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Parker36 said:
3) remmy: Any potential C. botulinum would be killed by the boil. Give me a few minutes and I'll explain how the the hops interact with both yeast cells and with various undesirable bacteria, I just need to find some sources to double check some things.
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Yes, I have said myself that the bacteria are killed by boiling. The spores are not.

I understand the mechanism by which hops are anti-fungal and anti-bacterial, however this whole argument that hops will prevent C. Botulinum from growing in wort is extremely hand wavy.
 
remilard said:
Yes, I have said myself that the bacteria are killed by boiling. The spores are not.
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It is true that most companies that package botulism vulnerable food (such as canned green beans, the most common culprit) heat at temperatures around 120C (~250F), it is more because they do not want to cook the edible food rather than because it is the minimum temperature to kill the bacteria. They only heat the produce for between 2-3 minutes at this temperature, then rapidly cool to keep it "fresh". Added to this fact is that the our wort is much more acidic than the environment found in canned foods (which just happen to be right in its wheel house). Thus we can conclude that our boiling (between 200 and 212F depending on you altitude) for 1 hour + is sufficient to destroy most of (if not all) spores from the potentially dangerous bacteria. I suggest reading up
books
for more information if you are still not convinced that our friends from down under's methods are less safe than our own
 
I would love to read up about botulism spores being reliably destroyed by one hour exposure to 100 C and pH of about 5.2. Please list references here.
 
I would think the mere existence of the Tyndallization procedure indicates that hour long bouts of boiling at atmospheric pressure are not sufficient to kill spores.

Tyndallization involves boiling, waiting for spores to germinate, boiling again, rinse repeat.
 
Fatgodzilla,

Sorry if our discussion of this subject offended you. Let me tell you that there was no intention to discredit the no-chill method. The no-chill method is certainly new to us and it seems that it has been used down under much more extensively including the sale of commercial fresh wort.

My intentions are not to banish this method but understand it more fully. From what I know there should be the same risk as canning low acid foods but based on your accounts there is not. So I'd like to expand my knowledge about canning low acid foods.

That's why I brought up the botulism thing and would like this discussion to continue.

If it is ok to keep wort in a cube for an extended time, would it also be ok to can hopped starter wort without a pressure cooker?

Kai
 
Not much info on botulism and wort on the internet other than forum posts. I would guess that wort is never hot packed and then not boiled again in any kind of commercial venture, which may explain the lack of interest in the topic.

Nate Sampson, who I believe is a microbiologist, believes that botulin toxin in hot packed wort is possible but would be extremely rare (as it is in food).

TastyBrew.com | Forum | canned wort/Botulism
 
Fatgodzilla, Sorry if our discussion of this subject offended you...
Click to expand...


Far from offended Kai. I've got extremely thick skin that goes with the thick head. Australians play sport not for fun but to sledge .. we are a weird mob after all. I was expressing my amazement at the depth of the discussion into botulism and how far removed from reality I perceive the threads to be and the Off Topic side bar conversations going on.

In Australian discussions I haven't seen any debate on botulism. We were more concerned about cold breaks, chill haze etc. We just assumed that botulism was not an issue. Aeration is an issue, infection from poor sanitation is an issue. Botulism .. not an issue. You have more chance of botulism as an kit & kilo brewer - add can goo, add sugar, add water, wait till cool then add yeast. Can't see anyone raising that possibility yet.


Let me tell you that there was no intention to discredit the no-chill method. The no-chill method is certainly new to us and it seems that it has been used down under much more extensively including the sale of commercial fresh wort.
Click to expand...

Again, a little amazed that America hasn't got fresh wort kits - business opportunity ? Seems UK also in same boat, though an excuse offered is the number of pubs in UK so close to population base.

My intentions are not to banish this method but understand it more fully. From what I know there should be the same risk as canning low acid foods but based on your accounts there is not. So I'd like to expand my knowledge about canning low acid foods.That's why I brought up the botulism thing and would like this discussion to continue.
Click to expand...

I hope you read the article I cut/pasted from AHB source - the author is a mate and this offers a simple but concise explanation of the process.

There should be a similiar risk of botulism in canning wort extract - read tins of Coopers, as to the no chill of wort. After all, extract is wort that has been evaporated to remove water. Nothing else differs. The extract is not cooked in the can, as a number of food products are; it is stored in the can. The only logical difference I see is that there will be slightly more air stored in a cube and that the canning line will probably have better sanitary process when compared to a home brewer's shed. To the best of knowledge, no one has ever mentioned botulism and cans of extract.


If it is ok to keep wort in a cube for an extended time, would it also be ok to can hopped starter wort without a pressure cooker?
Click to expand...

