Can't get good late hopping/dry hopping results

I've had a lot of trouble getting good late hopping and dry hopping results... No matter what I do I can't seem to get a good hop aroma. Ive recently brewed two beers that I would think should be very aroma forward but lack very much thereof:

ISA: 10 gal, 5.5%, mostly 2-row and wheat. after bittering... 3oz @20m, 3oz@5m 3oz@0m 3oz dry (split evenly at each addition between centannial, summit, and cascade)

IIPA: 5 gal, 9.5% after bittering... 5.5oz within 15m, and 3.5 oz dry (distributed between simcoe, columbus, centennial, and amarillo)

I use whole dry hops for wet and dry. I stir the dry hops into 2ndary and then let sit for 1-2 wks. The hops are purchased from reputable HBS (assuming good quality). Despite this, there is extremely little aroma when I tap the keg.

Is there something im missing? Do i need to stir more often? How do professional brewers (Green Flash, 10 barrel, and Russian River come to mind) achieve such good results? For the IIPA I used twice as much hops as a similar Green Flash IPA clone recipe.. yet no aroma...

I wouldn't say you are doing anything wrong. However, I have never stirred mine. I throw them in on top, let them sit for a week or two, then keg. Have always had great resuts.

your water profile can make a big difference. try some gypsum in your mash water to bring out the hop character.

Try a 30 minute hop "aroma steep" if you aren't already. Doing this really gave me that aroma/flavor/mouthfeel i had been lacking.

Bisco_Ben said:

Try a 30 minute hop "aroma steep" if you aren't already. Doing this really gave me that aroma/flavor/mouthfeel i had been lacking.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I will try that for sure. Anything for that aroma i can't seem to get..

ShinyBuddha said:

your water profile can make a big difference. try some gypsum in your mash water to bring out the hop character.

Click to expand...

cool, I will look into that for sure. Although, some of the professional brewers I have spoken to here in Portland say that gypsum is not necessary with our water profile

I used to have the same problem. I don't know how your technique is, but I was always dry hopping too early. If there's any activity in your beer, it will flush that aroma right out with the CO2. I wait until primary is waaaaay done, try to tease out every gravity point that I can...then I wait another week. Then I rack to secondary and dry hop. That should help preserve some of that aroma for you.

My dry hop experience has been "iffy." If I just throw them in, they clog up the valve and tube when I bottle. I put them in a muslin bag to stop that. But, either way and even if I boil the bag, I end up with a filmy white skin on the top that looks like an infection. I'm not convinced dry hops are all that sterile. What say you?

Use pellets. Its done wonders for me.

What's your kegging procedure? Do you speed carb and/or vent the keg at any point? I've ruined some glorious hop aroma by overcarbing kegs and venting them.

Try adding a hop tea to your keg before you transfer the beer. I'm using a pretty similar schedule for my hops and while I wasn't dissapointed in the aroma, the hop tea finally got it to where I wanted to be.

I am also using more hops than you though.

For your 0min addition, cool the wort to 180F before you add it. Then, let it steep for 20-30min.

Brewham said:

My dry hop experience has been "iffy." If I just throw them in, they clog up the valve and tube when I bottle. I put them in a muslin bag to stop that. But, either way and even if I boil the bag, I end up with a filmy white skin on the top that looks like an infection. I'm not convinced dry hops are all that sterile. What say you?

Click to expand...

I'd say it's Brett and I've had that once but just transfer from under the pellicle. It will hardly show through the hop character.

I had a similar problem and it was high ph because I was adding 5.2 to my mash water to raise the ph. Stopped using 5.2 and problem solved.

It could be related to water chemistry- what kind of water are you using?

How long does it take you to chill? Taking a long time to chill can make late addition hops more like flavor hops.

Even without dryhopping, you should have plenty of hop aroma and flavor with those recipes.

Bierliebhaber said:

For your 0min addition, cool the wort to 180F before you add it. Then, let it steep for 20-30min.

Click to expand...

Bingo!

I know it's been discussed here before, but I've had pretty good aroma from just putting the hops in a hop bag and dropping it into the keg. Even if the keg its for a little bit in the fridge, the aroma never diminishes. This method has become my favorite for dry hopping. To hopefully deter any infections I simply swish my hop bag around in my starsan bucket fefore adding the hops. 6 batches this way an no issues yet.

If you're trying to get a good aroma you want to steep @145F to preserve the mycrene oil, anything above 147F will boil this off. I've done this many times and have found it to work very well. Water chemistry is a big factor as well.

Could be mash pH. I never got good hop flavor or aroma before I dialed in my mash pH (especially in lighter beers).

ICWiener said:

I used to have the same problem. I don't know how your technique is, but I was always dry hopping too early. If there's any activity in your beer, it will flush that aroma right out with the CO2. I wait until primary is waaaaay done, try to tease out every gravity point that I can...then I wait another week. Then I rack to secondary and dry hop. That should help preserve some of that aroma for you.

Click to expand...

I disagree that the CO2 knocks it out. Firestone dry hops during primary and secondary. I find that my hop aroma was killed by my chilling techniques and not submersing the hops in the fermentor. I use a plate chiller which does work great but unless I chill the wort quickly as a whole I lose the aroma and leaving the dry hops on top doesn't do me any good. Adding a marble to the bag sinks it and has improved the aroma alot.

