Tasty "lager" using ale process?

During my first homebrew store visit, the store staff briefly mentioned that there are lagers, or at least lager-like beers that can be made using the ale method. By "ale method," I mean a fermentation 65-72ish degrees vs. colder,thus no refrigerated fermentation required.

I have a red ale in secondary and will be making a Fat Tire clone as soon as I bottle the red ale, and next want to make a lager, something lighter, pale in color, crisp. However, I don't have the refrigeration space to do this authentically using the traditional lager method.

Does anyone have good "lager-like" recipes or recommendations using the ale method? I can use LME/DME and grain or other additives, and I am open to a good kit or kit plus additives. I don't do all-grain yet.

I appreciate the insight. Also, if you have any comments on what the appropriate primary, secondary and bottling times are, that would be most helpful.

thats' called a "California Common" or "steam" beer. It's a beer that uses a lager yeast, but Ale temperatures.

You can probably find a lot of "california common" recipes and brewing processes with some searching.

-walker

Plenty of california common recipes to be found, a number of which try to mimic the commerically available "Anchor Steam" beer. They are pretty extract + grain friendly too.

Ive made some light beers with dry lager yeast fermenting in the 68-72 range with great sucess.

Do you guys consider anchor steam light and crisp? From my experiances it is neither.

Also, if you dont have any way to lager, you can brew most lager recipes, and use Wyeast's 1007 German Ale yeast. Its well know for its lager-like characteristic's, and will ferment at temps of 55 degrees and up.

The downside to it is its poor flocculation, and unless you are filtering it, it will leave a good amount in suspension.

try using White Labs German Ale/Kolsch yeast strain. a little cold conditioning for 3-4 weeks once racked to secondary will do it good. you don't have too, but it will help. the higher ferm temps will yield more fruitty-esthery flavors.

You might try a champagne yeast like lalvin EC-1118. It's very clean and works from 45° to 95°F.
http://consumer.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/ec1118.html

I'm using it for a special batch right now.

Danstar, their beer yeast div., is sending me a bunch of samples. They have an ale yeast that is often used to brew lager recipes as ales. I think Nottingham is the one they suggest for this purpose.
http://consumer.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/nottingham.html


Good luck,
Denny

Thor said:

... next want to make a lager, something lighter, pale in color, crisp. However, I don't have the refrigeration space to do this authentically using the traditional lager method.

Does anyone have good "lager-like" recipes or recommendations using the ale method? I can use LME/DME and grain or other additives, and I am open to a good kit or kit plus additives. I don't do all-grain yet.

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Don't mean to knock anyone here, but I don't think the responses about "California Common Beer" are really going to give you what you're looking for. I think a much closer approximation would be to go for a Koelsch, and it will be mostly a matter of what yeast you choose.

I'm detailing my Koelsch attempt in another thread (it's still in primary), but here are some suggestions so far:
* If you're really going for a pale color like Heineken or Pilsner Urquell rather than Pale-as-in-not-Guinness, you shouldn't use any adjuncts darker than Vienna, and not much of that. I used 2 ounces (!) of Munich in my batch, and it's quite orange. Real lager brewers are probably chuckling right now, but it was in a recipe I found, I swear...
* some common lager adjuncts (esp. Carapils) require mashing, but you won't use a lot of them and your entire grain bill could be under 2 lbs. That's OK, it's good to learn partial mashing
* If you use WLP029 Koelsch yeast, it's slow to start and does stink of sulphur for a couple days in a row (or at least mine did). Try to resist opening it up and stirring; it should be fine if you give the sealed fermenter a shake if it hasn't started in 24 hours or so.

More details after I bottle and sample it... Oh, also if you want the taste to be really "crisp" you should probably do a decoction (partial) mash; I didn't but I think I will try that next time I make something like this.

DeRoux's Broux said:

try using White Labs German Ale/Kolsch yeast strain. a little cold conditioning for 3-4 weeks once racked to secondary will do it good. you don't have too, but it will help. the higher ferm temps will yield more fruitty-esthery flavors.

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munichs go good in octoberfest/marzen, ambers, browns, etc.

if you want a chech pilz or light lager, do lager. using a kolsch strain at higher ferm temps will give you a fruity, blonde ale. a california common is a lager strain fermented at a higher temps, close to ale temp, opposite a kolsch strain (ale at lager temps). still good, but not a pilsner urquell.
i was in the same boat. i wanted to do a pilz, but didn't have the equipment or conditions to do it. you can brew a beer w/ lager yeast at higher, ale like temps, and it might taste okay. some give bubble gum like flavors, some are just fruitier (like a german ale/kolsch strain). be happy brewing a blonde ale or an alt (darker german ale) or kolsch. just don't expect to get a lager beer if you don't have the means to ferment below 55 degrees, and lager for 3-6 weeks at 30-32 degrees.

Denny's Brew said:

You might try a champagne yeast like lalvin EC-1118. It's very clean and works from 45° to 95°F.
http://consumer.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/ec1118.html

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I can't really get a hold of any lager yeasts, but I have a whole load of different lalvin champagne yeasts and a few ale yeasts. Been using the ale yeasts for ale so far. But want to try a lager this winter as it stays about 3-10C in this outdoor shaded area I have.

So in the right temperatures would a champagne yeast make any sort of decent lager? I'd love to get rid of this lalvin before it goes out of date..

Peetreek, others...are there any commercially available examples of a Koelsch? I never heard of that variety before.

Thanks!

