First lager: pitching rate seems insane?!

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slakwhere

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so i found Denny's Evil Czech Pilsner recipe and am going to try a pils on xmas eve... went to the LHBS and grabbed the grain for a 6 gal batch and a wyeast smack pack, i planned on making a starter like i always do for ales.

so i get back to the house and hit the mr malty pitching calculator, and it says 26 packs without a starter and 9 with?!?!?! is this seriously right? how can anyone afford to make lagers?! :(
 
Just step up your starter. And this is where a stir plate really comes in handy!!!
 
My first lager I way under pitched and it was probably one of the best lagers I have ever tried. My last 2 I made the proper size starter and they too were great. I definitely think that proper pitching rates will help the beer ferment how it should and won't stress the yeast. Less chances of off flavors and should help it finish where it should.
 
JZ's book Yeast says on page 144-145 that if i run a 2L starter it will double my lager yeast to 200 billion, but if i then chill/decant and add more wort it will not double again because of the inoculation rate, and i'll only get another 100 billion, topping me out at 300 billion cells.

guess i should go get another packet and double pitch my starter... that should get me to about where i need to be.
 
I have never put faith in those calculators for homebrewing purposes. With such low volumes of beer it is impossible to pitch "the correct" amount of yeast.

Make a starter from a vial or smack pack the day before, aerate well, and pitch it.... If the vial or smack pack is older, make the starter a couple days ahead of time.

It will be great.

You will see that yeast is an adaptable little critter and will do well fermenting your beer--that will be tasty.
 
See all the the threads titled "72 hours, no activity, help!" and the like? More than likely, they were underpitched lagers. The two best things you can do for your lagers, assuming temperature control, is pitch the right amount of yeast and oxygenate.

And then wait.
 
With such low volumes of beer it is impossible to pitch "the correct" amount of yeast.
I'd love to see you tell the guys around here with hemocytomers that its impossible to pitch the right amount of yeast. And while that may be unreasonable for most homebrewers, its most certainly possible to get closer to the correct amount than, "Just make some sort of starter and pitch that!"
 
running back to the LHBS to get another pack and a stir bar (can't find mine after the move!)... then time to fire up a starter for saturday :)
 
Check the Production Date field on MrMalty. If you've ever made a modification and hit the Save Settings button, one of those settings is the date, and you will need to modify the Production Date every time after that. I suspect that the calculator thinks your yeast is 99% dead.
 
I'd love to see you tell the guys around here with hemocytomers that its impossible to pitch the right amount of yeast. And while that may be unreasonable for most homebrewers, its most certainly possible to get closer to the correct amount than, "Just make some sort of starter and pitch that!"

Look. Geek out all you want. Spend your time counting yeast cells. Boring, stupid, waste of time and money. I have done enough of it (they had to pay me to do so). It is totally unnecessary and will not make better homebrew beer--> except in your mind. The homebrew shop will appreciate you buying the extra yeast and/or equipment. The "experts" will appreciate you buying their books telling you to do so.

There is no "correct amount." Just like there is no correct brewing method.

Telling someone newer to brewing that they have to use "Mr. Malty" or their beer will turn out bad is asinine.

Pitch an active starter, begun from a vile or smack pack, and you will make good beer.
 
See all the the threads titled "72 hours, no activity, help!" and the like? More than likely, they were underpitched lagers. The two best things you can do for your lagers, assuming temperature control, is pitch the right amount of yeast and oxygenate.

And then wait.

Pitch active starter (at desired fermentation temperature!). Aerate well.

Most problems, I bet arise from pitching yeast and then cooling the wort quickly to lager temps. Shocking the yeast. less to do with under pitching.

Since most homebrew is "underpitched," anyway, just aerate and rouse yeast again. It will adapt and ferment out.
 
