with access to most everything else. I have a wash of Pacman, some WL001, Notty, 04 and 05, oh and a WL London Ale. I really like big hop bombs with that kind of dank flavor, think Surly. Can anyone give me a basic recipe with the ingredients listed to make a good IPA?

All thoughts/critiques/help appreciated!

You don't mention making a yeast starter.......Have you done that for these IPAs?

Fruity esters, to me anyway, points to a temperature issue.

What temperature are you fermenting at?

Also, have you tried any SMaSH brewing with your IPAs?

Look at your water. That's usually what jumps to me as the problem when people have trouble brewing one style of beer, but are very successful brewing other styles.

Esters usually point to yeast issues though. swamp cooler temps can swing quite a bit, and that's usually a recipe for esters. But you've got to start ruling out stuff where you can.

Try brewing an IPA with Reverse Osmosis water. Take a couple water jugs to the local water store, or one of those water machines in front of the grocery store. Fill up how much water you need.

Looks like you brew all-grain, so add 2% Acid (or Acidulated) Malt to your grain bill. That's usually around 4oz in a 5 gallon batch for an IPA.

Then buy some calcium chloride, and gypsum from the LHBS. Add 1tsp of each to every 5 gallons of water.

That's a super basic water profile, but give that a shot and see if it's any better.

In terms of what to brew. You've got everything you need to brew a Pliny clone. Bitter with Nugget or Summit, and pick up about 2oz of Columbus to dry hop with, and you're there.

Is it possible the fruity profile may be under attenuated beer? That's why I asked about the starter.

Ok, this is awesome, just what I am looking for! I do make starters and have a stir plate,and I use Mr. Malt for my rates. I also brew w RO water, but nothing added to it. I don't think it is an attenuation issue, last IPA went from .069 to .011 w the Super and I usually ferment for a min. of 3 weeks. As for the swamp cooler, I ferment in my basement ambient is low to mid 60's and keeping the swamp cool consistently via a hose and recirculating and frozen milk jugs works very well.
Don't want to go the Pliny route until I can make a decent IPA first.

ChadChaney said:

Ok, this is awesome, just what I am looking for! I do make starters and have a stir plate,and I use Mr. Malt for my rates. I also brew w RO water, but nothing added to it. I don't think it is an attenuation issue, last IPA went from .069 to .011 w the Super and I usually ferment for a min. of 3 weeks. As for the swamp cooler, I ferment in my basement ambient is low to mid 60's and keeping the swamp cool consistently via a hose and recirculating and frozen milk jugs works very well.
Don't want to go the Pliny route until I can make a decent IPA first.

Click to expand...

Can you give a typical recipe along with technique (mash temps, boil size) and we'll see if we can figure out what's going on.

A simple thing that might help for the next IPA is following the water chemistry primer- using 1 teaspoon calcium chloride and 1 teaspoon of gypsum in the mash- just to see if it makes a difference.

ChadChaney said:

I also brew w RO water, but nothing added to it.

Click to expand...

I think this is it. You need to do a little reading on building your water profile and the importance of chloride:sulfate ratio when it comes to getting the most from your hops. Adding a tsp of gypsum and epsom salts is a good starting point. As for recipes, there are a ton of good ones out there, but looking at what you have for 5.5 gallons of hop bomb...

13# 2-row
2# wheat
1# crystal 40L

Mash @ 152° F

FWH 1 oz Chinook

1 oz Summit @ 60
1 oz Centennial @ 15
1 oz Simcoe @ 15
1 oz Chinook @ 5
1 oz Centennial @ 5
1 oz Simcoe @ 5
1 oz Chinook @ 0
1 oz Centennial @ 0
1 oz Simcoe @ 0
1 oz Chinook @ Dry Hop
1 oz Centennial @ Dry Hop
1 oz Simcoe @ Dry Hop

i agree with the gypsum additions. i found that as soon as i brought my sulfates up it helped make the bitterness crisper. i always had issues with what i felt was a muddled hop profile. the higher sulfates helped bring the flavor out.

So, here is some more info. I am AG, use beersmith and make 5.5 gallon batches, to keg 5 gallons. I have my settings, for IPA's, as medium body so I usually mash at 154 and have tried both batch sparges and fly sparging. My boil volume is usually 8.1 gallons and I have a plate chiller and immersion chiller, depending on mood I use one or the other. Actually, I will just copy my beersmith page.