Run a web search: koelsch beer "united states" texas

#1 on google
Shiner Summer Stock is another entry from Texas' iconic Spoetzl Brewery. This is an all-too rare koelsch-style beer.

Real Koelsch is made only in the city of Cologne (if you define real as, they own the style name)

The Shiner Koelsch just started showing up around here a few weeks ago...seemed oddly ill-timed to me.

kolschs are ganing in popularity, thankfully, in smaller micro-breweries and brewpubs around America. Here in Durango one brewery sells their Colorado Kolsch in CO and NM in bombers. Kolschs were brewed in response to the popularity of czech style pilsners; I'm glad they did, Kolschs are one of my favorites in the summer time, light, crisp, a little fruity-- good stuff. I didnt know that the yeast liked cool temperatures, I'm glad i found that out before i tried to brew one, which probably wouldnt be til next summer anyways. Duvel- i've heard that champagne yeasts work pretty well at a huge range of temperatures and produce a pretty neutral flavor, probably kinda like california ale yeasts, they can be used for just about anything. Also, to whoever started this, if you want a light crisp beer but dont have frig space for lagering I would brew a blonde, or as said, a kolsch. blonde is about as light and crisp as an ale gets.

Thor said:

Peetreek, others...are there any commercially available examples of a Koelsch? I never heard of that variety before.

Thanks!

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I don't have any suggestions other than the ones already posted; unfortunately I missed the Shiner Koelsch when I was in Texas, but I've never had a good one at any American micros. It's all I drink when I'm in Koeln, though

And to address your original question, getting a lager-like beer with an ale process, I think this is the way to go. I just racked my Koelsch to secondary, and took a small taste as I was measuring the gravity; it's GOOD. I used Czech pilsner ingredients (Vienna malt, only Saaz hops) and it actually tastes incredibly like a Czech pilsner. I'm actually pleasantly surprised, and I'm picky about that style. It's a little too bitter than I usually like in a lager; I used about 30 IBU of saaz, which is probably over the top. Anyway, here's a summary of my recipe with some suggested changes; it does use a partial mash, but you can just leave out the carapils if that's too much of a hassle for you. PM or post a reply if you want any more detail.

Grain Bill:
* 3.3 lbs, Muntons extra-light liquid extract
* 2 lbs, Muntons light English dry extract (2 x 1 lb. packet)
* 1 lb. Pilsner malt (grain)
* 1/2 lb. Vienna malt (grain; 2.2-2.9 Lovibond)
* 1/2 lb. Carapils (grain; a/k/a dextrin malt, carafoam)
* 2 oz Munich (grain; 9.9-13 Lovibond)

Things I might do differently with the grain next time: leave out the Munich or reduce it to 1 oz. I complained earlier that the wort was "orange", but once the haze settled, it's only a bit too dark for a Pils. Way lighter than an Amber ale or anything like that.

Hops: 28-30 IBU

* 1 oz Saaz pellets, 3.7 α
* 4 oz Saaz whole leaves, 2.6 α

I only used 2 different kinds of Saaz because the store had 4-oz packets of whole flowers, but let you measure your own pellets. In retrospect, this is a bit much as I suggested earlier, 20 IBU is probably plenty and you could live with only 4 oz of hops.

Yeast:

* "German Koelsch" (Whitelabs product #WLP029)

Misc: 1 Tbsp Irish Moss

Mini-mash:
Take all grains (approx. 2.1 lbs), heat 2 qt water to 125F. Strike grains, rest at 120 for 20 minutes (protein rest). Add 1/2 or 1 qt boiling water to raise temp to 140F for a 25-minute beta rest. Add a full qt boiling water to raise the temp to 155 or 160 for a 30-minute alpha rest. Sparge with at least 3 qt water at 170F.

Boil:
Remove grains & add extracts to boil pot, bring to rolling boil. At minute 0, add 2 oz leaf plus 1 oz pellet Saaz (bittering). At time 40, add 1 oz leaf Saaz (flavor). At time 45, add Irish Moss (fining). At time 58, add 1 oz leaf Saaz (aroma). Time 60, stop boiling and start cooling. I left my aroma hops in the primary.

Fermenting: I pitched the yeast at 70F, and left my fermenter in a cool room with the window open a crack so it would stay around 65F for the duration of primary. The ferment was slow to start (shake the bucket, don't open and stir, if it still hasn't started in 24 hr) and smelled of sulphur a LOT, but the beer seems to be turning out great. I just racked to secondary after about 16 days of primary; I'll keep you posted when I bottle.

White Labs has a San Fransisco Lager yeast (WLP810) that ferments best from 58 to 65 degrees. My buddy brewed an excellent bock with this at 70 degrees.

Pyramid has a Curve Ball (Kolsch style seasonal), St. Arnold has a Fancy Lawnmower (Kolsche style).

The Happy Mug said:

White Labs has a San Fransisco Lager yeast (WLP810) that ferments best from 58 to 65 degrees. My buddy brewed an excellent bock with this at 70 degrees.

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Is there much problem with using California Lager yeast at 70-72 degrees ? (Wyeast 2112 or WLP810)

I have heard that you can still get good results in the low 70's, and would like to try since I am not set up to use lager temps.

spinoza said:

Is there much problem with using California Lager yeast at 70-72 degrees ? (Wyeast 2112 or WLP810)

I have heard that you can still get good results in the low 70's, and would like to try since I am not set up to use lager temps.

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I would be very interested in the answer to this as well.

AHammer16 said:

Do you guys consider anchor steam light and crisp? From my experiances it is neither.

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Nope. I don't really dig the caramel/crystal taste I get from it.