BCS and BrewTroller/FermTroller question.

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emjay

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I'm about ready to finish off my brew room (the room itself), so this info will be handy before everything is closed off.

Basically, I will have my PC in that room, as well as my eBrewery and ferm chamber. I'd like to know how the latter two will communicate with my PC. Will there be a panel next to the BCS brewery which I can connect with an ethernet to a switch (which my PC will also be connected to)? Same question for the BrewTroller/FermTroller... and if I can't simply hardwire either of them to my nextwork, are there similar systems that CAN function like that?

I want to be able to run a couple ethernet cables to the appropriate spot so that I can just install a jack on the wall in order to keep things neat and tidy. But the walls will be closed very soon, so I'm hoping to figure this out right now without having to rush to research and plan the entire control systems (potentially making mistakes) while the walls are still open.
 
I ran two CAT6 cables from my brewing area to a router in my workshop area. One is for the BCS-460 and the other is for a PC. I prefer wired connections when operations might be time critical, a dropped wireless connection can cause major problems during the boil for instance. I would recommend putting in an ethernet cable into more than one spot in the brewery. At the least, run some cable and tape it to the side of a stud. You can always cut a hole and fish the wire to a faceplate in the future. Take photos of each wall before closing them up, invaluable for finding pipes and wiring in the future.

Where practical, I run two cables to each location that I have an internet device even though I only have 1 outlet in the wall plate, never know when I might change something or add a new device. We have multiple buildings at our home and have buried plastic pipe runs between them all for pulling any type of cable that I want. I thought that as long as I have a trench dug for electric service to a building I might as well bury a couple of 1" plastic water pipes for either water or signal cables. The cost of pipe was minimal compared to the total cost of digging and filling in a trench.
 
Yeah, I prefer wired connections too. Looks like I'll have about 8 cat6 jacks in that room... one for brewery, one for ferm chamber, two for PC (teamed connection, for 2gbit) and 4 for home theater equipment. I may take your suggestion and add another by the brewery.

I guess I'm going with a BCS system though. Kind of nervous about having to build something so complex, but hopefully I'll manage.

Do you know if the BCS can control ferm temps too? I'm planning on one where I can keep 4-8 fermentors each at separate temps.
 
Do you know if the BCS can control ferm temps too? I'm planning on one where I can keep 4-8 fermentors each at separate temps.

Absolutely! I use a 460 to control two separate chambers (when I'm not brewing). Top chamber is heat only (red lamp) that uses hysteresis around center temp based on thermometer placed in the fermenting beer temp. I have a second thermometer that simply measures air temp, and programmed a failsafe to shut off heating if the chamber gets above 85 during heat cycling. Bottom chamber is for lagers, and features a bypassed A/C unit and heat lamp. Again I control heat/cool based on beer temp, but also include an air temp reading to keep temps above 35 (to avoid A/C coil freezeup) and below 85. Programming is pretty simple once you've played around with it, and it works really well. Data logger feature is also handy to see how things are progressing. I basically only have to change a few programming variables to switch from fermentation temps, to diacetyl rest and step lagering.

Go for it! :ban:
 
Absolutely! I use a 460 to control two separate chambers (when I'm not brewing). Top chamber is heat only (red lamp) that uses hysteresis around center temp based on thermometer placed in the fermenting beer temp. I have a second thermometer that simply measures air temp, and programmed a failsafe to shut off heating if the chamber gets above 85 during heat cycling. Bottom chamber is for lagers, and features a bypassed A/C unit and heat lamp. Again I control heat/cool based on beer temp, but also include an air temp reading to keep temps above 35 (to avoid A/C coil freezeup) and below 85. Programming is pretty simple once you've played around with it, and it works really well. Data logger feature is also handy to see how things are progressing. I basically only have to change a few programming variables to switch from fermentation temps, to diacetyl rest and step lagering.

Go for it! :ban:

Cool, thanks for the info. I guess my only other question is whether a single BCS unit is able to control both the brewery (ie HLT and mash temps, and boil) AND the ferm chamber (ie multiple ferm temps) *simultaneously*, or if I'll need a second unit in order to do both.
 
