Poker Etiquette

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JoeMama

JoeMama

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I am an avid TH fan and I play most every night online, and once weekly (free game) at a local bar. I have hosted my own games, built my own poker tables (and the list goes on) Needless to say, I am pretty familliar with the runnings of poker, and the proper etiquette of gameplay and such. In fact, I am usually the one who is calling people on stuff like that. (Not in a dick sort of way but friendly reminders of the RULES)

At any rate, last night I kind of got into it (well, pissed off) a tweeker and a regular of the game because I didnt give a **** what 'her etiquette' was - its the friggin rules.

Heres the scenario.
I am behind the dealer awaiting my turn. Person 2 people ahead of the dealer goes all in. Person after the all in calls (but still has chips) I too call the all in BUT RAISE. (Yes, lets seperate all ins chips and put them in front of her - we now make what is called a SIDE POT) and continue to see cards.

Well, she didnt like this and got mad that I raised over the all in. She seriously expected me (and everyone else) to just call and check the rest of the hand. "You gotta respect the all in. Thats just rude to raise the all in blah blah" **** the all in... This has NOTHING to do with all in. The fact that I CALLED your friends all in has something to do with her. The fact that I RAISED and continued to bet has everything to do with everyone else competing for the side pot.

I honestly think she was pissed that I kept betting and ended up scaring her out of the side pot with junk in my hand. (All in ended up beating me and taking her pot) but ol tweeky still wasnt happy.

Anyone else heard of this "Respect the all in" bullcaca? I think thats a load of ****. Dont tell me I cant raise someones all in - if I have chips and we havent raised/reraised the set amount, then its perfectly legal.
-Me
 
My opinion (but I'm not a casino player) is it's BS. If a short stack goes all in and you've got a good hand, what are you (and the rest of the table) supposed to do? Play for peanuts?
 
Thats pretty much what I figured. Sure there is a such thing as poker etiquette (not betting out of turn, showing your cards, showing someone elses cards, touching someone elses chips) But re-raising an all in I dont think so... Thats poker.
-Me
 
Pappers said:
:D

that just made me laugh! sounds like a high-class game there!
Click to expand...

Meh, this bar is a hole in the wall that has been there for ages. I guess most bars when they hit the point of reminding you of The Simpsons will tend to attract more individuals of this caliber. I like to play there because its close to home, its free, and it keeps the wife from bitching at me for inviting 'strangers' into my household.

I guess having to deal with people like that comes with the territory. It just disgusts me a little more because I remember those days. Its just disgusting to see how blatantly obvious you are to others when you are looking at the tweekishness from the sober side. (Ugh, Ive always hated that **** anyway and the people who did it)
-Me
 
Does this happen to be one of those free poker leagues? I see it all the time.

The 'etiquette' is implicit collusion, and you usually only see it late in tournaments. The idea is that it makes more sense to keep several people in the hand because it's more profitable to knock a player out and advance everyone in the money instead of bluffing someone off the best hand to make a few extra chips. So people usually check it down to the river to increase the odds of knocking the all-in player out.

Now if someone has the nuts and raises everyone else off the hand, no problem. However if we're on the bubble and someone raises everyone off the hand with 72o and loses to the all-in when someone else would have won and knocked them out, I can see people getting pissed off.

-Joe
 
Yeah, this is one of those "we're not in Vegas, there's no reason to play THAT way" type of situations, sounds like. I've had people try to chew me out for check-raising in the same way... "come on, check-raising is for jerks!" Play by the rules of THAT GAME (a lot of times "free" leagues will have some interesting house rules ;) ), make your plays, rake your chips.

FWIW, I've never heard of this "let's call the all-in and check it to the river", unless it's one of the collusion scenarios, either... sometimes people think that there's this unspoken rule that the later stages of a tourney means just biding your time until someone does something "stupid" like go all-in. Then, that's everyone at the tables' opportunity to move up a slot... weird, but people learn weird habits sometimes...
 
I think it falls in line with the same unspoken rule in blackjack that every peer player should be playing by-the-book strategy especially when they make a hit and draw a card the next player would have benefited from. I personally think it's lame to hate on a player that plays within the ACTUAL rules.
 
Nah, she is off her nut. As far as I am concerned all is fair in love, war, and poker. Etiquette are only rules of self conduct. Ie, it's not cool to talk about your hand or ask people about theirs, more or less poker table manners. People do it any ways though.

When I play BJ, I split 10s all the time. People past me get bent saying you should never split tens and it is rude. Their just pissed that I may grab one of 'their' ten cards. Which is BS to begin with.

I have a placard with my house rules in the poker room. Ie a natural straight flush beats 5 of a kind, etc etc. Some one new comes over I just point them to the sign. If they don't like it, they dont have to play.

