Pliny Recipe Feedback

I posted this in the All Grain - Pliny the Elder' thread last week, but haven't received any responses so I thought I would post here hoping to get some validation or recommendations for the recipe. The original recipe in the thread is for five gallons so I divided everything in half for a 2.5 gallon batch as this is the largest batch size for which I can do a full boil and cool efficiently.

The all-grain recipe called for 12 lbs of 2-row, and later in the thread it was suggested to replace the 2-row with 7.2 lbs of DME for extract, so my 2.5 gallon extract modified recipe is as follows:

7.2 lbs pale DME12 pounds 2row
4oz Crystal 45 malt
4oz Carapils malt
6oz corn sugar added to boil

1.75oz Columbus hops @ 90 minutes
.375oz Columbus hops @ 45 minutes
.5oz Simcoe hops @ 30 minutes
.5oz Centennial hops @ 0 minutes
1.25oz Simcoe hops @ 0 minutes

.5oz Columbus dryhop
.5oz Simcoe dryhop
.5oz Centennial dryhop

add an additional .125 columbus, .125 simcoe, and .125 oz of cententennial to the dryhop after a week of adding the first dryhop addition

steep grain 30 minutes at 150; add 1/3 DME at beginning of boil; add remaining DME and corn sugar at flameout

us05 yeast

Does the recipe and process sound good? Would anyone do any thing differently?

I've never had Pliny before so I'm hoping this turns out to be the hop bomb that everybody says it is.

Thanks!

I did a Pliny extract 2 weeks ago and your recipe looks similar to mine, but almost half. I think you have twice as much DME listed as you need. Run that through BeerSmith or something. You should be shooting for 1.070.I used a lb of corn sugar in my 5g batch cause I wanted it to dry it out more than straight DME could get me, so 6oz should be good, but you could probably go up to 8oz and adjust your DME to get your target OG. I also used .5lb each C40 and Carapils, so your 4oz of each falls right in line with mine. I don't have my recipe right in front of me, but I was right at 1.070 and ended at 1.012 IIRC.

Your hops look right on. I followed Vinnie's hop schedule except I didn't do a 90 min boil (no need in an extract), so I added the 90 to the wort as the grains steeped. Not in the grain bag, but in the wort, so when I pulled the grain bag, the hops stayed, then brought that to a boil and started the timer at 60. It smells and tastes amazing so far. 2nd Dry hop is going in tonight.

MonkeyWrench said:

I did a Pliny extract 2 weeks ago and your recipe looks similar to mine, but almost half. I think you have twice as much DME listed as you need. Run that through BeerSmith or something. You should be shooting for 1.070.I used a lb of corn sugar in my 5g batch cause I wanted it to dry it out more than straight DME could get me, so 6oz should be good, but you could probably go up to 8oz and adjust your DME to get your target OG. I also used .5lb each C40 and Carapils, so your 4oz of each falls right in line with mine. I don't have my recipe right in front of me, but I was right at 1.070 and ended at 1.012 IIRC.

Your hops look right on. I followed Vinnie's hop schedule except I didn't do a 90 min boil (no need in an extract), so I added the 90 to the wort as the grains steeped. Not in the grain bag, but in the wort, so when I pulled the grain bag, the hops stayed, then brought that to a boil and started the timer at 60. It smells and tastes amazing so far. 2nd Dry hop is going in tonight.

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Oops...forgot to divide the DME. 3.6lbs DME is my plan. I like the idea of bumping the corn sugar up. My free trial of Beersmith ran out today so I guess I'll be going ahead and making that purchase to figure out my amounts.

I also like the idea of adding the hops for the steep.

Did you transfer to secondary for dryhopping? How long did you do the first dryhop? Are you doing the second dryhop in the same container?

Thanks for the input!

I am dry hopping in the primary. I hadn't even checked gravity during the first week, but after 9 days it was done, so I added the 3oz first dry hop. I've been swirling the carboy because that amount of leaf hops just want to float. If you are using pellet, shouldn't be an issue. I'll be adding the second dry hop right to the primary with the first set as well. Then I'll rack next week.

