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captain_brew

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Hello Everyone.

My partner and I are opening up a Brewpub in a small city.
We currently have:
3) 55g Blichmann Kettles.

We've been debating the merits of going Electric and have (for the most part) decided using electricity is more efficient.

Not too long ago I built a 2.5g E-BIAB setup using one of P-J's wiring diagrams, I'm very comfortable following a schematic, just not coming up with one.

We have a 200A panel 3-phase power.

Looking to make an E-HERMS System. With the capabilities of heating both the HLT and BK simultaneously.

We are also looking at potentially growing into Blichmann's 1bbl kettle "extensions" which is basically a bottomless kettle that snaps onto the existing 55g kettles to give a gross capacity of 100g.

I've looked at Theelectricbrewery.com and sent Kal an email/scoured forum for answers to my issue. Unfortunately, he was unable to provide me with a solution.

I've also contacted brewmation.com and their panel seemed a little on the pricey side @ ~$5,000, where as Kals is at $2,200.

So if you could help a brewing brother out I'd greatly appreciate any suggestions/diagrams!

Requirements:
Must run off of a 200A panel.
12-18KW power in HLT and BK
3 PID for HLT, MLT, and BK


Thoughts? Suggestions?
 
Building a commercial system will be scrutanized by the "powers that be" such as building inspectors, fire chief/safety inspector and insurance companies. Brewmation's commercial panels are UL listed which is a good thing, and don't seem too pricey IMHO. You seem like you may be underfunded. If you build something yourself, you have to make sure your local inspector will approve the panel and system before you build it or you could just be throwing cash down the drain.
Call them up and go speak to them and use them as a resource in your purchasing decisions. You could check out a company like Watlow who build commercial heating systems, but I would presume it would cost even more then a brewmation sytem.
 
Read my thread.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/55-gallon-ae-kettle-system-267986/

I made a commercial 1.5 BBL system from scratch. I built my own controls, no problem with 'code' in my area.
How the above poster thinks you are 'underfunded' without looking at your financials I have no idea. But as I state in my tread, figure what you think it will cost. Then multiply that by 2 and you are still probably underestimating the actual cost.
I have successfully done the un-doable by building my own Nano from scratch. We can't make beer fast enough. People lining up to buy it. If you are determined you can achieve! We should be turning a profit by our second year....key word should. But if know anything about business, and I hope you do, this is faster then would be expected.

www.DrunkMonkeyBrewWerks.com


We have just installed a 3 BBL Brew House. Only used the 1.5 BBL for 8 months. Someone ask if I wish I would have started with a larger system. My response is "larger system....larger mistakes" So learning commercial brewing on a small scale (Nano) system is like going to the school of hard knocks but only paying 1/2 price for your education. Most the parts in the system get re purposed into the next step system anyway!

Don't listen to nay-Sayers! If I did all my life I would be working for the-man. I just did-it! And now I live the good life.
Again; read my thread it will take you on a journey of setting up a small brewery. Also, start reading probrewer.com 's forums.
 
Thanks for the input everyone.

I was hoping to gain some knowledge from some of the EE's on this forum. Probrewer has been thoroughly scoured.

Funding is not an issue, but it IS important that we spend our money wisely. We've built out (and started purchasing equipment) a detailed equipment/remodel plan, darn near to the gaskets required. We have $7,500 put aside for our Electric system, but why spend $7,500 on something when you can get it for $2,000?

The brewmation controller for $4,900 is NOT UL Certified.

Like I stated in the first post, I can follow a schematic, I just don't know the requirements for the control panel. 24KW (4 x 6KW elements spread across 2 kettles) is going to draw 100A at 240V. 6KW / 240 = 25A. Each element is drawing 25A. So do I use a 30A contactor and SSR for each element or should I go up to a 50A? 30A makes sense to me. but if I was an expert I wouldn't be posting a question like this. I'd have drawn out a schematic and asked if it made sense to you guys!

Thanks for the input. HBT's forum is much more active than probrewer.
 
Oversizing the SSRs to 40a or 50a will lower the heat produced and likely extend the life of the SSRs, so that's a good idea. If you are using the contactors with a safety to ensure that the elements are off, then 30a should be fine.
 
I would look into Stout Kettles. They have 1, 2, and 3 barrel breweries. I use one of their 40 gallon conicals for 1 barrel batches. Their HLT and BK are set up for electrical elements. For 1 barrel, two 5500 watt elements will be plenty in the HLT and BK. For 2 barrels, I would want three 5500 watt elements in HLT and BK. I agree with 40 amp SSRs. 30 amp contactor for each element for shut off will be fine.
 