Also a yes to that, but you would need enough analog temperature inputs to pull off both. The 462 has 8 I believe.

Basically what you do is setup separate processes for brewing and fermentation. For example, I have a primary brewing process with 7 steps, and separate fermentation processes for each of my two fermentation chambers. You can turn them on/off separately and run them simultaneously. Very neat.
P
 
Also a yes to that, but you would need enough analog temperature inputs to pull off both. The 462 has 8 I believe.

Basically what you do is setup separate processes for brewing and fermentation. For example, I have a primary brewing process with 7 steps, and separate fermentation processes for each of my two fermentation chambers. You can turn them on/off separately and run them simultaneously. Very neat.
P

Excellent. Leads me to another question though...

If I have my panel by the brewery (plugged into both a power outlet and ethernet jack right beside it), it's obviously simple to run the necessary temp probes from the brewery to the panel.

But if my ferm chamber is in an opposite corner of the room, wouldn't I need to run the temp probes to the panel somehow? How can I do this neatly, given the length I'm already going to to run lines for everything in the walls? My initial thought is to have an ethernet cable run from the ferm chamber location directly to the panel location, and using the 4 wire pairs (8 total) within the cable to basically carry the signal for 4 temp probes. Is this even possible with the types of temp probes that work with the BCS? Is there a better way of doing this?
 
I mounted my BCS on a wall near my fermentation chamber in a box with SSR's for heating/cooling the chamber. I run two CAT5 cables out to my brewery control panel when brewing. These two cables contain all of the signals from the BCS so the brewery operates as if the BCS were in the contol panel. An advantage of this is that if I have a problem with the brewery and shut it down I don't loose the BCS status and still know where I am in the brewing process. I like having the BCS powered from a separate source rather than from the 50 Amp brewery source.
 
I mounted my BCS on a wall near my fermentation chamber in a box with SSR's for heating/cooling the chamber. I run two CAT5 cables out to my brewery control panel when brewing. These two cables contain all of the signals from the BCS so the brewery operates as if the BCS were in the contol panel. An advantage of this is that if I have a problem with the brewery and shut it down I don't loose the BCS status and still know where I am in the brewing process. I like having the BCS powered from a separate source rather than from the 50 Amp brewery source.

Why do you need two cat5 cables to run between the panels? Is one not enough? I already have one by the ferm chamber (and a coax f-type) but running a second one to that particular spot may be a challenge.
 
Why do you need two cat5 cables to run between the panels? Is one not enough? I already have one by the ferm chamber (and a coax f-type) but running a second one to that particular spot may be a challenge.

In this case I'm not using the CAT5 cables for ethernet, each pin-out from the BCS-460 goes to a wire in a CAT5 cable. The BCS is mounted about 15 feet away from the brewery controller, so the CAT5 cables are just used as connecting wire. I haven't found any cross talk or signal loss problems so far. I did use color coded cables and jacks just to make connecting things easier. If I had a BCS-462 with more inputs and outputs I probably would have used an old RS-232 25pin cable for simplicity.
 
In this case I'm not using the CAT5 cables for ethernet, each pin-out from the BCS-460 goes to a wire in a CAT5 cable. The BCS is mounted about 15 feet away from the brewery controller, so the CAT5 cables are just used as connecting wire. I haven't found any cross talk or signal loss problems so far. I did use color coded cables and jacks just to make connecting things easier. If I had a BCS-462 with more inputs and outputs I probably would have used an old RS-232 25pin cable for simplicity.

I'm not sure I can find the stuff necessary for wiring a RS-232 serial connection through the walls. Since the real rush is just getting what I need into the walls, maybe you can help me here.

I'm going to have an eHERMS brewery with a temp probe for each of the 3 vessels. I would then like to use the rest of the temp inputs I can on my ferm chamber (if I'm not mistaken, that would be a maximum of 5, right?).

I like your idea of having the actual BCS away from the 50A brewery panel. So I'm wondering if you can help me figure out how many cables (run through the walls to jacks in wallplates) need to go from where to where in order to connect the various component panels with each other to communicate all the temps. I see two options. 1 is to have the BCS be a part of the ferm chamber's control panel, and the other would be to have it as a separate, third panel next to either my PC or my switch in the next room over.