Look. Geek out all you want. Spend your time counting yeast cells. Boring, stupid, waste of time and money. I have done enough of it (they had to pay me to do so). It is totally unnecessary and will not make better homebrew beer--> except in your mind. The homebrew shop will appreciate you buying the extra yeast and/or equipment. The "experts" will appreciate you buying their books telling you to do so.

There is no "correct amount." Just like there is no correct brewing method.

Telling someone newer to brewing that they have to use "Mr. Malty" or their beer will turn out bad is asinine.

Pitch an active starter, begun from a vile or smack pack, and you will make good beer.

In just under the wire to be considered for worst post of 2011. What a maroon.

Meanwhile, back here on planet Reality, a good way for new lager brewers, or those who don't have the ability to make huge starters, to get enough yeast pitched with ease is by using dry lager yeast. There are a couple of really good strains that work well under different temperature ranges. Plus you can go back-to-back-to-back for quite awhile with slurry.
 
You'll get much better results from your starter if you use 200ml of your starter slurry in a new batch of wort to step up a starter than just cold crashing, decanting and pouring fresh wort. Yeast reproduction is influenced by a perceived amount of resources vs population. By starting with a small population, they will reproduce more because of the perceived amount of wort they have to consume.

And yes, it's completely doable to hit your pitching rate, it's not even that difficult.
 
In just under the wire to be considered for worst post of 2011. What a maroon.

Meanwhile, back here on planet Reality, a good way for new lager brewers, or those who don't have the ability to make huge starters, to get enough yeast pitched with ease is by using dry lager yeast. There are a couple of really good strains that work well under different temperature ranges. Plus you can go back-to-back-to-back for quite awhile with slurry.

Hey captain know it all.... I know you and your blogging consensus have it all figured out and all... However...

I know enough about yeast to know (and have been instructed by people with PHD's on the subject) that even the smartest people on the subject (yeast and fermentation) admit we only have reached the tip of iceberg when it comes to knowledge on yeast and fermentation. There are unlimited factors.... Pitch rate is only one.

What is thought now--will be different in the future. Brewer's are not yeast farmers or biologists--we make beer. Stressing yeast can even be desirable. When it comes to homebrewing, the vials and smack packs, pitched active, after a starter, is sufficient for most any beer. Including a simple pilsner.

The best tools you have are your taste buds and observations.

For example: Two weeks ago I brewed, by coincidence, I brewed 12 gallons of pilsner--one of several batches this year. I bought a smack pack, made a starter the night before, and pitched it the next evening. During the afternoon I slowly cooled it to ferment temperature before pitching.

The beer just finished out--spot on final gravity. Tastes absolutely great. They all have come out great this year. And they all begin fermentation within 24 hours.

In your world--the "mr. malty world"--the "correct" amount of yeast I should pitch is 8.4 vials (if the yeast was manufactured on the brew date!!!) with out a starter or three with a starter (of 12 litres!!!).

Mr_Malty_yeast.jpg


This again, from practical experience and observation, is completely not necessary. If makes you feel better, spend the time and money on "correct" pitch rates.

Personally, I just pitch an amount that is adequate and save the time and money. All the mythical off flavors and horrendous results from not staying true to "Mr. Malty's" commandments set in stone--have never manifested.

Anecdotaly, I am sure there are plenty of homebrewers, on this forum no doubt, who routinely don't pitch the "correct" amount of yeast--and have great results as well.

That is certainly not bad advice.... it is just practical advice.

ps. the dry lager yeast is good advice. simplicity. although none are my favorite for taste.
 
From what I have researched, pitch rates without off flavors totally depend on the strain of yeast used, so just saying "make a starter and pitch" might work for some strains, but not all. Since one is looking for more of a clean, crisp character from lager yeast, instead of a fruity, estery, ale like flavor, it would be of more benefit to actually OVER PITCH a lager, then under pitch. So, basically, if you are new to lager brewing and are not sure how the yeast strain will react do to pitch rate, I would recommend pitching a size equal to the Mr. Malty calculator or higher in order to get the flavor profile you are after. And, yes. It will seem crazy big for a starter, but you will be rewarded in the end.
 
