Sour Blonde mash pH question

I'm going to take a shot at brewing a Sour Blonde. The grain bill I'm using has 13% Acidulated Malt, 12% Flaked Corn and Belgian Pilsner for the rest. Should I add most of the Acidulated Malt at the end of the mash so that the Corn and Pilsner can convert at an appropriate pH at the beginning? If I put it all in at the beginning, I estimate a mash pH of 4.8-4.9.

And what extract potential does Weyermann Acidulated Malt have? They don't list it on their website.

Thanks,
Nate

Sounds like a good plan, maybe 45 without it and another 45 with it? It is hard to say what sort of extract you’ll get because after you add it the pH might be too low for good conversion. Ideally it should be close to pils with good enzyme action, since that is esentially what it is (pils with a lacto coating).

Their Acidulated Malt has a moisture content of 7% compared to 4.5% for a recent sack of their Pilsner. So, I'm going to assume slightly less extract, especially since some of it may not get converted.

How long do you plan to mash for?

I'm going to add 5% acidulated at first, which should get the pH around 5.3 since it's such a light colored beer (3.1 SRM). Let that rest until conversion is complete (30-60mins) and then throw in the other 8.5% Acidulated and see how the gravity and pH reacts over the next 15-30 mins. If conversion is still happening with the whole 13.5% dose of acidulated malt in there, I'll let it keep going. It's going to be an intensive refractometer and pH meter mash, haha.

Here's the recipe if anyone's curious:

Sour Blonde
Date: 9/26/10
Batch Size: 7.00 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 89.60%

Ingredients
8.50 lb Dingemans Pilsner (1.8 SRM) Grain 66.05 %
1.55 lb Briess Flaked Yellow Corn (0.8 SRM) Grain 12.04 %
1.42 lb Weyermann Acidulated Malt (2.3 SRM) Grain 11.03 %
0.75 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.83 %
0.65 lb Briess Carapils (1.5 SRM) Grain 5.05 %
0.85 oz Sterling [6.00 %] (60 min) Hops 16.3 IBU
0.97 oz Sterling [6.00 %] (30 min) Hops 9.5 IBU
0.97 oz Sterling [6.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
1.00 items Servomyces (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Brettanomyces B. (White Labs #WLP650) Yeast-Ale
1 Pkgs Whitbread Ale (Wyeast Labs #1099) Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile
Original Gravity: 1.0575 SG
Est Final Gravity: ?
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: at least 5.4% ABV
Bitterness: 25.8 IBU
Est Color: 3.3 SRM

Mash Profile
Single rest with mash out
60 min Sacc Rest Add 4.02 gal of water at 170.9 F 160.0 F, ad6ed only .6 lbs Acidulated Malt
15 min Sacc Rest after adding remaining .82 lbs Acidulated Malt
15 min Mash out Heat to 170.0 F over 5 min 170.0 F

Notes
9/22 - 2L starter of Wyeast 1099 with a production date of 9/8/10. Starter finished and taken off stir plate after 24 hrs to put a 2 liter starter on for the Brett B with a best by date of 9/30/10. Brett starter took 3 days to finish.

Pitched 1099 @ 65F, set controller for 75F
Crash cool when finished, transfer off 1099 and add Brett.
See what happens.

Brew day went well. I adjusted the recipe down to only 11% acidulated after trying Ithaca's Brute again. Tried to turn down the sour just slightly to appeal to a broader crowd. Put 4.6% acidulated in to start and hit a pH of 5.2. After conversion, added the rest and hit 4.75 pH. After 15mins, the rest of the acidulated had converted. Should have added rice hulls because it took forever to lauter. I'll post back in a year to tell you all how it tastes

If I were you, I would skip the Brett, and trek out to Princeton Homebrew in Trenton. There is a culture of bugs that you can only get there (aside from Al B directly) that should compliment this beer much more than the Brett... I know because I have damn near the same beer with Al's bugs that is 10 months old. Best sour I have ever made in my life.

Is it a mixture of Brett strains or is there pedio and lacto in there too?

All of the above, plus some kombrucha, sherry and sacch strains

Just an update, last night I crash cooled this recipe. FG was 1.021. I didn't let it go higher than 75F during fermentation. Picking up some of Al B's bugfarm batch #4 on Saturday and pitching it after transferring off the Whitbread yeast. Then wait.

Pitched Al B's Bugfarm Batch #4 on Sunday and I have my first pellicle forming
Thanks for the suggestion Ryan.

damn, that looks sweet!

I sampled the Blonde last night. Oh boy is it tasty. Thanks Ryan for suggesting the Bugfarm. It's going to be an awesome summertime beer.

Any thoughts on throwing some oak cubes in for a week before bottling? Kind of along the lines of Temptation? Soak the cubes in some chardonnay?

dstar26t said:

I sampled the Blonde last night. Oh boy is it tasty. Thanks Ryan for suggesting the Bugfarm. It's going to be an awesome summertime beer.