Hopefully I'm being clear with the info I need. A rough diagram showing which cable runs where would be helpful, but is not absolutely necessary. I just need to know how many cables, of what type (at the moment I'm using cat6), and from where to where they all go, before all the walls get closed up. I'd do the research myself and just go with trial and error if I wasn't facing this looming, largely permanent deadline. If you're willing to help me out but I'm not being clear enough about what exactly it is that I need, please let me know of any questions you might have!

Thanks.
 
emjay,

To begin with you will need an ethernet connection to your home network no matter where you place the BCS. The BCS-460 pin out diagram shows 6 output lines, 4 switch input lines, 4 temperature input lines, 2 expansion lines, + 5v line and 3 ground lines (all ground lines basically the same). That's 18 lines for the entire BCS-460. I didn't use the 2 expansion lines, so I needed 16 wires. Since the CAT5 cables are each 8 wires, I used two CAT5 cables between the BCS-460 and my brewery. I carried out the temperature input and the 2 output lines used for the fermenter as well, they just aren't connected within the brewery control but are there in case of future expansion.

If you are planning on putting all of the wiring within the walls and are going to use a BCS-460 you will probably want 3 CAT5 cables near the fermentation control and BCS. One to go to your home network and 2 others to go between the BCS and your brewery control. Note that these last two will not be used for ethernet, but for signal wires only. If you use a BCS-462 you will probably need up to 4 CAT5 cables for the signal wires, as there are more inputs and outputs.

My personal choice would be to put 4 or 5 runs of CAT5 cable through the walls between the location of the fermenter control and the location of the brewery control. The cable is cheap, and as long as you don't put connectors on the ends it doesn't take up much room behind a wall plate. I would also make 2 ethernet cable runs from my network interface to the BCS location, one for immediate use and one for who knows what in the future. A spool of cable is cheap in comparison to the problems of fishing a line through a finished wall if you decide to expand a system later.

I use 3 temperature inputs from the brewery and 1 from the fermenter. Wish that I had more, so a BCS-462 would have been a better choice for me but was out of my price range when I bought.

Hope this helps and answers your questions.

Chuck
 
Crap, I typed a long thing and lost it all! I still need guidance so I'll to keep it as concise as possible.

Anyways, I think I'm going to go with your dual control panel concept :

1) The primary (I'll refer to it from here on as the "master") panel is located by my ferm chamber and controls it directly using the BCS-462 unit inside the panel based on inputs/temp probes (limit of 5 due to 3 needed for brewery?) that connect directly to it. Since 5 inputs are possible, it would also seems to me that I can use 5 outputs to separately monitor and control the temps of 5 vessels. All this happens within this master panel, but the reason I'm going to need to run cables within the walls is because the master panel. also controls the eHERMS brewery across the room indirectly, via...

2) The secondary ("slave") panel, which will be located next to the actual brewery itself. It will provide power to two outputs (elements) based on three inputs (1 temperature probe in each vessel), but since it's the BCS that processes all of this, all the brewery inputs will need to be run from the slave back to the master panel, and all resultant output signals must then run back again from the master to the slave.

Assuming all that is correct, a few pumps (3 in my system) are going to be necessary outputs as well, which means 3 more signal wires need to be run from the master panel to the slave. Is this all correct so far?

If it is, I also remembered that I would like to use motorized ball valves. I wanted the plumbing to be completely self-contained from supply to drain without requiring any moving around of hoses, which ends up requiring 19 valves. So to have maximum control and be able to devise unlimited configurations of opened/closed valves, NINETEEN more output signal wires needed to be run from master to slave.

So as far as I can tell, I have:

8 inputs
- 5 master panel/ferm chamber; all temp probes
- 3 slave panel/brewery; all temp probes
---> only 3 wires need to be run through the wall, in order for the BCS in the master panel to read brewery temps from the slave. The other 5 will already be local @ the ferm chamber.

29 outputs
- 5 master panel/ferm chamber; all temp control
- 24 slave panel/brewery; 2 electric elements, 3 pumps, 19 valves
---> 24 wires need to be run through the wall, in order for the BCS in the master panel to control the above mentioned brewery outputs.