Dank IPA V1
American IPA
Type: All Grain Date: 4/20/2012
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal Brewer: Oposition Brewing Co.
Boil Size: 8.01 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My AG Setup
End of Boil Volume 6.76 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5.25 gal Est Mash Efficiency 76.8 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30.0
Taste Notes:
Ingredients


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
15 lbs Pale Ale Malt 2-Row (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 1 90.9 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 3.0 %
8.0 oz Caramel Malt - 10L (Briess) (10.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.0 %
8.0 oz Victory Malt (biscuit) (Briess) (28.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.0 %
1.00 oz Warrior [16.70 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 45.4 IBUs
0.50 oz Chinook [11.80 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 8.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.40 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 9.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [9.90 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 4.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.40 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 9 7.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [9.90 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 10 5.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.40 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 7.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Chinook [11.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 3.2 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 13 3.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [9.90 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 min Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.00 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 min Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg San Diego Super (White Labs #WLP001) [35.49 ml] Yeast 16 -

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.071 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.740 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.017 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.5 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 124.1 %
Bitterness: 94.5 IBUs Calories: 40053.1 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 7.8 SRM
Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 16 lbs 8.0 oz
Sparge Water: 4.83 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F Tun Temperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.20

Mash Steps
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 20.63 qt of water at 163.7 F 152.0 F 60 min

Sparge Step: Batch sparge with 2 steps (0.83gal, 4.00gal) of 168.0 F water
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).



Dank II
American IPA
Type: All Grain Date: 5/7/2012
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal Brewer: Oposition Brewing Co.
Boil Size: 8.01 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My AG Setup
End of Boil Volume 6.76 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5.25 gal Est Mash Efficiency 76.8 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30.0
Taste Notes:
Ingredients


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
13 lbs Pale Ale Malt 2-Row (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 1 86.7 %
1 lbs Victory Malt (biscuit) (Briess) (28.0 SRM) Grain 2 6.7 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.3 %
8.0 oz Caramel Malt - 60L (Briess) (60.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.3 %
1.00 oz Nugget [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 37.1 IBUs
0.25 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 4.6 IBUs
0.25 oz Nugget [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 4.6 IBUs
0.25 oz Simcoe [14.10 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 5.0 IBUs
0.25 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 9 3.4 IBUs
0.25 oz Nugget [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 3.4 IBUs
0.25 oz Simcoe [14.10 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 11 3.6 IBUs
2.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 14.8 IBUs
1.25 oz Simcoe [14.10 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 13 10.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [14.10 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 15 0.0 IBUs

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.064 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.057 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.7 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 6.2 %
Bitterness: 86.5 IBUs Calories: 189.3 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 10.0 SRM
Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out Total Grain Weight: 15 lbs
Sparge Water: 5.12 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F Tun Temperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.20

Mash Steps
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 18.75 qt of water at 162.9 F 150.0 F 75 min

Sparge Step: Fly sparge with 5.12 gal water at 168.0 F
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).



Those are the last 2 IPA attempts, the second one had a bubblegum/fruit aroma during dry hop, but tastes pretty solid, the first one is average at best.

So far, I see that I need to change my water for sure. Do I treat the sparge water as well?

To me, the biggest , defining attribute of a great IPA, is the prescence of a huge dry hop. 4-5 oz for a five gallon batch is not out of line. Hops well spent, IMO. Columbus, to me, give the most bang for the buck for an aroma so thick, and dank you can almost see it.

2nd the big dry hop. I use 3-4 oz for my IPAs. Also, how long are you fermenting/ conditioning? Maybe you're just getting yeast flavors because it hasn't cleared or conditioned long enough.

GlenF said:

2nd the big dry hop. I use 3-4 oz for my IPAs. Also, how long are you fermenting/ conditioning? Maybe you're just getting yeast flavors because it hasn't cleared or conditioned long enough.

Click to expand...

Same thought on dryhops. Also, using straight RO will deprive your yeast of minerals they need to stay healthy and flocculate well. Have you had issues with your ipa's clearing? Use the Gypsum and Calc Chloride as yooper said.

@beerkrump, the grainbill you listed does not even get me to 1.020 in beersmith?

I also seem to get a "dirty", literally a hint of dirt or earth flavor each time

Click to expand...

How old are your hops?

hops are fresh, most are hopunion. Ignore the previous post about gravity in BS, I just can't type, lol.

OK, so I am going to try to brew on Monday. I will add a small amount of acid malt and go with about 12-13 lbs of 2 row, 2 lbs white wheat, but I am not sure how I feel about a whole pound of c40 in the grain bill, how about .5 lb and some special B? As for the hops, I definitely want that earthy, dank flavor so I am thinking Columbus, summit and simcoe and maybe a dash of Centennial? Any ideas? Also will be treating my water too, do I need to treat sparge water as well?

Typically I use about 1.5ml of lactic acid in the sparge water but its not a big deal, just get the calc chloride and gyspsum in there and you'll notice a change.

Ok, so treat the sparge water the same as mash water, got it!


Dank 3
American IPA
Type: All Grain Date: 6/1/2012
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal Brewer: Oposition Brewing Co.
Boil Size: 7.49 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My AG Setup
End of Boil Volume 6.24 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5.25 gal Est Mash Efficiency 70.9 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30.0
Taste Notes:
Ingredients


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
13 lbs Pale Malt (6 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 81.3 %
2 lbs Wheat - White Malt (Briess) (2.3 SRM) Grain 2 12.5 %
1 lbs Caramel Malt - 40L (Briess) (40.0 SRM) Grain 3 6.3 %
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 42.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 5 21.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [14.10 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 21.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 8.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [14.10 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 8.6 IBUs
0.50 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 4.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Summit [17.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 10 5.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [14.10 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Summit [17.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 14 0.0 IBUs

Here is current plan, I will be treating the water as well, do I need a bit of acid malt?

