American Amber Ale Zach & Jack's African Amber

Bitchin said:

Unsure. I misread Bowen's original hopping comments. I don't think the original is double dry hopped. In such a subtly dry hopped beer, their dry hops are likely only added in the keg (if they still do it this way). While the home brewer can do this, the same effect could be achieved in the late primary or in a secondary if you use one.

Hopping in the keg can leech tannins and unwanted flavors over time in larger hopping quantities but I have hopped the keg in earlier versions without troubles in this beer.

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That makes sense. It was 2008 when I was there. I wasn’t a homebrewer at the time, but it couldn’t have been more than 2-4oz for the whole 15gal keg. They talked about letting it mature for 2 weeks before taping but that the flavor of the beer would change as time went on. Curious as to what they do now, 10 years later.

VipperOfVipp said:

That makes sense. It was 2008 when I was there. I wasn’t a homebrewer at the time, but it couldn’t have been more than 2-4oz for the whole 15gal keg. They talked about letting it mature for 2 weeks before taping but that the flavor of the beer would change as time went on. Curious as to what they do now, 10 years later.

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I find that this beer peaks at about 4 weeks from brew day. Dry hops go into the primary warm on day 5, cold crash on day 10 and the primary is racked to a keg on Day 12. I carbonate and let it sit cold for a couple weeks before tapping.

So after my mistake of cold crashing waaaay to soon in order to halt fermentation (and subsequently overcarbing the bottles once because the yeast had more work to do), mine is finally in a good place. Just had to bleed off a little carbonation in each bottle.

This is a really interesting beer. First off it is ridiculously easy drinking, but I've found that between the ESB yeast, the nice dry hop and the maltiness of the grain bill you get three different flavors, and they all hit at different times. I taste a slight hoppy citrus flavor right off the bat, which then fades into a little bit of bread (sourdoughy), and then a pleasant yeasty aftertaste. These flavors have yet to "meld" if you will. I'm far past 4 weeks from bottling and would have though some sort of merging of flavors would have occurred at this point, or maybe I was expecting something different than my result (as I have never tasted the original).

Is my experience the norm or should I wait on this until the flavors come together a bit more?

troglodytes said:

So after my mistake of cold crashing waaaay to soon in order to halt fermentation (and subsequently overcarbing the bottles once because the yeast had more work to do), mine is finally in a good place. Just had to bleed off a little carbonation in each bottle.

This is a really interesting beer. First off it is ridiculously easy drinking, but I've found that between the ESB yeast, the nice dry hop and the maltiness of the grain bill you get three different flavors, and they all hit at different times. I taste a slight hoppy citrus flavor right off the bat, which then fades into a little bit of bread (sourdoughy), and then a pleasant yeasty aftertaste. These flavors have yet to "meld" if you will. I'm far past 4 weeks from bottling and would have though some sort of merging of flavors would have occurred at this point, or maybe I was expecting something different than my result (as I have never tasted the original).

Is my experience the norm or should I wait on this until the flavors come together a bit more?

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Well then, you just have try the original. Hehehehe. The hops should be the first thing you notice but not overpowering hop with fruity esters. Just a modest floral/citrusy thing you get when the cascade and mt hood come together. The malt plays a role here but in a secondary manner. Next the rich maltiness starts to come through but again, not overpoweringly so. Just round, fat and refreshing. There is a hop earthiness in the flavor which also tends to taste tobacco'ish when it warms up a little. Then everything kinda blends together and fades before you take the next sip. It's a real drinker.

Bitchin said:

Well then, you just have try the original. Hehehehe. The hops should be the first thing you notice but not overpowering hop with fruity esters. Just a modest floral/citrusy thing you get when the cascade and mt hood come together. The malt plays a role here but in a secondary manner. Next the rich maltiness starts to come through but again, not overpoweringly so. Just round, fat and refreshing. There is a hop earthiness in the flavor which also tends to taste tobacco'ish when it warms up a little. Then everything kinda blends together and fades before you take the next sip. It's a real drinker.

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Your descriptions sounds really close to my experience. I'm liking what I have, mine's just a little thin which probably means my rich maltiness is reduced and replaced with a little too much yeast flavor. At the rate I'm drinking these bottles, this batch won't be long for this world. I'm going to do this again and increase my mash temp and pitch at .5 million cells per mL per degree instead of 1 million cells just to get that final gravity to be at 1.016 instead of 1.012 (which judging by my carb level is where I think I ended up).

I finally tapped my keg just over 6 weeks from brew day. The hop boldness is down some from the two bottle conditioned beers. Don't get me wrong, I love hops, but the flavor balanced out much nicer this way. Still get a hit of cascade hops, but the malt shines through a little more.

If I brew this again, I will split the crystal malts equally between 120 and 60 to try a different profile.

Bowen1911 said:

I finally tapped my keg just over 6 weeks from brew day. The hop boldness is down some from the two bottle conditioned beers. Don't get me wrong, I love hops, but the flavor balanced out much nicer this way. Still get a hit of cascade hops, but the malt shines through a little more.

