recipe design discussion

I am thinking it might be useful to have a design discussion tied into the various styles in the recipe database. I am thinking a sticky related to each style that would discuss the style and particulars related to designing beers in that style.

I think it would be great to help people move away from simply brewing other people's recipes and onto understanding what makes particular recipes stand out.

If others agree I will lead the charge and start at the top of the recipe data base and plow down. But first I want to hear what others think and what information would be seen as helpful towards this effort. For example, my recipes tend to be all-grain and yet many extract brewers are out there, so the cross over will be important.

Brewpastor said:

I am thinking it might be useful to have a design discussion tied into the various styles in the recipe database. I am thinking a sticky related to each style that would discuss the style and particulars related to designing beers in that style.

I think it would be great to help people move away from simply brewing other people's recipes and onto understanding what makes particular recipes stand out.

If others agree I will lead the charge and start at the top of the recipe data base and plow down. But first I want to hear what others think and what information would be seen as helpful towards this effort. For example, my recipes tend to be all-grain and yet many extract brewers are out there, so the cross over will be important.

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Are you planning on quoting BJCP guidelines/info?

Good idea.

I like this idea, too. I'd recommend anyone starting to design their own get a copy of Designing Great Beers, which is phenomenal, I think, in this regard. With that said, there are a lot of styles that aren't covered, and there is always room for further discussion.

think this is a great idea. Often, I just wing it when designing recipes. I'd love to know more about what makes great beers.

I like the idea--there's a lot of collective experience here in brewing various styles.

Speaking of recipe design, Brewpastor, I notice that you mix base grains in a lot of your recipes (like e.g. 1/2 two-row, half pilsen). What's the strategy on that? I brewed your Bastard Lager (which uses that strategy) this fall and it was great, BTW.

Dude said:

Are you planning on quoting BJCP guidelines/info?

Good idea.

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I think that is a good starting place. Also the material around ingredients from dESIGNING gREAT bEERS WOULD BE USEFUL, ESPECIALLY IN SHOWING THE CORE INGREDIENTS IN A STYLE AND THE POSSIBLE VARIANTS IN THE SAME. (Sorry for all the caps. I am not shouting, I just hit the wrong key).

BJCP guidelines are here, BTW:

http://www.bjcp.org/stylecenter.html

Downloaded them the other day so that I could speak more intelligently regarding adherence to style in the beer swap judging. Not that this is the most important issue at all, but it's something to be considered...

Tom, Having designed my own beers for the past seven years I'd be happy to provide you some assistance with this. I think the members, and visitors could stand to benefit from something useful that works in regards to recipes that have been tried and proven.
I can't imagine just grabbing any old recipe off the internet and running with it, without fully understanding the recipes components in relation the the brewing style.

Glibbidy said:

Tom, Having designed my own beers for the past seven years I'd be happy to provide you some assistance with this. I think the members, and visitors could stand to benefit from something useful that works in regards to recipes that have been tried and proven.
I can't imagine just grabbing any old recipe off the internet and running with it, without fully understanding the recipes components in relation the the brewing style.

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Exactly. Now what are the basics we should cover?

We should probably start out with base malts, and then move forward from there.

Discussing the merits of using domestic (depending on where you live), and imported malts, and how they can affect the final product.
For instance: blending malts....

Using a combo if domestic pilsner (North American) with German Pilsner to create a crisp clean lager. Choice of raw materials can contribute to natural flaws in beers (unbeknownst to most brewers)
I.E. the husky/grainy phenol present in some North american Malts that jsut isn't there in European malts. If this is too deep stop me now, and I'll migrate the disussion to more basic concepts, like which base malts to use in regards to styles, and which specialty grains fall into specific styles....

Shouldn't this be a part of the wiki?

the_bird said:

Shouldn't this be a part of the wiki?

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Honestly, I don't want to spend a bunch of time writing up material for this only to have it deleted and replaced by some noob. I am not opposed to this being a community effort, but I am not interested in participating in another cluster f#ck like we get around here from time to time.

Brewpastor said:

Honestly, I don't want to spend a bunch of time writing up material for this only to have it deleted and replaced by some noob. I am not opposed to this being a community effort, but I am not interested in participating in another cluster f#ck like we get around here from time to time.

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What, are you worried about something like this happening?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0222071fuzzy1.html

I am now! Thanks for that.

As a new brewer, I would love this! I've been too intimidated to try to formulate my own recipes, and a resource that gives me the information would be great!