I was once in a friend TH game, and they had a rebuy set an hour into the game, if you had been knocked out you have to wait for the rebuy time, if you didn;t get knocked out, you could rebuy extra chips. Totally ass backwards and eff'ed up. I was so pissed off I refused to buy and played tight poker for the rest of the night. Played till 4 am but I finally knocked every one out. Then they split the pot all kinds of stupid. first place got %60 and second got %40. This was after the agreed 90/10% that was talked at in the beginning. Never played poker with them again.
 
nostalgia said:
The 'etiquette' is implicit collusion, and you usually only see it late in tournaments. The idea is that it makes more sense to keep several people in the hand because it's more profitable to knock a player out and advance everyone in the money instead of bluffing someone off the best hand to make a few extra chips.
Click to expand...

Exactly, and my guess is that this is what the individual was thinking of and confusing with some sort of etiquette. But as you point out it's not etiquette at all and has nothing to do with "respecting the all in" but rather a tactic occasionally used by the others at the table to maximize the possibility that the all in gets knocked out.

From the OP's description she wasn't the one all in anyway, it was someone else. She was just trying to get to see the rest of the cards for free. Whiner.
 
I can't begin to imagine how many people I have pissed off from slow betting and then a check raise on the river.
 
There is an unwritten rule for this situation that late in tournaments when one player goes all-in and there is a side pot between two others, the others will tend to check it down. The idea is that you don't want to give the all-in player a free shot at tripling up, especially late in a tournament when variance is so high due to high blinds and antes. So, both of the other players check it down in the hopes that one of their hands knocks the all-in player out, and everyone's payout goes up significantly as a consequence. When the difference between 5th and 4th place can mean thousands of dollars, it makes sense to do this to maximize the remaining players' equity.


Many players who aren't as familiar with cash games but do play in tournaments assume that this same unwritten rule also applies to them. They are wrong. There are no scaling payouts, and all-in players can just buy back in on the next hand anyway.
 
Yep. Total BS.

And, the check down bit is not an unwritten rule, but a tournament strategy. As long as the strategy seems like the best idea for all players in the hand, it works just fine. However, it is each and every player's right and choice to play the strategy or not. Many times, I've seen someone with the nuts (but not stone cold) or close to it bet on a later street or raise a called all-in late in a tourney. That's especially true when the side pot might dwarf the main pot.

That's the game. Anyone who gets PO'd at you for doing so either doesn't understand the game or was trying to take a ride on your hand. Without a doubt, they would make the same bet or raise in the same situation if they were holding the same hand. When the ones that are total losers try to take it out on you by attacking with junk, it's just another opportunity to increase your stack.


TL
 
If I read it right (it's early) it sounds like a pretty standard squeeze/sandwich play. I'd have EXPECTED someone to come over the top on me if I called after the all-in. And you'd the the one I'd peg to do it because of your table position.
 
And, the check down bit is not an unwritten rule, but a tournament strategy. As long as the strategy seems like the best idea for all players in the hand, it works just fine. However, it is each and every player's right and choice to play the strategy or not.
Click to expand...

All cooperative strategies, and hence rules (whether written or unwritten) are based upon mutual benefit. While you are correct that it is always a player's choice to bet, there really is an unwritten rule of mutual cooperation in those situations. For career players you have to consider not only that one tournament, but future tournaments as well. If you are a circuit player you will usually end up facing the same opponents many times throughout your career, and it behooves you to choose the strategy which best serves you in the long term as you don't want your opponents pulling the same maneuver on you the next time you're at a final table.

That's one reason professional players often get pissed off at amateurs who do not respect this rule, either through ignorance of the math or due to selfish goals. I'm not saying this girl was a professional player by any means, just explaining the situation from a professional's perspective.

There is a similar phenomenon that takes place with regards to chopping final table payouts.
 
Okay, THAT makes sense. Later in the tourney I can understand this. But when we are in the early stages of the game and I either get a good hand, or decide to donkey and go home early, or just have a mediocre hand that I want to steal the pot knowing that my opponent will eventually fold.

If you re-raise my raise, then the people should be mad at you instead of me when I re-raise your raise. You started it (When I can) :p
-Me
 
F her. I'm at the table to make money. If I have a killer hand and know the person who called the all in has a stack left, I'll raise. Especially in a small buy in tourney or a cash game.

It's about the $$.

B
 
Okay, I just read weird boy's response and understand what he is talking about. But I think the scenario is a little different.

Person A went all in, Person B called, then you called and raised Person B.

Now did you call and raise because you thought your hand was strong enough to beat A and B, or just B in the side pot? If you are simply trying push some one out for side pot money then yes, I can see why that is screwed up. But if it is, Person A should have been happy because you could potentially triple her winnings, she should of kissed you for being an ass :). Know what I mean?
If your hand was weak, then you will still have to show it to A and B to confirm that you are full of crap. Real bad betting strategy IMHO.
If you had the hand to knock 2 people out, well more power to you. If I was sitting on a boat, four of a kind, or possibly three of a kind on the flop, you bet your ass I am either going to come over the top or slow play it to those who can afford it.