If I brew this again, I will split the crystal malts equally between 120 and 60 to try a different profile.

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Dwightr8 reports using 3/4 lb C120 with good results. His recipe is great. The original is reported to be all C120 but I've not been able to balance the flavor and color using all C120 myself without reducing below 3/4 lb. I found it a tad too abrasive. We understand the crystal addition to be heavy in this beer so backing off too far on the C120 didn't seem to be the right approach. All C80 was too light and lacked character. A 50:50 blend with C80 hits the mark for me and provides that smooth but expressive dark crystal character. This may relate to process or even malt suppliers.

There are infinite combinations of malts that will arrive you at a particular SRM but very few combinations that will also meet the target flavor profile. 3 beers with the same SRM can have 3 different hues and 3 different flavors, so the SRM scale is really quite sterile by nature. It stands to reason that there is in fact more than one way to skin the cat... in this case M&J's African Amber. But this becomes a matter of damn close, close enough, and "other". The same applies to hops and other ingredients.

The most effective approach when cloning is always to start with the same ingredients and scaled quantities as the brewery uses (when known) and to compensate for the differences in each home brewer's equipment (which has a definite impact), emulating the processes as closely as possible.

The obvious fermentation temp, mash temp, boil times etc are usually talked about but the little things like mash pH, pitching rates, water composition, or even the shape of the fermenter aren't. This is where the skill of the home brewer comes into play. Making those subtle (and not so subtle) tweaks to come closer to the clone you are attempting on your own system.

I'm not sure that a beer can be 100% cloned because even the same brewery's batches vary due to seasonal variations in ingredients, and even replacing a key piece of their equipment. But I do believe that you can come damn close to the point where only an experienced palate can tell the difference.

This clone threads contains a lot of data recon and trial and error which has been honed as the clone recipe gets dialed in. It is possible that the actual M&J's recipe has evolved over time. Everyone has done a great job here. Although there are differences in yeast and we don't know anything about water treatment, I still think that this recipe is pretty much there. Here is what the more successful renditions tend to look like.

OG 1.058-1.060
TG 1.016
SRM 12-13
ABV 5.8%
30-35 IBU

~70% Base Malt
~10% Light Munich
~10% Wheat Malt
6-7% C120 (or a blend of C120/C80)

~1.5 oz Cascade 60 min
1 oz Mt Hood 5-10 min
~1 oz Cascade dry hop

Mash 155-156F
60 Min boil
English Yeast, culture some M&J's if you can but WY1968 also good

Fermentation temp varies with yeast but higher temps ~72F with SO4 work well. Age for 3 weeks cold.

2.3-2.5 vols CO2

I decided to look at the water in the Redmond, WA area. There were 3 sources in the analysis sheets provided to me - Well #5, Tolt Filtration Plant, and Tolt Distribution. Keep in mind that we don't know what Mac & Jack's does with their brewing water but it's likely beefed up to better suit the 12-13 SRM African Amber. I have included the ions, noting where estimations needed to be made given that the water analysis did not provide 4 data points. I then created a sample water profile that would provide a balanced beer in the suitable color range based upon residual alkalinity. Does anyone have any thoughts on the appropriate water profile? Maybe they just carbon filter from the city supply?

Keeping this thread alive. I happened to notice on Mac & Jack's website, which really didn't seem to have too much on it back in the day but it looks like they've re-vamped. For this brew they list Cascade and Nugget hops, anyone tried using Nugget as the bittering over Centennial?


https://www.macandjacks.com/africanamber/

NarrowsBrewCo said:

Keeping this thread alive. I happened to notice on Mac & Jack's website, which really didn't seem to have too much on it back in the day but it looks like they've re-vamped. For this brew they list Cascade and Nugget hops, anyone tried using Nugget as the bittering over Centennial?


https://www.macandjacks.com/africanamber/

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The small amount of bittering hop used shouldn't make a significant difference. You'd probably need a side by side taste test to really tell. If you do try it, let us know how Nugget works out. Cheers!

I haven't had the real deal in a very long time since we moved out of state, but I figured if we're trying to get close it might be worth a shot to use the same hop profile. Looking to brew this up soon either way and I'll post my results in here.

NarrowsBrewCo said:

Keeping this thread alive. I happened to notice on Mac & Jack's website, which really didn't seem to have too much on it back in the day but it looks like they've re-vamped. For this brew they list Cascade and Nugget hops, anyone tried using Nugget as the bittering over Centennial?


https://www.macandjacks.com/africanamber/

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Yes. I used Nugget last time I brewed this. Always used Cascade to bitter before. Then a bit of Mt. Hood at 5 minutes. This last time I used Nugget at 60 min and 5 min. Then dry hopped with Cascade. I'll probably stick with the Nugget. Not sure it was much different, but less hops to get the correct IBU is a plus.