Look. Geek out all you want. Spend your time counting yeast cells. Boring, stupid, waste of time and money. I have done enough of it (they had to pay me to do so). It is totally unnecessary and will not make better homebrew beer--> except in your mind. The homebrew shop will appreciate you buying the extra yeast and/or equipment. The "experts" will appreciate you buying their books telling you to do so.

There is no "correct amount." Just like there is no correct brewing method.

Telling someone newer to brewing that they have to use "Mr. Malty" or their beer will turn out bad is asinine.

Pitch an active starter, begun from a vile or smack pack, and you will make good beer.


you're advocating poor brewing practices. that's not why we come to this board.
 
Well I don't want to go through an argument on here about under and over.
On a small homebrew scale the difference maybe small , I'm not saying do it.

If you have the money to spend anything over 20 dollars in yeast for one 6 gal batch than do it, if you don't than look for an alternative. You buying like 8 smack packs is too much. Step up a starter of 2 .

Personally s-23 dry yeast is great, one dry pack for $ 3.00 and that will do a 6 gal batch. It's tried it's tested it's true no one can argue that.

The beer also tastes great. Your choice.
 
Drew,

most of us are not just interested in brewing beer, but we try to make the best beer possible. To do so, we stand on the shoulder of the often anonymous giants who have developed brewing procedures, ingredients and tools over many millennia through trial, error, and lots of experience. While the standard pitching volumes are simplifications, they do have an empirical basis, and new brewers are well-advised to follow those guidelines as a baseline until they have the experience to make adjustments to dial in their system instead of just stabbing in the dark.

In my opinion, the most important aspects of brewing are sanitation, yeast health (and count) and temperature control.
 
Check out this link on a pitching rate experiment, specifically about stepping up starters.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-overpitch-underpitch-experiment-microbiologist-284819/
Now, to be clear, I think Mr. Drew is being a bit too aggressive in his anti-pitching-rate screed (ironically making him a very dogmatically anti-dogma), but I'd like to contribute my skepticism, here.

That link, above, regarding the under-, over-, and properly-pitched yeast counts struck me as funny, in an ironic way:

"i picked out the overpitch brew but mixed up the under and the control. overpitch was very thin, under was bubblegummy and the control was more fruity. i was just glad to get one haha."
All that work and experimentation, and the average joe (maybe not even so average, since MrManifesto seems pretty damn smart, to me) felt he was lucky to be able to properly identify even one of the beers.

My point is that, while many of us automatically accept what we've heard here as The Truth, maybe there's something to what Drew is saying. Maybe it's more in the spirit of Big Daddy Papazian? Pitch some yeast, sit back, and chill out.

Will you be able to graduate to Master Brewer levels, this way? Maybe not. But if what you want is beer, then you'll probably get it.

I think Drew's point is a necessary counter-weight to the knee-jerk "Mr. Malty says" response. I would have said it a little differently, but I think it's still worth saying: Not many of us can afford to pitch 9 packets of yeast, and not all of us want to wait for three days while we step up a starter -- that's okay, you can still brew good beer without it."

But do I want to be the one complaining about stuck fermentations? Nope, so I'm definitely pitching a starter. But if Mr. Malty suggests I need 2 liters of yeast slurry, I'm going to quietly close the browser and ignore it.
 
Hey captain know it all.... I know you and your blogging consensus have it all figured out and all... However...

I know enough about yeast to know (and have been instructed by people with PHD's on the subject) that even the smartest people on the subject (yeast and fermentation) admit we only have reached the tip of iceberg when it comes to knowledge on yeast and fermentation. There are unlimited factors.... Pitch rate is only one.

What is thought now--will be different in the future. Brewer's are not yeast farmers or biologists--we make beer. Stressing yeast can even be desirable. When it comes to homebrewing, the vials and smack packs, pitched active, after a starter, is sufficient for most any beer. Including a simple pilsner.