Any thoughts on throwing some oak cubes in for a week before bottling? Kind of along the lines of Temptation?

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I think to get wood complexity rather than "lumber" it takes a lot longer than a week. I've had the best luck added ~1 oz of boiled oak cubes for the entire time the beer is in secondary. If you want to mimick Temptation you might be better off blending in 1-2 cups of decent Chardonnay. Just think if a brewery said that they barrel aged their beer for a week.

Ok, I guess I should throw some cubes in now. Planning on bottling in April or May. Thanks.

dstar26t said:

Ok, I guess I should throw some cubes in now. Planning on bottling in April or May. Thanks.

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Note the "boiled" that Oldsock said; boil for 10-15 minutes and discard the water, to get rid of the more tannic harsh flavors from the oak. There'll still be plenty left there (remember, beer barrels for aging are usually ones that something else has been aged in for a long time, taking those young harsh tannins away before the beer gets to it).

Great, thanks for the help all.

So then when I bottle this, can I save the cubes and expect that they are impregnated with all the bugfarm creatures? Is there an easy effective way to save them?

dstar26t said:

Great, thanks for the help all.

So then when I bottle this, can I save the cubes and expect that they are impregnated with all the bugfarm creatures? Is there an easy effective way to save them?

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You can either put them in a jar in the fridge covered with the beer, or dry them out on a rack and then bag them up.

I assume to get the bugfarm cultures, you just email Al B?

Thanks!

tasq said:

I assume to get the bugfarm cultures, you just email Al B?

Thanks!

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Princeton Homebrew now sells the cultures, although after I did a post about them it sounds like they sold out pretty quickly... http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2011/01/east-coast-yeast-bugs.html

Oldsock said:

Princeton Homebrew now sells the cultures, although after I did a post about them it sounds like they sold out pretty quickly... http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2011/01/east-coast-yeast-bugs.html

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I'm in Denver, so looks like I'm SOL.

tasq said:

I'm in Denver, so looks like I'm SOL.

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The homebrew shop owner will ship them, just send him an email and see what they have in stock or ask him to let you know when he gets a new batch.

Oldsock said:

The homebrew shop owner will ship them, just send him an email and see what they have in stock or ask him to let you know when he gets a new batch.

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Good to know! Thanks for the info, and sorry to hijack the thread.

No problem. It would be nice if the bugfarm was available year round, that's for sure.

8 months in on this one. Still a few tiny bubbles showing so hopefully in another month or 2 it'll be ready to bottle. Tastes like it's ready but don't want to be too hasty.

as discussed in PM, the time is pretty quick on this culture. I think mine was bottled at 7 months, and is one of the best sours I have ever brewed.

Mike, you actually had my beer at the big lambic brewday at Stefin's in october. When you had it, it still was showing a corny off flavor that cleared up after a month or so. It was not diacetyl, but some other strangeness that was not there prior to bottling.

Ryan_PA said:

as discussed in PM, the time is pretty quick on this culture. I think mine was bottled at 7 months, and is one of the best sours I have ever brewed.

Mike, you actually had my beer at the big lambic brewday at Stefin's in october. When you had it, it still was showing a corny off flavor that cleared up after a month or so. It was not diacetyl, but some other strangeness that was not there prior to bottling.

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Glad to hear. My pale sours often get whatever that character is.

Packaged this beer yesterday. I bottled it in 24 cleaned and delabeled Russian River 375's from my stash and used 14 750's for the rest, all corked and caged. Pitched 1 million cells per mL montrachet yeast and corn sugar primed to 3.5 volumes. Can't wait try one in a couple months! Tasting it pre-bottled, it was not as sour as I had hoped and had a slight sulfury aroma when swirled that quickly went away.

dstar26t said:

I bottled it in 24 cleaned and delabeled Russian River 375's from my stash...

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That makes me jealous on several levels.

i keep waiting for their procrastination to show up, but it never does. lol...

jtakacs said:

i keep waiting for their procrastination to show up, but it never does. lol...

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They actually finally made it a couple years ago (after leaving it on the board for years), sadly never bottled: http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/russian-river-procrastination/101493/

I chilled and opened a bottle from this batch, it's been 2 months since bottling. First thing I noticed is chill haze...bottles are clear when warm. Maybe a protein rest is needed next time? Carbonation is a little less than the 3.5 volumes I wanted. I'm guessing the residual CO2 was less due to the extended aging than what beersmith uses for default. Flavor is complex sour/tart but there is a sulfur component that is distracting. As Ryan_PA and Oldsock mentioned earlier, this is apparently common in pale sours and disappears with time. One to maybe 4 more months in the bottle should help clear it up I hope?

Did this ever clear up with time?

The sulfur is gone and if the bottle is chilled for at least a week prior to opening, the chill haze falls. It's really an awesome beer, wish I did a double batch of it.