Chiller Pricing

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maztec

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Not to start a chiller debate or yet another chiller thread (yact), but I am looking into buying one, exploring my options, and trying to figure out what an appropriate price would be. Especially with the reduction in the price of copper these days.

What I think I want is a counter-flow copper wort chiller. I was thinking of getting a plate chiller, but it just seems like too much trouble. I am not interested in an immersion chiller because it is a lot of surface area to keep clean. Yes, I understand that I will have to keep the insides of tubing clean in the counter-flow chiller, but that doesn't seem as bad, plus running hot, sterile water through and then flushing it after seems simpler to me.

The big question here is what should I be paying for a counter-flow? I don't really have the time to make my own at the moment, so buying one seems appropriate. Nevertheless, I have seen their prices all over the place. Plus, what is a good counter-flow to get? I did a search through the history and never really reached a conclusion on which I should buy or what exactly I should look for in one - other than length.

Thank you for the help!

M
 
You should expect to pay up to $125 for a counterflow chiller made out of copper tubing inserted into a rubber outer hose. On a counterflow chiller made totally of copper you could expect to pay from $175 to over $200. Check ebay for some good deals.
 
I am not interested in an immersion chiller because it is a lot of surface area to keep clean. M

Sorry, but I don't really understand this. Cleaning an IC extremely easy. Just rinse / clean after use, drop it in the kettle 15 minutes prior to flame out and it will sanitize itself. Of all the chiller types, an IC is the easiest to clean.

Mike
 
Save your money... Instead of getting a $200 CFC... buy a March Pump and a 50ft IC and outfit it to make a Whirlpool Immersible Chiller... Its the best option for any brew set up...
 
Sorry, but I don't really understand this. Cleaning an IC extremely easy. Just rinse / clean after use, drop it in the kettle 15 minutes prior to flame out and it will sanitize itself. Of all the chiller types, an IC is the easiest to clean.

Mike

+1 on that. If it takes me more than 4 minutes to clean my IC after a brew, I'd be surprised. I have zero concerns about infections due to an Immersion Chiller.
 
Sorry, but I don't really understand this. Cleaning an IC extremely easy. Just rinse / clean after use, drop it in the kettle 15 minutes prior to flame out and it will sanitize itself. Of all the chiller types, an IC is the easiest to clean.

Mike

I also agree with this post. If ease of use is your biggest concern, IC is definitely the way to go. By far the easiest type of chiller to clean. Not having to worry about cleaning the inside of the chiller and being able to clean by simply dropping the IC in the boil makes this the easiest way to go.
 
As someone who has used all three types of chillers (currently using a plate), I can say with confidence that if you don't have a pump, a 1/2" x 50' IC is really the way to go. It will cost you about $60 in copper and garden hose fittings. If you eventually do buy a pump for other liquid moving utility, you can use it to whirlpool.
 
Sorry, but I don't really understand this. Cleaning an IC extremely easy. Just rinse / clean after use, drop it in the kettle 15 minutes prior to flame out and it will sanitize itself. Of all the chiller types, an IC is the easiest to clean.

Mike

I have a ridiculously small sink and no option for outside washing. I do most of my cleaning in buckets, but anything near the same size gets to be a real hassle to clean. So a post-use cleaning is going to be a real hassle. However, point taken on the sanitizing and other responses. And I will read more on the whirlpool use, but I have not read anything that was clear enough for me to actually understand what was going on without spending twenty minutes attempting to visualize. Next step: visualize.
 
If ease of use is your biggest concern, IC is definitely the way to go.

More like ease of use vs ease of cleaning in my particular setup. That, and I have a hard time seeing how to clean the goo from between the coils in an IC setup, but I might just have to get one and figure it out myself, all 50ft of it. .. oh and, I have seen plenty ICs advertised as 50ft both online and in person and none of them have looked like 50ft of copper tubing to me, more like 20-30ft, but I could be wrong on that.
 
Cleaning an IC post use is as easy as dunking it into a bucket of of hot water.

An IC of about 11" in diameter will use 3 feet of copper per coil. That's about 15 coils high + the length used to go up and over the pot. It does look a lot shorter than it really is.

The whirlpooling thing is just about keeping the wort moving quickly past the coils to maximize the cooling efficiency. You can do this by stirring manually as well.
 
Thanks Bobby_M. That is about what I had been calculating: 50'/pi*d=Coils. So 11" diameter = 17.3 coils, 12" diameter = 16 coils. Of course, that isn't counting the extra quarter inch or so in the rise or the end pieces, which is where you reach 15 coils.

I am going to go on the bet that the units I have been seeing were not 50'. Most were 10" diameter and 10-13 coils high. That is closer to the 25-35' range.

Hmm, two more questions:
1) How do you keep your pumps clean? What type of pumps are people using anyway? (I suppose I could search for that separately).
2) What is the benefit/difference between an all copper CFC and a garden hose CFC, other than cost?
 
What is the benefit/difference between an all copper CFC and a garden hose CFC, other than cost?

I would say that alot of the hose based chillers use 3/8" inner copper tubing while an all copper CFC can have up to a 5/8" convoluted (twisted) copper tube which continually turbulates the wort as it flows through making the chiller more efficient. The outer tubing tends to be 3/4" to 7/8" copper. It is up to you to determine what you can afford and what efficiency you are willing to live with.
 