The best tools you have are your taste buds and observations.

For example: Two weeks ago I brewed, by coincidence, I brewed 12 gallons of pilsner--one of several batches this year. I bought a smack pack, made a starter the night before, and pitched it the next evening. During the afternoon I slowly cooled it to ferment temperature before pitching.

The beer just finished out--spot on final gravity. Tastes absolutely great. They all have come out great this year. And they all begin fermentation within 24 hours.

In your world--the "mr. malty world"--the "correct" amount of yeast I should pitch is 8.4 vials (if the yeast was manufactured on the brew date!!!) with out a starter or three with a starter (of 12 litres!!!).

Mr_Malty_yeast.jpg


This again, from practical experience and observation, is completely not necessary. If makes you feel better, spend the time and money on "correct" pitch rates.

Personally, I just pitch an amount that is adequate and save the time and money. All the mythical off flavors and horrendous results from not staying true to "Mr. Malty's" commandments set in stone--have never manifested.

Anecdotaly, I am sure there are plenty of homebrewers, on this forum no doubt, who routinely don't pitch the "correct" amount of yeast--and have great results as well.

That is certainly not bad advice.... it is just practical advice.

ps. the dry lager yeast is good advice. simplicity. although none are my favorite for taste.

You make great beer underpitching, good for you. I'm sure you have a big pile of NHC medals that prove every brewer who pitches at the recommended rate is wrong and you are right. It's probably why your book on fermentation is such a big seller. Problem is some newbie reads your ridiculous drivel, pitches a single smack pack into a 1.055 extract pilsner at 46 degrees and gets stuck. "But...some anonymous attention-seeking contrarian ****** on HBT told me I only needed to pitch 100,000 cells/ml/degree Plato! Why did I get an Orville Redenbacher special with a 1.025 FG?"
 
Since I no chill, I would dump your yeast pack into your fermenter pail with 1 gallon of cooled wort once you are done brewing. The next day add another gallon, within 24 hours you will be able to add the rest of the wort and it will ferment at high krausen at all times.
I don't even bother with the traditional stir plate and flask method anymore.
 
There is never a need to pitch more the 20 million cells per ml, but if you use the simple formula form Fix that Mr. Malty uses it's easy to exceed that. There are a lot of things that go into finding the correct pitch rate and it varies form strain to strain. Pitching about 400 billion in to 20L is going to allow all the cells to bud once. It is common practice to allow the cell population to grow to 3-5 times the pitched yeast count. The industry standard pitch rates for lager is .8-1.25 million x degree plato per milliliter for lagers. Fix's numbers are higher than everyone else, even Narziss.
 
you're advocating poor brewing practices. that's not why we come to this board.

No. I am advocating practical and cost effective brewing practices. You can purchase 8 vials of yeast at $6-$8 each or make a batch of beer before you make a batch of beer--when making massive starters--but it is not necessary.

You probably buy high test gasoline too... But your car engine will run perfectly fine on the cheap stuff.

I have worked in this industry in the past--including a homebrew shop when I was younger... Anytime I wanted to get an extra $20 or $100 dollars out of customer--I would say, "it will make better beer." It was a total canard and just plainly a sales pitch. I knew perfectly well, some of the best beer ever made, is done so as cheaply as possible.

What I am advocating is nothing more than what most homebrewers do anyway. From years of experience selling products. And guess what--> it works. And it saves time and money.

Factors (such as pitch rates) that are important to commercial operations--simply are not all that important to small homebrew batches. Especially, when you are just tossing the yeast afterwards--which, by far, most homebrewers do.

You can easily get away with pitching smaller active amounts of yeast than "mr malty," apparently the god of homebrew pitch rates, recommends.

This is not poor brewing process, nor does pitching at "mr. malties" rates create better beer.