3 + 24 = 27 wires needed to be run through the wall between the master and slave. This can be taken care of by 4 cat6 cables, correct? Or do each of these runs require A PAIR of wires, meaning 54 wires - or 7 cat6 cables - are needed? In other words, will these connections between the panels require 4 or 7 cables?

And then am I right to assume I'll really only NEED one more cat6 cable run through the wall, to connect the main panel/BCS to my home network via the switch I have in the adjacent room (bringing the total to either 5 or 8 ethernet cables going from the master panel to a nearby wallplate, depending on the answer to the previous question)?

So, lastly... am I getting anything wrong? Are there inputs or outputs I need or really ought to have but that I haven't taken into account? Am I missing anything else? And based on what I've described, does anyone have any specific recommendations or suggestions they'd like to make? I know I said I'd try to keep it concise, but I just couldn't. My apologies for giving you guys a book to read, but I am really appreciative of those of you who did so anyways. Thanks a ton!
 
1) Don't forget that it takes 1 input per temperature reading and 1 output each for heating and cooling. You might need to heat the fermenter if it's in an unheated area.

2) You are right in thinking that you need one output per ball valve , one per pump and one per heating element. You need one input per temperature probe and one input per mechanical switch on the slave control. You also need 1 wire each for DC ground and +5 volt.

I found no problems using 1 wire for each function and ignoring the fact that they are part of a twisted pair. Therefore, if you need 27 wires (plus 2 for 5v & gnd), you can run 4 CAT6 cables - 32 individual wires - to the slave panel. You can use one common DC ground for the temperature inputs and signal output lines. You can also use one common +5 volt supply for each of the mechanical switch inputs as well.

I recommend that you run all BCS-462 signal lines to your slave panel, even those that you have dedicated to use in the master panel. It does not hurt to have some signal lines unterminated within the slave panel, but that leaves them there for use in the future.

Hope this answers some of your questions.
 
ChuckO,

Curious. You may have addressed this, but do you use a switching box between your main panel and slave panel, or just unplug the cat5?
 
I recommend that you run all BCS-462 signal lines to your slave panel, even those that you have dedicated to use in the master panel. It does not hurt to have some signal lines unterminated within the slave panel, but that leaves them there for use in the future.

That's a good idea. So it's looking like 40 wires even before taking any mechanical switches into account. So I guess I'll count on an extra cable meaning 6 cat6 cables for 48 signal wires, and a 7th to tie into my network. Might as well run an 8th just to round it off nicely and give myself some wiggle room in case I think of anything else.

8 cables! A lot more than I thought I'd need. When I include my PC and home theater equipment in that room, that's going to wind up being a minimum of 22 cat6 jacks in one room! :eek:
 
ChuckO,

Curious. You may have addressed this, but do you use a switching box between your main panel and slave panel, or just unplug the cat5?

At the most I unplug the cables. When I turn off the master power to the brewery it really doesn't matter. The temperature probes and SSR inputs remain active but so what?
 
Ugh... one more question. Looks like for controlling the valves (and possibly other things) I'm going to need 12VDC. The valve relays should be going in the slave panel (right?), so I'm wondering what's going to be the best way to provide a 12VDC power source to the valves right now, since this could possibly impact the way the room will have to be wired before closing it up.
 
I would put the 12v power supply in the slave panel with the relays. No need to run it from anywhere else.

As in, somehow mounting a wall wart inside the enclosure, or is there a cleaner, "proper" way of doing it? I suppose if I could find some sort of DIN or panel-mounted power source that could take one of the hot lines from the 50A receptacle and convert it to DC/step it down to 12V, that would definitely be the best bet. I've looked for similar stuff before though, with no luck.

Speaking of no luck finding a desired part, how did you connect the twisted pair cables to your panels? Finding jacks for the wall-mounted side is obviously easy enough, but I can't really find panel-mount RJ-45 receptacles. I like to have everything looking neat and professional, but I can't find anything like this. If I could find some sort of unit that was already composed of 8 or even 4 receptacles like you see on network switches and similar equipment (for a smaller footprint than 8 individually mounted jacks), that would be perfect. For the same footprint-sparing reason (not to mention ghetto-fying something I'm going to considerable lengths and expense to look "professional"), I'd REALLY rather not resort to simply using wallplates on my control panels.
 