I assume this is you talking about what I said above .. it's the terminology I can't really decipher. As I see it, the contents of Coopers cans are not pressure cooked. I'll email Coopers directly and see if I can get an answer about how the wort is canned and specifically mention botulism concerns. We'll see what they say.


Cheers
 
I knew my old ServSafe class would come i handy.

the spores have problems going vegetative in sugar solutions, which would be the case in a wort. I do not have a source for exact concentrations/gravities... It is a weird quirk that I do not understand, but it is related to why you do not feed babies honey. When the sugar solution has the bacteria in it, it can only harm an infant eating it due to the non acidic nature of an infants digestive track.

I pulled the following from the wiki (my only source at the moment): "Growth of the bacterium can be prevented by high acidity, high ratio of dissolved sugar, high levels of oxygen, very low levels of moisture or storage at temperatures below 38°F (type A). For example in a low acid, canned vegetable such as green beans that are not heated hot enough to kill the spores (i.e., a pressurized environment) may provide an oxygen free medium for the spores to grow and produce the toxin. On the other hand, pickles are sufficiently acidic to prevent growth; even if the spores are present, they pose no danger to the consumer. Honey, corn syrup, and other sweeteners may contain spores but the spores cannot grow in a highly concentrated sugar solution; however, when a sweetener is diluted in the low oxygen, low acid digestive system of an infant, the spores can grow and produce toxin. As soon as infants begin eating solid food, the digestive juices become too acidic for the bacterium to grow."

Fascinating thread... I have been reading a ton over on the aussie boards...
Corny Instead Of A No-chill Cube..... - AussieHomeBrewer.com

They discuss this technique with cubes, in brew kettles and the thread above, in cornies!
 
Is this what we are talking about as a cube: Search Results


Pol=

Maybe you need to change your sig to be similiar to SpillsMostOfIt from the aussie board:

"--------------------
No Mash Tun. No Chill.

No confirmed fatalities."

:)
 
Fatgodzilla said:
In Australian discussions I haven't seen any debate on botulism. We were more concerned about cold breaks, chill haze etc.
Click to expand...

This is the more technical and beer quality side of the story that can easily be resolved by a sufficient number of good side-by-side experiments. I'm curious to see the outcome. I generally read that wort should be chilled as quick as possible but I haven't seen data that suggests that quicker chilling leads to more haze stable beers.

We just assumed that botulism was not an issue.
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This is what we want to clear here as there might be a health risk. As you can see some suggest it shouldn't be a problem while others have information that suggest that there might be an issue here. I don't think 24hrs are enough but you mention that many brewers keep the unpitched wort for a long time.

You also mention the fresh wort kits. Do you have information on how they are produced? Is it possible that they involve a step in which the wort is heated to a temp sufficient to kill the spores of C.B.?

You have more chance of botulism as an kit & kilo brewer - add can goo, add sugar, add water, wait till cool then add yeast. Can't see anyone raising that possibility yet.
Click to expand...

Again, the concern was raised because of the statement that the wort can be kept for days or weeks. I think the yeast is pitched in less than 24hrs in kit and kilo brewing.


Again, a little amazed that America hasn't got fresh wort kits - business opportunity ? Seems UK also in same boat, though an excuse offered is the number of pubs in UK so close to population base.
Click to expand...

Could this be a shipping issue? The added water makes for more weight and higher shipping costs.


I hope you read the article I cut/pasted from AHB source - the author is a mate and this offers a simple but concise explanation of the process.
Click to expand...

I did and it was the first comprehensive explanation I saw on this. I don't read BYO, so thanks for that.

There should be a similiar risk of botulism in canning wort extract - read tins of Coopers, as to the no chill of wort.
Click to expand...

This goes back to the high sugar concentration.


If you are ok with keeping wort unpitched for days, then this may be a nice option for you guys: Drauflassen - German Brewing Techniques
It allows you to start with less yeast b/c you pitch only part of the wort. The rest is added once the initial volume is at low Kraeusen. It can also be added in stages (i.e. first pitch 1/4 then add 1/4 and than add 1/2).

Kai
 
What about the flavor and aroma of the beer? Does letting it stay hot for so long degrade the aromatic and flavor qualities of the hops? If you are adding hops at flameout, but staying above say 180 degrees for even 20 minutes, doesn't that defeat the purpose a bit? I worry about this even with my ice bath setup. Is this a non-issue?
 
Fascinating thread... I have been reading a ton over on the aussie boards...
Corny Instead Of A No-chill Cube..... - AussieHomeBrewer.com

They discuss this technique with cubes, in brew kettles and the thread above, in cornies
Click to expand...
!