My advise is practical and cost effective. Don't like it--don't take it.... But for those new to the hobby--> don't listen to the blowhards telling you to spend a fortune on yeast--> in the name of "better beer." Like I said before, that is simply a marketing ploy to get customers to rationalize separating themselves from their money.

More likely with new brewers--> you will infect your beer by not being sanitary stepping up starters 20 times. I have seen it many times working at a homebrew shop.

By the way, what is "better beer" anyway? That justification is thrown around on this forum pretty liberally. Again, usually when someone spends a lot of needless effort or money into a batch of beer. "Better beer" is a completely subjective phrase and has nothing to with "science."

Not saying don't spend all the time and money you want in this hobby-->that makes it fun.... And padded my pockets when I was younger.

But don't make outrageous claims that your beer is "better" because you pitched more yeast than someone else.
 
I've never made a good Lager when underpitching. Mr. Malty may give you rates that are overpitched in certain circumstances, but in general I've found the information gives me a fast and quality ferment.

Best bet for someone starting out is to consider getting or building a stir plate and making more reasonable sized starters. It will pay for itself in short order.

As to your padding your pockets when you were younger, it makes you sound Newtish (if that's a word). :D
 
Here is my "underpitched" pilsner.... One smack pack and pint sized starter the night before pitching.... in a twelve gallon batch..

yup that yeast just could not handle it.... And it tastes so horrible.... I think dump it... hahahahahahahahaha.

This yeast replicated and more than compensated to fully ferment the batch. I saved money and time. I have very good beer. Sorry mr. malty and the blow hards.

P10100533.JPG
 
I'd say the real problem here is the definition of good beer. I've under pitched, over pitched, and correctly pitched. For me the proper pitched beers were usually the winners. I've tasted my share of homebrew, and the ones that were good never came from brewers that said "just toss in some yeast, it doesn't matter how much". Maybe I'm skeptical, but I'm not too sure about taking the word of some guy on a forum that contradicts standard practice by saying that my beer's good. I could ferment a whole batch with the dregs from a single bottle and eventually get a big yeast cake, but it's probably not the best plan. Sorry Drew, not saying you're lying but I can't taste a picture.
 
jcp said:
All that work and experimentation, and the average joe (maybe not even so average, since MrManifesto seems pretty damn smart, to me) felt he was lucky to be able to properly identify even one of the beers.

Thanks for the compliment!

I will mention here that all of those beers were light struck and the teacher told us so, so that may have been a reason I mixed them up. They all tasted somewhat skunky. You could definitely tell something was up with the under and over pitched beers. My taste buds may not have known the difference between them, but there was a very real effect of having too much or too little yeast.
 
Here is my "underpitched" pilsner.... One smack pack and pint sized starter the night before pitching.... in a twelve gallon batch..

yup that yeast just could not handle it.... And it tastes so horrible.... I think dump it... hahahahahahahahaha.

This yeast replicated and more than compensated to fully ferment the batch. I saved money and time. I have very good beer. Sorry mr. malty and the blowhards

Let's see- you're denigrating the scientific findings of Fix and Narziss, making fun of people who are professional brewers and award winning amateurs, who find that pitching the proper amount of yeast into a beer provides great beer.

You're not backing ANY of your claims up with any sort of evidence, scientific or otherwise, besides you once made a big yeast cake and you say that the beer is good. I don't see your NHC medals for your lagers hanging in that picture of the yeast cake.

To top it all off, you've been calling others "blowhards" and "captain know it all".

You may be right, or you may be wrong.

All you've proven so far is you're a dick with a big mouth. Who may or may not make good beer.
 
The proper pitch rate is the one that makes the beer you want. It take's experience with the same wort and the same strain. It's a big part of formulating a recipe and repeating it.
 
I'm also not sure how making a starter requires so much more money. A bag of dme is like $3 and I can make a few starters from it. My stir plate was $35. That's not crazy money. I like doing homebrew stuff so the added time is sort of a bonus, I'm not just trying to crank out batches.