If you are using a DIN rail for other things in your panel you can use a 120v AC outlet on a DIN mount and simply plug in the wall wart. In the small panel that holds my BCS-460 I used a 2 wire extension cord end wired to the back of a constant on outlet on the cover. I zip tied the wall wart to the back wall.

I used a keystone jack plate on the side of my enclosures to mount the RJ-45 receptacles. That was much easier than trying to find panel mounts and cut holes for them.
 
If you are using a DIN rail for other things in your panel you can use a 120v AC outlet on a DIN mount and simply plug in the wall wart. In the small panel that holds my BCS-460 I used a 2 wire extension cord end wired to the back of a constant on outlet on the cover. I zip tied the wall wart to the back wall.

I used a keystone jack plate on the side of my enclosures to mount the RJ-45 receptacles. That was much easier than trying to find panel mounts and cut holes for them.

Could you possibly provide some pictures of your panels? It would help me greatly, probably reduce the number of questions I keep throwing out there, and at least let me see whether things really do look "unprofessional" enough for me to spend extra time and money (but especially time) by insisting on going with something I'm imagining would be more "acceptable".
 
At the most I unplug the cables. When I turn off the master power to the brewery it really doesn't matter. The temperature probes and SSR inputs remain active but so what?

I don't have enough temp inputs to both brew and run fermenters. So, I have to unplug the cat5 to the fermenters when I brew. I once made the mistake of not unplugging, and couldn't figure out why my temps seemed off during brewing. Things get whacky when you have two 10Kohm resisters in parallel. . . Just wondering if there was a convenient switch out there. . .
 
Since only one wire is carrying the ground, is it going to cause problems if it's unplugged while other cables are still plugged in? It almost seems like I should have a ground wire in every cable...

I don't have enough temp inputs to both brew and run fermenters. So, I have to unplug the cat5 to the fermenters when I brew. I once made the mistake of not unplugging, and couldn't figure out why my temps seemed off during brewing. Things get whacky when you have two 10Kohm resisters in parallel. . . Just wondering if there was a convenient switch out there. . .

That seems exceedingly simple to do. Just use a NC-NC switch, with enough poles or additional relays.
 
Could you possibly provide some pictures of your panels? It would help me greatly, probably reduce the number of questions I keep throwing out there, and at least let me see whether things really do look "unprofessional" enough for me to spend extra time and money (but especially time) by insisting on going with something I'm imagining would be more "acceptable".

emjay,

I'll get some pictures taken and post them. I've been lax about documenting my work so far. Hopefully before the weekend.

I don't have enough temp inputs to both brew and run fermenters. So, I have to unplug the cat5 to the fermenters when I brew. I once made the mistake of not unplugging, and couldn't figure out why my temps seemed off during brewing. Things get whacky when you have two 10Kohm resisters in parallel. . . Just wondering if there was a convenient switch out there. . .

I was thinking about running a second dc ground in the brewery panel for those features that could also be used in the primary fermenter control as well. Then a simple spdt switch could switch between the ground line for either the brewery or fermenter for those common elements. Think I'll lay it out and see what happens.
 
How 'bout just using two BCS-462s; one for brewing, the other for fermenting, lagering and serving? Oh, don't tell me we're watching our pennies as we move towards total automation... ;)
 
If I had it to do over...I would get a BCS for fermenting and serving. I'd still pick the Brewtroller for my brewing. You don't measure in pennies with total automation...:)
 
Could you possibly provide some pictures of your panels? It would help me greatly, probably reduce the number of questions I keep throwing out there, and at least let me see whether things really do look "unprofessional" enough for me to spend extra time and money (but especially time) by insisting on going with something I'm imagining would be more "acceptable".

Finally got some photos uploaded. The low voltage wiring has not been routed cleanly yet and has no color codes applied.

Backplane
interior-60415.jpg


Door
door-outside-60414.jpg

e-stop, power on, power off

Left Side
left-side-60416.jpg


Right Side
right-side-60417.jpg


Been running for over a year now but I have some changes in mind. It will never be finished.
 
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