Didn't want to raise that bit about no chilling in fermenters ! Good get chefmike and I expect to see you more often at AHB !

What about the flavor and aroma of the beer? Does letting it stay hot for so long degrade the aromatic and flavor qualities of the hops? If you are adding hops at flameout, but staying above say 180 degrees for even 20 minutes, doesn't that defeat the purpose a bit? I worry about this even with my ice bath setup. Is this a non-issue?
Click to expand...


Certainly an issue, particularly when trying to use Beersmith or Promash. Forgetting completely about the safety of cubing, the next argument in the natural progression is the effect of hot wort and hop oil extraction. Based on what we discussed with a lot of anedotal evidence from the university of the shed but nothing from any authoritative source, I treat the cubed wort as the same as a 25 minute from end of boil addition. Why .. Because. It's as good a rule of thumb as any. I add my aroma hops at flameout then whirlpool and rest my wort for 15 minutes before cubing. I dry hop my beer after fermentation has finished. And for Beersmith treat this as a 25minute addition. The calculated IBUs means about right to my palatte.


I've done my bit with this topic so won't be back. Needless to say if you need to know a little more about brewing in Australia, join the AHB forum and see how the other half does it. The same as I like reading this HBT site for a different slant on life and visit a site in the UK. You can't have too many points of reference !
 
Fatgodzilla said:
I've done my bit with this topic so won't be back. Needless to say if you need to know a little more about brewing in Australia, join the AHB forum and see how the other half does it. The same as I like reading this HBT site for a different slant on life and visit a site in the UK. You can't have too many points of reference !
Click to expand...

You have a link? My interest is piqued.
 
Fatgodzilla said:
I treat the cubed wort as the same as a 25 minute from end of boil addition. Why .. Because. It's as good a rule of thumb as any
Click to expand...

Good point. There are still unisomerized a-acids in the wort some of which will isomerize while the wort is still hot. It is known that the IBUs keep increasing during a whirlpool rest, so I would expect the same from being in the cube.

Kai
 
This has probably already been asked, but when the time comes, why not just use the cube as the fermenter as well? Toss in the yeast, rig up an airlock and be done....
 
KerryD said:
This has probably already been asked, but when the time comes, why not just use the cube as the fermenter as well? Toss in the yeast, rig up an airlock and be done....
Click to expand...

Yeah... I have been pondering this. You would need a blowoff, obviously, you have no headpsace. I have found some great HDPE 5 gallon carboys... but like I said, nearly every brew will be blowing off.

I am going to try this out... reading the Aussies brew boards strengthens my resolve to do so. I am in. Shortens my brew day, saves copious ammounts of water... why not?
 
USplastics

go there, they have everything you can imagine. Wort shrinks about 4%... so hopfeully these true CUBE carboys will handle the shrinkage better than say a bucket.
 
KerryD said:
This has probably already been asked, but when the time comes, why not just use the cube as the fermenter as well? Toss in the yeast, rig up an airlock and be done....
Click to expand...

Other than the headspace issue and, assuming you don't desire to rack away from the trub, this is probably ideal.

Foam control drops would solve the head space problem.
 
Why I can't I get that AHB forum working? I registered and everything but the threads/posts aren't showing up
 
remilard said:
So you would get a 1000 fold reduction with a 75 minute boil. Is that good enough? Hard to say.

This sugar thing is interesting although I know people have gotten bulged cans of extract so something can grow in even very concentrated wort.
Click to expand...

No, the first one is saying the D(100) value is 25 for the spores (this is for the most heat resistant strain). This basically means when heating to 100C (boiling) that 90% of the spores are destroy in 25 minutes. After another 25 minutes, 90% of the remaining 10% are destroyed. If you have a boil that is 75min, you have killed off almost all of the spores (99.9%)

This high percentage of destruction is increased even further by the introduction of an acidic environment (see the second article for the relation between Dvalue, temperature and pH)
 
I always boil 90 mins. I am going with a 6 gallon HDPE carboy for the no chill method.(I think) Why? Why not? I am not STORING my wort in it, I am cooling it for 24 hours, then pitching. I can then beat the heck out of it to aerate the wort, and use the SAME vessel to ferment in. The $$ outlay is almost nil... if it works, great, if not... well, it will make for good reading here.

I have had brews take 72 hours to start fermenting, so I dont see 12-24 hours of slow cooling as being much different. Maybe I am wrong?
 
The Pol said:
I always boil 90 mins. I am going with a 6 gallon HDPE carboy for the no chill method.(I think) Why? Why not? I am not STORING my wort in it, I am cooling it for 24 hours, then pitching. I can then beat the heck out of it to aerate the wort, and use the SAME vessel to ferment in. The $$ outlay is almost nil... if it works, great, if not... well, it will make for good reading here.