If you're serious about wanting to convert people to your line of thinking, perhaps being an arrogant ********* isn't the way to go. Provide some proof. As another poster quoted, the microbiologist whose class I went to seemed to be convinced that pitching rates were important and even mentioned mr malty as being a good resource. He was a pretty damn smart guy and had a lot of proof to back himself up. Where's yours?
 
pohldogg said:
Sorry Drew, not saying you're lying but I can't taste a picture.

in one corner, we have the pitching rate calculator of a multiple ninkasi winner turned pro brewer... And in the other corner we have that picture. tough call for me.
 
No. I am advocating practical and cost effective brewing practices. You can purchase 8 vials of yeast at $6-$8 each or make a batch of beer before you make a batch of beer--when making massive starters--but it is not necessary.

You probably buy high test gasoline too... But your car engine will run perfectly fine on the cheap stuff.

I have worked in this industry in the past--including a homebrew shop when I was younger... Anytime I wanted to get an extra $20 or $100 dollars out of customer--I would say, "it will make better beer." It was a total canard and just plainly a sales pitch. I knew perfectly well, some of the best beer ever made, is done so as cheaply as possible.

What I am advocating is nothing more than what most homebrewers do anyway. From years of experience selling products. And guess what--> it works. And it saves time and money.

Factors (such as pitch rates) that are important to commercial operations--simply are not all that important to small homebrew batches. Especially, when you are just tossing the yeast afterwards--which, by far, most homebrewers do.

You can easily get away with pitching smaller active amounts of yeast than "mr malty," apparently the god of homebrew pitch rates, recommends.

This is not poor brewing process, nor does pitching at "mr. malties" rates create better beer.

My advise is practical and cost effective. Don't like it--don't take it.... But for those new to the hobby--> don't listen to the blowhards telling you to spend a fortune on yeast--> in the name of "better beer." Like I said before, that is simply a marketing ploy to get customers to rationalize separating themselves from their money.

More likely with new brewers--> you will infect your beer by not being sanitary stepping up starters 20 times. I have seen it many times working at a homebrew shop.

By the way, what is "better beer" anyway? That justification is thrown around on this forum pretty liberally. Again, usually when someone spends a lot of needless effort or money into a batch of beer. "Better beer" is a completely subjective phrase and has nothing to with "science."

Not saying don't spend all the time and money you want in this hobby-->that makes it fun.... And padded my pockets when I was younger.

But don't make outrageous claims that your beer is "better" because you pitched more yeast than someone else.

it's all about being fast and cheap for you but not for many other home brewers. and i have a question for you: if you got all of your yeast for free from a local brewery (like i do) would you increase your pitch rates, or are you just dead set against pitching more yeast than you think should be pitched? in other words are you trying to save money or yeast?
 
Don't know why everyone's jumping on DrewBrew, he's just stating his opinion. Oops, am I a dick or a ********* because I didn't trash him? Lighten up people, its just beer.
 
Don't know why everyone's jumping on DrewBrew, he's just stating his opinion. Oops, am I a dick or a ********* because I didn't trash him? Lighten up people, its just beer.

Nah, not trashing him at all for his opinion. This is a forum, and opinions are what make it work.

The first few posts were fine, and appreciated. It was the namecalling and arrogance that irritated people.
 
Look. Geek out all you want. Spend your time counting yeast cells. Boring, stupid, waste of time and money. I have done enough of it (they had to pay me to do so). It is totally unnecessary and will not make better homebrew beer--> except in your mind. The homebrew shop will appreciate you buying the extra yeast and/or equipment. The "experts" will appreciate you buying their books telling you to do so.

There is no "correct amount." Just like there is no correct brewing method.

Telling someone newer to brewing that they have to use "Mr. Malty" or their beer will turn out bad is asinine.

Pitch an active starter, begun from a vile or smack pack, and you will make good beer.

I believe this might be the post that got the ball rolling.
 
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