Captain_Brew;
I agree whole hearted! Read - learn - build. Not only will you save up front. You can trouble shoot later. I bought a pre-built control system and when I had issues with it working we were up $hit-creek. Built my own, now if I want to change anything I know what is going on inside. And I saved 1000.'s
 
Also;
KISS
Keep It Simple Stupid. There are a lot of bells-n-buzzers on these diagrams of homebrew setups that just ARE NOT needed. If you make the simplest panel you will be happy. If you are brewing and you feel it is lacking something, then add it. In the true production based industrial world, simple is better.
 
Thanks everyone for keeping the conversation going. We have our kettle already, as well as our Fermenting Vessels.

Just looking for a diagram for our panel! We were originally going to use gas, but now want to take it electric.

Thanks!
 
I agree with wadefisher. Keep it as simple as possible without compromising safety. I modified my control panel multiple times over several years. I increased complexity only to make it safer.
Original build:
cpinside.jpg

Current version:
brewing%2520009.jpg
 
Off topic a bit, but what are you using for fermenters?

40g blue poly drums with a food grade liner. Lids are fitted with a thermowell, which is attached to our 2 stage thermostat.

Ferment beer, transfer with diaphragm pump, lift liner out, cut corner off, rinse yeast, throw liner away.

Local brewpub is using this method, without any issues. Esters/Fusels are kept in check. Fermenting at 66-68F.
 
I apologise if I came off as being a naysayer, as that was not my intention. The point I was trying to make in my post is that if you are going to build something yourself, it does not hurt for your plans to be examined by your local inspector before you build it. Some people view inspectors with disdain, when really they can be a good resource if they are involved early in the process before you spend your money. When I looked at brewmations site, it said that their commercial panels are UL listed. I assumed that was what you were looking at for your 55 gallon system at that price. My mistake.
 
40g blue poly drums with a food grade liner. Lids are fitted with a thermowell, which is attached to our 2 stage thermostat.

Ferment beer, transfer with diaphragm pump, lift liner out, cut corner off, rinse yeast, throw liner away.

Local brewpub is using this method, without any issues. Esters/Fusels are kept in check. Fermenting at 66-68F.

What do liners set you back? Can you recycle them? Seems like a lot of plastic into the landfill.
 
Hello Everyone.

My partner and I are opening up a Brewpub in a small city.
We currently have:
3) 55g Blichmann Kettles.

We've been debating the merits of going Electric and have (for the most part) decided using electricity is more efficient.

Not too long ago I built a 2.5g E-BIAB setup using one of P-J's wiring diagrams, I'm very comfortable following a schematic, just not coming up with one.

We have a 200A panel 3-phase power.

Looking to make an E-HERMS System. With the capabilities of heating both the HLT and BK simultaneously.

We are also looking at potentially growing into Blichmann's 1bbl kettle "extensions" which is basically a bottomless kettle that snaps onto the existing 55g kettles to give a gross capacity of 100g.

I've looked at Theelectricbrewery.com and sent Kal an email/scoured forum for answers to my issue. Unfortunately, he was unable to provide me with a solution.

I've also contacted brewmation.com and their panel seemed a little on the pricey side @ ~$5,000, where as Kals is at $2,200.

So if you could help a brewing brother out I'd greatly appreciate any suggestions/diagrams!

Requirements:
Must run off of a 200A panel.
12-18KW power in HLT and BK
3 PID for HLT, MLT, and BK


Thoughts? Suggestions?
captain_brew,

I thought I would chime in with something that might help you in your adventure. Also, the diagram can be made as 2 or 3 seperate controllers so that each could be placed close to & for its specific tank. This would make it easier to manage the wiring and placement of the controllers. The element configurations are set up in 'Delta' configurations.

As always, click on the image to see (and save) a full scale drawing that is printable on large paper sheets. (News Print - 16.5” X 22.75”)



I hope this is of some help to you.

P-J

Edit: I replaced the diagram as I have added control switches for the HLT and BOIL. I've also eliminated the 3rd pump outlet. (2/22/13)
 
I just completed a diagram similar to the one above that has 6000W elements placed for a total 18,000W in each kettle. It also required a swap out of the SSRs to higher rated units.

If interested.
 
Ahhh!!! I've summoned the rare P-J!! Welcome to my thread! Thanks so much for your time and effort putting this together.

We're only going to use 2 pumps, so I can omit that switch/plug easy enough. When you flip the switch for the PID controller's though, They're all going to turn on. What prevents a dry-fire?