I grind my hop pellets in an old school coffee grinder....The hops stay somewhat suspended, but if you give the carboy a bump once a day for a couple days you can watch the hop particles fall beautifully. Cover racking cane with a filter of choice, great hop flavor and aroma is sure to follow. I must say, I like the idea of adding hops in the keg, I will be trying that to. Cheers

Bierliebhaber said:

For your 0min addition, cool the wort to 180F before you add it. Then, let it steep for 20-30min.

Click to expand...

^This is a great technique for getting more hope aroma and flavor. I actually will skip all hop additions (except for bitter) and then pitch hops right after the boil, no cooling. The extra heat seems to add more flavor, if thats what you are looking for. If you listen to a lot of brewers talk, they say their IPAs have all of their flavor and aroma added in whirlpool, which is pretty much the same thing as the steep.

I was reading DFH extreme brewing book yesterday. The Russian River guy said they use between 0.5-1.5oz per gallon. So there is certainly room for a couple more oz there, if you like their beers.

You might consider dry hopping in the primary. I've been battling a similar issue with my hoppy beers. I've been attacking it from all angles and it seems like oxidation is the most likely culprit. It muddles the hop flavor no matter how many ounces you add. My last batch I skipped dry hopping altogether and I seemed to get a much cleaner hop flavor. Next batch ill dry hop in primary. People will tell you that using a secondary wont cause that much oxidation, but my experience is different. Perhaps I'm just sensitive to oxidation... I can't stand old, stale hoppy beers... But it might be something to look into.

Great thread, albeit confusing with so many different "facts".

Portland water is very low in minerals. Usually for an IPA you want to spike the sulphates to 50-150 ppm. I'm from Seattle and have a very similar profile. Sulphates at 0-5 ppm. Granted you should still have something coming through when dryhopping. I would check the quality of the hops or your technique. Oxidation, mentioned a few threads back, could be a good culprit.

Portland water is very low in minerals. Usually for an IPA you want to spike the sulphates to 50-150 ppm. I'm from Seattle and have a very similar profile. Sulphates at 0-5 ppm. Granted you should still have something coming through when dryhopping. I would check the quality of the hops or your brewing technique. Oxidation, mentioned a few threads back, could be a good culprit.

leginx said:

Portland water is very low in minerals. Usually for an IPA you want to spike the sulphates to 50-150 ppm. I'm from Seattle and have a very similar profile. Sulphates at 0-5 ppm. Granted you should still have something coming through when dryhopping. I would check the quality of the hops or your brewing technique. Oxidation, mentioned a few threads back, could be a good culprit.

Click to expand...

The ratio of sulphate to chloride is what youre looking for. Anything up to 9:1 is acceptable with that being the absolute highest you would want to go. I like to do around 6:1 in my IPA's but thats just how I like them.

jfrank85 said:

The ratio of sulphate to chloride is what youre looking for. Anything up to 9:1 is acceptable with that being the absolute highest you would want to go. I like to do around 6:1 in my IPA's but thats just how I like them.

Click to expand...

I disagree. Sulphate adds a sharpness to your bitter, it has no affect on hop flavor or aroma. I brew with ZERO sulphate in my beers and have terrific aroma and flavor in my hoppy beers. Some people prefer the bite of sulphate but I find beers without it (especially highly bitter beers) to be more pleasant.

SC_Ryan said:

I disagree. Sulphate adds a sharpness to your bitter, it has no affect on hop flavor or aroma. I brew with ZERO sulphate in my beers and have terrific aroma and flavor in my hoppy beers. Some people prefer the bite of sulphate but I find beers without it (especially highly bitter beers) to be more pleasant.

Click to expand...

I was merely commenting on the quote about sulphate numbers, not it's correlation to aroma or flavor.

I wasn't trying to rip anybody. Just share my experience.

Do you think FWH or mash hopping would help with aroma?

I've mash hopped with no noticeable difference. A lot of people report good results with FWH but I can't say I've noticed a huge difference with FWH. I think astringency is the OP's problem. Astringency can really strip a beer of a lot of hop flavor and aroma. Astringency could come from oxidation, high or low mash pH or staling. With that many dry hops those beers should be very hop forward.

leginx said:

Portland water is very low in minerals.

Click to expand...

Is it low in calcium? How about bicarbonate?

jfrank85 said:

Do you think FWH or mash hopping would help with aroma?

Click to expand...

I've tried it both at same time. The aroma is more forward now but I haven't tried them separately so I couldn't tell you which has the best contribution.

SC_Ryan said:

Is it low in calcium? How about bicarbonate?

Click to expand...

Yup. In both. Here's my (Seattle's) water profile which is almost identical to Portland's.
Ca 9
Mg 1
HCO3 18
SO4 2
Na 4
Cl 5

Quick question. How are treating your water for chlorine and chloramines, or are you using spring water?

A good 20-30 minute hop stand seems to yield better results than dry hopping for me, but to each their own. Water adjustments aside, something I almost never see mentioned is the psi for your kegs. If when dispensing down the side of the glass you don't get a least an inch of head, try turning up the psi, that should help release more aroma from your beers.

I always dry hop in the secondary before kegging with whole hops in hop bags weighted with a marble this along with a flame-out addition seems to do the trick