I guess to summarize, if you tried to push people out for the side pot and gave the all in player an extra set of chips because of it, then yes that is screwed up and you screwed the table for a few chips.
Had you gone in and won with a real hand, or lost with a respectable hand, then you played the hand right.

People cant get upset before the hands are shown though, which is what happened here. So in this case, I think some one got their feewings hurt and tried to call something that didnt apply. So slap the b!tch and tell her to man up.

Or.... Am I missing something?
 
The "respect my raise" thing comes from back the day when all people played was limit cash games (pre- Chris Moneymaker and pre- WSOP on ESPN).

In a 5-10 limit game, I can only bet $5 on the flop (no more no less) and if you re-raise me, I have no choice but to call it because of the money in the pot. But in the no-limit game, since you can bet whatever you want, the things are different. If you don't want to be re-raised, you need to bet higher or not to make a bet in the first place (or not to call a bet).

BTW and off-subject: I work with the lady who's son just won the 2009 WSOP for $8.5 million. And he is only 21! :)
 
Scooby_Brew said:
BTW and off-subject: I work with a lady who's son just won the 2009 WSOP for $8.5 million. And he is only 21! :)
Click to expand...

The kid obviously played some good poker, but man he had some serious luck in that final table. He was all in and way behind at least twice and hit his one card on the river. All part of the game but he sure seemed to be charmed.

That said, pretty impressive for a kid that young (just like last year) to make it through such a field. No way I'd make it out of day 1.
 
JoeMama said:
I am an avid TH fan and I play most every night online, and once weekly (free game) at a local bar. I have hosted my own games, built my own poker tables (and the list goes on) Needless to say, I am pretty familliar with the runnings of poker, and the proper etiquette of gameplay and such. In fact, I am usually the one who is calling people on stuff like that. (Not in a dick sort of way but friendly reminders of the RULES)

At any rate, last night I kind of got into it (well, pissed off) a tweeker and a regular of the game because I didnt give a **** what 'her etiquette' was - its the friggin rules.

Heres the scenario.
I am behind the dealer awaiting my turn. Person 2 people ahead of the dealer goes all in. Person after the all in calls (but still has chips) I too call the all in BUT RAISE. (Yes, lets seperate all ins chips and put them in front of her - we now make what is called a SIDE POT) and continue to see cards.

Well, she didnt like this and got mad that I raised over the all in. She seriously expected me (and everyone else) to just call and check the rest of the hand. "You gotta respect the all in. Thats just rude to raise the all in blah blah" **** the all in... This has NOTHING to do with all in. The fact that I CALLED your friends all in has something to do with her. The fact that I RAISED and continued to bet has everything to do with everyone else competing for the side pot.

I honestly think she was pissed that I kept betting and ended up scaring her out of the side pot with junk in my hand. (All in ended up beating me and taking her pot) but ol tweeky still wasnt happy.

Anyone else heard of this "Respect the all in" bullcaca? I think thats a load of ****. Dont tell me I cant raise someones all in - if I have chips and we havent raised/reraised the set amount, then its perfectly legal.
-Me
Click to expand...

JoeMama, haven't read the responses yet but I've played poker for many years and go to the WSOP every year since 2004. Here's my take:

First off (and this may not even apply, hard to tell exactly how it went down)...you can't call a bet and then raise. You can just raise but as soon as you say "Call" you have called and you can't raise. I know you see it on TV/whatever where someone says; "I'll see that bet and raise you..." You can't do that. Verbal action is binding. A call is a call and a raise is a raise. If you pushed the call forward without saying anything and then said "raise" or just went back to your stack to raise...can't do that. That's a string bet. Once you push an amount forward (if you didn't say anything) that's your action.

However, you can say "raise"...THEN put the call out there and cut out your raise behind it (makes it easier for the dealer). Because your verbal action was binding.

The next issue I think is what is referred to as 'Implicit Collusion'. This is where a person is all-in in a tournament and two or more players just check it down to the river in an effort to bust the all-in player. As long as those other players don't say anything or agree to anything explicitly then it's fine. If they talk about it or agree to it explicitly then it's just collusion and is considered cheating. Implicit Collusion should really ONLY come into play when in tournament AND where actual payouts make a big difference (i.e. at a final table where busting a player guarantees everyone else a lot more money or something). Early in a tourney it shouldn't be done and everyone should just be trying to get chips. Many people think they should do the implicit collusion thing all the time but that's total BS...ONLY when the payouts in tourney make a big difference should it be done.
 
OK, read the responses and it was covered well.

Ie a natural straight flush beats 5 of a kind,
Click to expand...
As it should. 5 of a kind is not a poker hand...it's really just 4 of a kind with a kicker. 5 of a kind is NOT a poker hand!:)

Check out this post on a poker forum a couple of months before the WSOP, it did not get ONE response until months later after Joe Cada made the main event final table:
My screen name online is jcada99, Plan on playing in as many events as I can for series, Really not interested in staying in a hotel for a month in a half so just pm if anyone is looking for 1 more.
Click to expand...
LOL!
 

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