I'm assuming the PID Power you have now is sort of a "master" power to the panel.
Can I lay 2 other switches in there, to turn on each Kettle by itself? I don't necessarily want the HLT heating while the BK is going and vice versa.


Also just to clarify. With this configuration, I can run BOTH kettles simultaneously? (I know this sounds opposite of what I stated in the paragraph before, It's just a measure of control)
 
Ahhh!!! I've summoned the rare P-J!! Welcome to my thread! Thanks so much for your time and effort putting this together.

We're only going to use 2 pumps, so I can omit that switch/plug easy enough. When you flip the switch for the PID controller's though, They're all going to turn on. What prevents a dry-fire?

I'm assuming the PID Power you have now is sort of a "master" power to the panel.
Can I lay 2 other switches in there, to turn on each Kettle by itself? I don't necessarily want the HLT heating while the BK is going and vice versa.


Also just to clarify. With this configuration, I can run BOTH kettles simultaneously? (I know this sounds opposite of what I stated in the paragraph before, It's just a measure of control)
I finished the 6000w element version (total 0f 18,000w per kettle) and included the seperate control switches (SW 4 & 5) that you wanted for the HLT & BOIL. These 2 switches can prevent the elements from being turned on but allow the PIDs to be set up and adjusted as needed.

I also eliminated the 3rd pump set up.

As always, click on the image to see (and save) a full scale drawing that is printable on large paper sheets. (News Print - 16.5” X 22.75”)



Hope this helps.

Note: The power calc for -

3 Phase Delta:

Each leg will see 1.73 of the equivalent single phase load of each element.
So, with 240v and 6000w elements the math is thus...
A single 6000w element on 240V draws 25A
With the 3 phase setup and 3 - 6000w elements wired in Delta - each phase will draw:
6000/240*1.73 = 43.25 amps per phase at 240v.
 
Hope this helps.

Note: The power calc for -

3 Phase Delta:

Each leg will see 1.73 of the equivalent single phase load of each element.
So, with 240v and 6000w elements the math is thus...
A single 6000w element on 240V draws 25A
With the 3 phase setup and 3 - 6000w elements wired in Delta - each phase will draw:
6000/240*1.73 = 43.25 amps per phase at 240v.

P-J: Words can not express how amazing you are for this community. You're always there helping us out. For that I am forever in your debt. You've made my life way easier, and potentially cheaper as well. If there's EVER anything I can do for you, please ask. What's your favorite style of beer? I see a
P-J _____ in the future to forever enshrine your amazingness.

Thank you so much for your time and dedication to HBT.
 
P-J: Words can not express how amazing you are for this community. You're always there helping us out. For that I am forever in your debt. You've made my life way easier, and potentially cheaper as well. If there's EVER anything I can do for you, please ask. What's your favorite style of beer? I see a
P-J _____ in the future to forever enshrine your amazingness.

Thank you so much for your time and dedication to HBT.
You are welcome.

When you get into the build stages please let me know if you would like independent controllers for each station. It might help to minimize electrical wiring for your brewery. Each station could (would) be placed for that particular location.

Just trying to help you with a few "mind jumps".

Wishing you the best and GREAT success.!

P-J
 
What are you going to do for GFCI?
Problem I had with 3 phase Wye was getting affordable Ground Fault.
You can get a 3 phase 100A 240V GFCI 'Y' or 'Delta' from http://www.bender.org/tools/gfci/index.aspx

Please note the following part number for your request:
LG100-240-3/4-6-12-PA-CH
Entered specifications (If incorrect, please change below):

Load Amperage Rating: 100 Amps
System Voltage: 240 Volts
Phase Type: Three-phase: L1, L2, L3, N
Trip Level: 6 mA trip level, AC/DC faults, inverse time curve
Enclosure: NEMA 12 painted steel enclosure

No idea of the cost but they can be secured.
 
Have you heard of DIN rails? I would highly recommend doing all of this mounted on din rails. You might pay a few more dollars, but you will save many hours measuring drilling and tapping, and everything is more flexible for the future.
 
You can get a 3 phase 100A 240V GFCI 'Y' or 'Delta' from http://www.bender.org/tools/gfci/index.aspx



No idea of the cost but they can be secured.

Availability was not the issue. PRICE was/is!
I have received quotes and they were not nice. So you may want to see what they will charge for your system to be GFCI. I am saving the link, it looks like they would be worth investigating.
I know there should be a reasonable solution out there.:confused:
 
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