I have had brews take 72 hours to start fermenting, so I dont see 12-24 hours of slow cooling as being much different. Maybe I am wrong?
Click to expand...

I'm sure you will be fine. I see no risk to your health (at least nothing above normal sanitation issues). Just do it, we are all interested to see how it turns out
 
Parker36 said:
I'm sure you will be fine. I see no risk to your health (at least nothing above normal sanitation issues). Just do it, we are all interested to see how it turns out
Click to expand...

If I were to STORE the wort, I would get the 5 gallon HDPE... so as to reduce the O2 as much as possible. But since I am not planning to store anything, I am going with the 6 gallon to reduce the blow off/need for foam control issue. If I can make this work, it will reduce my workload, wasted water, need for equipment.

I made a PRO/CON list for the 5 gallon and 6 gallon carboys... the 6gal won by a mile since I am NOT storing wort.
 
Man, this is all very exciting to a new/lazy brewer like myself! I just bought a 5 gallon cooler with the intention of doing deathbrewer's stove top partial mashing techniques, which really seem like a precursor to the Aussie BIAB stuff.

So, I have 2 questions that are not disease related:

1) The materials used in BIAB in the BYO magazine are listed a "voil" or "chiffon". What materials/commercially available bags can we get locally to replicate this? I've ordered a "grain straining bag" but I wonder if there's a way to tell if it will be fine enough, but not too fine. PLEASE someone tell me that the near-disposable paint strainer bags from the home improvement megamart will work, because those puppies are cheap. I've picked up a couple to experiment with now. If they aren't fine enough on their own, would using 2 at a time (one inside the other) work, I wonder?

2) Is there really any difference between using a wort cube and just dumping the wort into a clean 5 gallon carboy, then plugging the carboy with a sanitized solid stopper? This idea came to me recently before I read about the Aussie no-chill method, but I disregarded it as every brew book I said practically screamed that I needed to pitch yeast AS SOON AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.
 
ghpeel said:
2) Is there really any difference between using a wort cube and just dumping the wort into a clean 5 gallon carboy, then plugging the carboy with a sanitized solid stopper? This idea came to me recently before I read about the Aussie no-chill method, but I disregarded it as every brew book I said practically screamed that I needed to pitch yeast AS SOON AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.
Click to expand...

Is the carboy glass? heat + glass= dangerous (temperature changes etc)

I think the 4% reduction in volume of the wort would likely suck the stopper into the carboy.
 
Glass is actually very resistant to heat as long as there aren't large, rapid changes in temp. It can absolutely handle higher temps than plastic, but don't dump boiling wort into a glass carboy surrounded by ice.
 
There is a risk of the glass shattering... it cannot expand when heated without cracking.

The stopper would get sucked in, or the glass would shatter, probably.

HDPE... will "suck in" and handle the 4% shrinkage.

HDPE will handle the temp, the shrinkage... it will do the trick. Will it be a good fermentor? Why not if PET is? I will see, it may work.
 
A glass carboy is likely to shatter if you pour boiling hot wort into it, even at room temperature. And PET carboys (i.e. Better Bottles) will melt. Unless you have a thick HDPE carboy, it is simply not possible to go directly from the boil kettle to a carboy.
 
The Pol, I also think this will be perfectly safe for you, especially since you are not storing it. Will you be doing a 10 gal batch and doing one the traditional cooling method and one in the cube to compare flavor profiles?
 
I am doing a brew that I have made 5+ times, and currently have kegged. If there are any real differences, I should be able to tell. It is a really simple brew with a really simple hop schedule... so we will see.

I am going to whirlpool and let it settle for a bit prior to racking to the carboy. There are a multitude of things that could go right or wrong here... it will be interesting to try an entirely new (to me) process.
 
ghpeel said:
1) The materials used in BIAB in the BYO magazine are listed a "voil" or "chiffon". What materials/commercially available bags can we get locally to replicate this? I've ordered a "grain straining bag" but I wonder if there's a way to tell if it will be fine enough, but not too fine. PLEASE someone tell me that the near-disposable paint strainer bags from the home improvement megamart will work, because those puppies are cheap. I've picked up a couple to experiment with now. If they aren't fine enough on their own, would using 2 at a time (one inside the other) work, I wonder?
Click to expand...

Yea, the paint bags should work. You may need to use 2 just to contain all the grains.

My wife found some stuff at a fabric store and that's what my bag is made of. I made a bag within a bag for mine, mostly because the material I got seemed kinda flimsy and I didn't wan it to rip. It hasn't in my BiaB experiments.
 

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