The all copper CFCs look a lot better and you COULD do an oven heat sanitizing every now and then. I think they're overpriced for what you get. There is an efficiency increase for having the core convoluted because it turbulates both the wort inside and the coolant outside. Again, not worth the money to me.

Pump = March 809-HS for about $130.

Cleaning the pump and chiller is as easy as running hot water through after the brew session and the occasional recirculation of hot oxyclean or PBW.
 
I actually use an IC that is made from only 25 ft of 3/8" copper tubing, and it works great for 5 gallon batches, and ok 10 gallon batches. I bought a 50 ft coil of refrigerator copper coil for about 40 bucks at lowes. (Cerro at Lowe's: 3/8" ODx50' Copper Refrigeration Tubing) I then cut it in half and made two ICs and sold one to a friend to help defray the costs. Unless you are planning on doing bigger batches, you can easily use a 25 ft IC and cool your batches to pitching temps within 5-10 minutes.

As for cleaning, it is easier because you don't really need to clean anything. You simply dunk it in a bucket of hot water to rinse off the crud, and next time you brew, you submerge it in the boiling wort for the final 15 minutes to sterilize. Done.

Counterflow and plate chillers are definitely more efficient and faster to chill, but you have to deal with cleaning them internally. Not that tough, but still tougher than the IC. Also, if you are thinking of running it with a march pump you are talking about a lot more money.
 
Hmm, two more questions:
1) How do you keep your pumps clean? What type of pumps are people using anyway? (I suppose I could search for that separately).

If you are going to use a pump, it has to be a magnetic impeller pump because other pumps can contaminate the wort with oil. Also, it has to be constructed with food grade plastics. Basically, you need to use a march pump and you can get them from most online homebrew shops. Search Results
 
Cool. Thanks for the information folks. Which way I end up going will depend on pricing in the end, but this was a lot of help. Obviously, I will likely go IC after this chat. And will consider getting a pump later.

Now, to see if I can find a 6-7 gallon brew pot that will fit on top of my gas stove. I have two 4 gallon ones that work well, but would like to be able to fit it all in one pot.
 
Oh, and the other reason I was considering CFC was amount of water used while chilling. I have enough environmentalist friends and relatives that the less water used the less I hear them whine while drinking my brew ;).
 
Oh, and the other reason I was considering CFC was amount of water used while chilling. I have enough environmentalist friends and relatives that the less water used the less I hear them whine while drinking my brew ;).

Now this I can understand. SWMBO works for a clean air nonprofit and I hear it from her every time I brew about how much water I dump down the drain for each batch. She has no complaints when we are sitting around on a hot day drinking the results however.
 
BackBayBrewing: GLW said fine to an IC, as long as I have enough hose to put the water into a bucket outside so she can water plants. Yay! Now, what I should do is find an old wine barrel to pour the excess water into, but I don't think that's going to happen in the current house.
 
Cool. Thanks for the information folks. Which way I end up going will depend on pricing in the end, but this was a lot of help. Obviously, I will likely go IC after this chat. And will consider getting a pump later.

Now, to see if I can find a 6-7 gallon brew pot that will fit on top of my gas stove. I have two 4 gallon ones that work well, but would like to be able to fit it all in one pot.

How big of a stove do you have? I suspect that you are going to have a difficult time bring 5-6 gallons of wort to a rolling boil on a regular stove.
 
How big of a stove do you have? I suspect that you are going to have a difficult time bring 5-6 gallons of wort to a rolling boil on a regular stove.

He has a gas stove. Shouldn't be too big of a deal as long as he has a decent burner. I have a large 8 gallon pot that I do 5 gallon boils in, and despite the over-sized pot I can roll a boil pretty good.

Lid on with a towel on the lid I can roll the boil straight to the top of the pot (lid only on for bringing to boil). Lid half way on, its boiling as vigorously as I've boiled anything, and with lid totally off its still respectable. Not that big of a stove either.
 
Jeff: I don't have a problem bringing 4 gallons to a rolling boil .... and I haven't had problems with bringing several large pots to boil at the same time. We'll see on how it goes!

I have a natural gas stove with a power burner, I believe 14,200 BTU.

If I remember correctly, the formula for boiling water is:
Number of Gallons * 8.3 pounds per gallon * Temperature Rise (212F - Water Temperature) = BTUs. Then, efficiency of the pot, stovetop, and room temperature/etc come into play, which usually drive overall efficiency down to between 40% and 60%.

So, for me, it would be: 7 g * 8.3 lb/g * (212F - 68F) = 8,366 BTU.

If I put a lid on it to get to a boil that should up my efficiency. Plus, my house stays fairly warm. So 14,200*60% = 8,520 BTU or 14,200*40% = 5,680 BTU. Thus, it should take me 1 to 1.5 hours to bring 7 gallons to boil.

Now, I don't know the evaporation rate, yet, on the 8 gallon pot I just found, but assuming it fits to about what everything else I have does.. to get a 5 gallon batch, I will probably evaporate a half gallon per hour (average). So, really, I need to start with 5.75-6 gallons for 1 hour to get to boil, plus 1 hour boil. Assuming I start with 6 gallons, that means the BTUs I actually need are 7,171 BTU. Which seems totally within reason.

Does that seem about right? Is there anything wrong with taking up to 1 hour to get to a boil?

Thanks!


Oh! And I just ordered my IC, yay!
 
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