Brewed this up on Monday; 14 lbs of Pale, 2 lbs white wheat, .75 lbs carmel 60L and 8 0z acid malt, forgot to add the special b to the mash, hectic day. Hop schedule was the same as previous post. Smells great, pitched with a 1ltr starter of WL001 and have a rocking 4-5 in krausen. Treated both the mash water and sparge water, can not wait to see if this helps! I also just ordered 65lbs of Marris Otter, 15 lbs of Rahr 2 row and fresh lb of columbus hops from hop Union. I am going to get this right if it kills me, or my brew fund..

Chad, that looks like a right proper dank DIPA you got going there.

It won't kill you, but your taste buds are going to be ruined for any other brew.

Are you not going to dry hop it or did you just leave that out of your last recipe post because it wasn't part of brew day? I'd highly suggest the 4oz+ dry hopping that others have mentioned if you want that dank aroma. I'm particularly curious to here how the acidulated malt affects things. That's something I've not really bothered with in any of my IPAs to date, but may give it a whirl just to see at some point.

Totally going to dry hop, thinking lots of CTZ, and yes I left that out becasue i was just running through my brewday. I am also interested to see what the acidulated malt does in this recipe, I'll keep you posted.

Last IPA in this thread was pretty solid for a few days, but then went the same route as the rest of mine, bitter and dirty tasting. I am thinking maybe it is from the way I force carb? Did the 10 hrs at 30 psi. and then 12 psi for a few days. Going to try the set it at 12 psi and forget it method with this one. This recipe is kind of a use of what I have left, so the grain bill is a bit odd, lol. Suggestions, should I add some acid malt, calcium, chalk, starting with RO water...


MO IPA
American IPA
Type: All Grain Date: 8/12/2012
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal Brewer: Oposition Brewing Co.
Boil Size: 8.01 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My AG Setup
End of Boil Volume 6.76 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5.25 gal Est Mash Efficiency 76.8 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30.0
Taste Notes:
Ingredients


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 46.7 %
7 lbs Wheat - White Malt (Briess) (2.3 SRM) Grain 2 46.7 %
1 lbs Munich Light 10L (Gambrinus) (11.0 SRM) Grain 3 6.7 %
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 4 21.4 IBUs
0.75 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 29.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [7.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 6 4.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 7.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [14.10 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 7.8 IBUs
2.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [7.50 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [14.10 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 min Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35.49 ml] Yeast 12 -

Looking to brew ASAP in the AM, ideas welcome, but fast, lol!

Any time I force carb with high pressure and/or shaking, I get a carbonic acid flavor. That goes away with time but I definitely get that. I use the 12psi and forget it method. A week is good, 2 is better when doing that.

I would try a batch or two with a different hop selection. I find Chinook to be both fruity and tasty like spicy dirt.

I like the rest of your hop profile, i'd just ditch the chinook.

ChadChaney said:

Last IPA in this thread was pretty solid for a few days, but then went the same route as the rest of mine, bitter and dirty tasting. I am thinking maybe it is from the way I force carb? Did the 10 hrs at 30 psi. and then 12 psi for a few days. Going to try the set it at 12 psi and forget it method with this one. This recipe is kind of a use of what I have left, so the grain bill is a bit odd, lol. Suggestions, should I add some acid malt, calcium, chalk, starting with RO water...


MO IPA
American IPA
Type: All Grain Date: 8/12/2012
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal Brewer: Oposition Brewing Co.
Boil Size: 8.01 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My AG Setup
End of Boil Volume 6.76 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5.25 gal Est Mash Efficiency 76.8 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30.0
Taste Notes:
Ingredients


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 46.7 %
7 lbs Wheat - White Malt (Briess) (2.3 SRM) Grain 2 46.7 %
1 lbs Munich Light 10L (Gambrinus) (11.0 SRM) Grain 3 6.7 %
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 4 21.4 IBUs
0.75 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 29.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [7.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 6 4.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 7.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [14.10 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 7.8 IBUs
2.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [7.50 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [14.10 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 min Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35.49 ml] Yeast 12 -

Looking to brew ASAP in the AM, ideas welcome, but fast, lol!

Click to expand...

Download a copy of the EZ water or Bruinwater spreadsheets and target a pale ale profile with RO water. Basically you'll want to add some calcium and sulfate in the form of calcium chloride and gypsum. Do NOT add chalk, and do add some acidulated malt or acid of some sort to the mash in order to get your mash pH around 5.3. Better yet, just read the brewing water primer sticky in the brew science forum.