I always use nugget to bitter, just recently switched to magnum tho

We're learning a lot about hops these days through all the research which fortunately now goes far beyond the former focus on simply maximizing bitterness. The bittering hops can actually have an effect on the late hops and even dry hops due to the interaction of the oils. I had a Kolsch the other day and I asked about their late hops because it was notably flavorful for this style. They added 45-min hops and I was surprised how much residual flavor and aroma it had. So we can see that there is potential for chemistry even with bittering hops. Like sound waves, you have constructive and deconstructive interaction amongst oils and the outcome is heavily dependent upon the hops selected.

While I think it'd be minor in this particular beer, the choice of bittering hop should probably be dictated by what M&J actually uses if we're cloning. I can't help but wonder whether they moved to Nugget over the years and if so, how long they have been doing so.

Or have they just not talked about the Nugget.

Cascade clearly takes a lead role but we don't know where the Nugget is used either. I guess we can assume it's bittering but breweries like Green Flash also use it for late additions and even dry hopping. Brewcat used Nugget at the end as well. There are even some similarities between Nugget and Mt Hood.

...just when you think you have it all figured out. Hehehehe

Boom here is my attempt (Left) to the real deal (right). Pumped for the outcome, most people have said it tastes just as good if not better than the real deal.

Thanks for the tips!

NarrowsBrewCo said:

Boom here is my attempt (Left) to the real deal (right). Pumped for the outcome, most people have said it tastes just as good if not better than the real deal.

Thanks for the tips!

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What was your recipe?

brewcat said:

What was your recipe?

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Hey Brewcat,
Sorry I got sidetracked here's what I went with on mine:

11# Pale Malt
1 # Munich
1 # Crystal 80L
1/2 # Carapils

Hops:

1 oz Centennial @ 60
1 oz Cascade @ 5
1 oz Cascade @ 0
1 oz Cascade Dry Hop

Yeast:
London Ale III (I had harvested from a previous NEIPA batch, so figured I'd use this one up. Really think it helped with the cloudiness and the smoothness of this beer. I took the yeast I had previously harvested and built a 1.5 L starter a day or so ahead, mainly to get the yeast alive and kicking again and to grow a bit.

Water:

I started with RO and added the following (I used the Beersmith 3 water profile tool, utilizing the 'Amber Balanced' profile):

Mash:
2.33 g Calcium Chloride
0.99 g Baking Soda
1.11 g Gypsum
1.84 g Epsom Salt
.5 tbsp lactic acid (This was added to offset estimated Ph levels from Beersmith)

Sparge:
2.04 g Calcium Chloride
0.87 g Baking Soda
0.98 g Gypsum
1.61 g Epsom Salt

A couple notes:

I undershot my water volumes so this resulted in a stronger than expected Amber. My target OG was 1.064, I ended up at 1.070. Luckily FG didn't dry out too much and hit 1.012 for a 6.7% ABV. It's a very smooth drinker, it does have a little more citrus than the real deal but you still get that awesome caramel on the back end. Overall its a great drinker, and somewhat dangerous. I fermented at 68 degrees in a SS Brewbucket that's equipped with the FTSs if you're curious. Force carbed and was drank pretty quickly.

Cheers!

NarrowsBrewCo said:

Hey Brewcat,
Sorry I got sidetracked here's what I went with on mine:

11# Pale Malt
1 # Munich
1 # Crystal 80L
1/2 # Carapils

Hops:

1 oz Centennial @ 60
1 oz Cascade @ 5
1 oz Cascade @ 0
1 oz Cascade Dry Hop

Yeast:
London Ale III (I had harvested from a previous NEIPA batch, so figured I'd use this one up. Really think it helped with the cloudiness and the smoothness of this beer. I took the yeast I had previously harvested and built a 1.5 L starter a day or so ahead, mainly to get the yeast alive and kicking again and to grow a bit.

Water:

I started with RO and added the following (I used the Beersmith 3 water profile tool, utilizing the 'Amber Balanced' profile):

Mash:
2.33 g Calcium Chloride
0.99 g Baking Soda
1.11 g Gypsum
1.84 g Epsom Salt
.5 tbsp lactic acid (This was added to offset estimated Ph levels from Beersmith)

Sparge:
2.04 g Calcium Chloride
0.87 g Baking Soda
0.98 g Gypsum
1.61 g Epsom Salt

A couple notes:

I undershot my water volumes so this resulted in a stronger than expected Amber. My target OG was 1.064, I ended up at 1.070. Luckily FG didn't dry out too much and hit 1.012 for a 6.7% ABV. It's a very smooth drinker, it does have a little more citrus than the real deal but you still get that awesome caramel on the back end. Overall its a great drinker, and somewhat dangerous. I fermented at 68 degrees in a SS Brewbucket that's equipped with the FTSs if you're curious. Force carbed and was drank pretty quickly.

Cheers!

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No wheat?

dwightr8 said:

No wheat?

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Nope no wheat here.