IIRC Pliny recipe calls for a pound of sugar in 5G batch. 6oz is lower than that recipe, and your DME error has already been mentioned.

Not getting into whether 6 or 8 oz of sugar would be "better" but 8oz would be more "accurate" to the original recipe.

(edit: but for the record, I tend to decrease sugar amounts in recipes when possible).

It really depends on your brewhouse efficiency on what quantity of ingredients you use. The recipe that Vinnie gives out only gives you percentages; 87% 2-Row, 4% C-40, 4% CP, and 5% Dextrose.

When I plug these numbers into BeerSmith, I get 11lb 2-Row, .5lb C-40, .5lb CP, and .63 Corn Sugar to get the desired result (1.070 OG) at 75% efficiency. Not sure if I'm using BS wrong or don't quite understand.

I've never experimented, but it's my understanding that adding sugar helps dry out the beer. And, I believe that an extract batch has a given fermentables and since you can't control the mash temp to control fermentables, additional corn sugar might be needed to get the FG down so the sweetness is in line with PTE. Additional sugar may effect the mouth feel (make it thinner), so I believe this may be a trade off....again, correct me if I misunderstand.

To the OP, I also know that the PTE recipe calls for White Labs WLP001. I used Wyeast American Ale 1056 cause that's what was available to me at my LHBS. US-05 should be close, but may not be right on, up to you.

Also, I plugged in your recipe in BS, 3.5lb DME, 6oz CS, and 4oz ea C-40 and CP gives 1.070. If you want to up your corn sugar to 8oz, drop your DME down to 3.4lb.

Looking at my recipe and notes, I actually had an OG of 1.064 and FG of 1.013. The reason I intentionally shot for a lower OG was to make sure my FG was low enough to simulate PTE accurately. I didn't want to replace more DME with even more sugar to get the FG down, so I gave up a little alcohol in favor of a closer FG. PTE is 1.011 and I think you will find that if you start with 1.070, you might only hit 1.017-19 which would be too sweet. Unfortunately, the limitations are because of the extract and yeast. I know people have talked about adding some other types of yeast to lower the FG on some things, like using champagne yeast, but I'd want to really read up on it and maybe experiment on something really cheap to know what the effects are myself.

Also as a side note, I used Briess Pilsen DME. PTE is nice and light colored. Mine ended at 5.4 according to BS, but PTE is "7ish". If your DME is around 4 SRM, you will be around 7.

As far as yeast goes, I picked up us05 and wlp001 with the hopes of using wlp001 with a starter and us05 as a backup plan. I've built a stir plate so I'll probably go with the liquid yeast.

My understanding of carapils is that 1/2 lb will improve body and head retention of a five gallon batch, so I would think 4 oz would improve body for my recipe. Am I mistaken? Will this improvement counteract the thinner mouth feel that the sugar would give, or would they cancel each other out? My first beer was very thin so I would like to avoid that.

I'm not concerned about giving up a little alcohol in favor of a drier beer so I think I'll look at dropping the OG to around 1.065 and see what happens.

I really appreciate the input and BS entry. I'll be pretty excited if this ends up being a good beer with a big hop profile. My first batch was okay, my second was horrid, and my third through fifth batches (all gallons) were just BBS recipes that I did for the hell of it. So far they taste pretty good, but they don't excite me the way a big IPA does. Hopefully this will be the one.

It's argued that carapils isn't needed at all in an extract batch, so yes, it may balance out the additional sugar. Might even be too much. It crossed my mind. But I figured it won't ruin the beer. It will get drank no matter what!

It will end up a beer with a HUGE hop profile. I know I don't expect an exact match myself, but when we can get PTE, it's $8/pt. Low supply/high demand. So for me, even if it gets close, we will be very happy.