I am in favor of this, too -- would especially appreciate explanation of the types of flavors that various malts can give to a beer - in my case since not doing AG, I'd like to know how to add particular flavors, colors, aromas to my extract beers via steeped grains. Which grains add sweetness via non-fermentables, which add "maltiness", "buscuit", etc.
Same concept for hops -- if I am shooting for a citrusy scent and flavor without hints of grapefruit, vs. WITH hints of grapefruit, vs. TOTAL GRAPEFRUIT SCENT/FLAVOR, etc...
AWESOME IDEA to do this!

If I get time I'll put it in the Wiki.

They'res no noob action in the Wiki.

I think the wiki would be a perfect place. Is there some way to set up a review/editorial process so that noobs can still contribute but can't mess things up? I know some wiki software allows this kind of control. And if a noob (or anyone else for that matter) proves that they are helpful, they could be granted more open access.

I am thinking it should start with the most common brewing styles ie: Pale Ale, IPA, Brown, Stout , Porter etc. If you break it down, then someone could just shoot over to the style of beer they want to brew and read about it. Save some time not having to read paragraphs of info that could include a couple of styles! Just a thought.

m3rkury said:

I think the wiki would be a perfect place. Is there some way to set up a review/editorial process so that noobs can still contribute but can't mess things up? I know some wiki software allows this kind of control. And if a noob (or anyone else for that matter) proves that they are helpful, they could be granted more open access.

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My understanding is that everything is backed up, so that if something really good is taken down, it could easily be restored. Presumably, if someone was putting up crap, they could be IP banned from making changes.

I really think this does belong in the wiki - otherwise, why have a wiki at all?

Yeah I totaly agree with this

this is a really good idea

I was messing around with recipator just yesterday and had no idea what certain grains or hops did

I'd help if I could

take it easy

This is a great idea. Would be very helpful. The books & web stories sometimes contradict each other, which leads to confusion and then dumb questions.

the_bird said:

BJCP guidelines are here, BTW:

http://www.bjcp.org/stylecenter.html

Downloaded them the other day so that I could speak more intelligently regarding adherence to style in the beer swap judging. Not that this is the most important issue at all, but it's something to be considered...

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Nice resource, Thanks

Please ask if we can be of assistance.....this is a great idea!

I have from day one, based my classic styles off of the BJCP guidelines. IMO, what better way to start? In fact that is how I designed the flow of my spreadsheet. So the long and short of it is, this is a good idea imo.

The Wiki already has a very good section on both hops and malt varieties. We need a link to this from the recipe data base in the form of a sticky.

What I am suggesting are good recipe parameters tied to the recipe database. (Pale Ale: 2-row pale malt, preferably of British orign, crystal malt....)

A recipe guide line and structure so you can plug bits in type of thing.

Sounds good

Bump - Has this gone anywhere since the thread fizzled out?

I like it! When I'm trying to design a recipe, I read the BJCP guidelines but I always feel like I could use more info... go for it!

Lets try it on one recipe. Say a classic IPA. (Not AIPA)

I guess you'd want to know the range of OG's to match the ABV.
The types of base malts usable and amounts to hit the OG.
The types of adjuncts and quantities
The Types and Quantities of hops to hit the IBUs
The yeast applicable.
Mash temp.


Anything Else.

Once we've done on and got a feel for it we could work through the list.
I guess basically we are looking for parameters.

Maybe we should attack this as a once-per-week thing... like, next Monday, we start an American Pale Ale discussion thread. We start out with the BJCP description, maybe crib some info from Ray Daniels. Then, we all add our own perspective - for example, I'm very happy with the APA I just did that has a couple pounds of Vienna malt for character.

Maybe set up a separate section for these discussions? Try and keep the idle chit-chat to a minimum (I know I'm the biggest offender in that area).

It seemed to me that the group wanted to take it to the wiki and since my original idea was different then that and I wasn't really interested in that I let it go.

Since then, though, the wiki was massively vandalized, justifying BP's concern. I don't know the status of the wiki rebuild, so I would be inclined to do this in the regular forums; we can always cut-and-paste the best info into the wiki later.

see https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=24739

I'd do it in the forums and when it's done use it in the Wiki.
That way the good info is always current and not burried with time.

the_bird said:

Since then, though, the wiki was massively vandalized, justifying BP's concern. I don't know the status of the wiki rebuild, so I would be inclined to do this in the regular forums; we can always cut-and-paste the best info into the wiki later.

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What happened to the Wiki???

I don't know how much as been fixed, but it got f*ckered up really bad by someone, someone who made changes that were not easy to fix. I'm not sure the current status, I haven't been there for a while.

was just there looked fine to me, BTW I started the designing thread, got tired of all the talk and no action

Saw that, Pumbaa, looks good as a starting point. I'd still like to see some style-specifics added, however that is done.

the_bird said:

Saw that, Pumbaa, looks good as a starting point. I'd still like to see some style-specifics added, however that is done.

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first you hit reply, then you type . . .