For my 1.064, it was 6lb DME and 1lb corn sugar. So you will probably want around 3lb 2oz +/- with .5 corn sugar.

Good luck. Let me know how it turns out! Mine goes in keg this weekend!

You don't need carapils. Carapils is already in extract. You will be need more corn sugar for drying the beer out. I doubt you will hit 1.011 FG anyway, but shoot for 10-15% corn sugar as opposed to the 6% used in the all grain recipe. Make a big, healthy, nasty yeast starter. A full volume boil is needed for this beer. So don't top off with any plain water. Plan on boiling 3.5 gallons down to 2.7 or 2.5 gallons if that's all you can fit in your kettle.

Great input! I will give that a try on the next one I do.

So if I leave the carapils out can I expect decent body and head retention with just the DME, crystal and corn sugar? I never really thought about body until making my first watery feeling beer and now I notice it in everything I drink and prefer a beer with good body.

If I follow MonkeyWrench's recommendation on amounts and keep the Carapils I'll be at a little over 12% corn surgar correct? If my calculation is correct I think this is what I'll go with.

I just checked Mr. Malty and based on the age of my yeast I'm going to need a 1.5 liter starter. Should this be big, healthy and nasty enough?

I'm definitely doing full boil on this one. I actually just got a burner and 11 g kettle, but I don't have the means to cool five gallons efficiently so I'm only going to do 2.5 gallons for this first attempt. My other kettle is only 3.5 gallons. Hopefully Santa will be leaving me an immersion cooler so I can bump it up to 5 gallons if this first attempt is successful.

It needs to be successful...with the burner, kettle, propane tank, ingredients, stir plate and flask this is going to be a really expensive beer. I'm sure it will get much cheaper over time.

Thanks again for the input and advice! I can't wait to brew this one...maybe I can get it in Friday afternoon if the family leaves early.

Here's how mine worked out for my 1.064, as you see the CS is already in the recommended range:

6lb DME 75%
.5lb Carapils 6.25%
.5lb C-40 6.25%
1lb Corn Sugar 12.5%

Here's what happens when I remove the CP and adjust up to 1.065:

6.25lb DME 80.65%
.5lb C-40 6.45%
1lb Corn Sugar 12.9%

Or if you keep the DME the same and up the CS:

6lb DME 77.42%
.5lb C-40 6.45%
1.25lb Corn Sugar 16.13%

The reason the corn sugar is up there already is the fact that so much less DME is used compared to a larger grain bill to equal the same OG, so it throws the % off from the original recipe.

I can't make any recommendations based on experience to the effect of the carapils in an extract batch. At some point you will have added more sugar than the extract malt can cover/counteract/whatever and you will end up with a thin beer, where that number is, I can't comment. Given the recommendations, maybe leave it out for this batch, if it seems a bit thin, adjust it for the next batch. Or heck, throw it in if you have it, and maybe leave it out for the next batch. (once you taste it, there will be a next batch...trust me)

For my starter, I used a smack pack added to a 1l starter overnight. I also added 1tsp of yeast nutrient to the wort boil at 10min. This thing was chugging away the next morning. I want to say that Vinnie has recommended not over pitching because he likes to stress the yeast. I would think a 1.5l starter for a 2.5g batch should be plenty.

The carapils is already mixed in with the crystal so I guess I'll go with it on this try. I think I'll go with your first recipe with 6 lbs DME and 1lb corn sugar this time around and maybe mess with it a little on future attempts if I feel that it needs it.

I was hoping to get this done this weekend but I won't be able to get the starter going until this afternoon and we're travelling tomorrow morning, so I guess it's going to have to wait until next weekend. Maybe I'll make a small SMaSH Sunday afternoon.

So I finally got around to making this today and overshot my volume by somewhere between one and two quarts. I did a quick boil this morning to try to figure out my boil off with my new pot and burner but I still ended up over. SG was 1.054 instead of 1.064. Is there anything I can do at this point to increase the gravity or should I just roll with it and start with less water next time?