Mash PH questions

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briggssteel

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Ok I am new to adjusting my water and would like some advice. First of all here is my report average:

Calcium:35
Magnesium:8
Sodium:75
Sulfates:122
Chloride:65
Total Alkalinity:57
PH:7.8
Total Hardness:121

My recipe is a Robust Porter:

11 pounds Marris Otter
.25 pounds Victory Malt
.75 pounds Crystal 70L
.75 pounds Black Malt
.50 pounds Chocolate
.25 pounds Carapils

Add 1.7gms or 1/2 teaspoon of Calcium Chloride putting my Calcium at 60 and my Chlorides at 108.

Mash at 154 for 1 hour

Aiming for a PH of 5.3 or 5.4


Now, I've plugged all of this into brewing water and have some questions. It says right now my mash PH should be 5.65.

1. It's not asking for my water PH. Does it assume it's around 8?

2. I thought dark grains were supposed to drive down the Mash PH significantly ending up too low. This is too high.

3. If I add 3ml of 88% Lactic Acid it will drop my PH to 5.45, but I have my doubts about adding that much lactic acid and it not affecting the flavor of my beer. Plus it drops my RA to -122. I thought RA was supposed to be high for a porter?

I guess my question is does the EZ Water calculation seem right? This is my first time adjusting water and I don't want to go nuts. Just get my Calcium to correct levels and have my mash PH be in the correct range. Thanks in advance.

Oh, I also had a side question. I am moving my brewing to another location. The water is run through a water softener. Should I use this water? Wouldn't a water report that I get be way off after it's been run through the softener? Thanks.
 
Adding that much Lactic Acid will drop it to 5.39, not 5.45. I accidentally had 2 grams of baking soda still in there from screwing around with it.
 
I've never used EZ water, but I use Palmer's spread sheet for all my brews with great results. I'm no expert, but I'll share what I came up with. Your water profile is not ideal for a dark beer, so it took some tweaking and I used 75% dillution. I assumed you would be mashing in with 4 gallons of water. This means you will need to use 3/4 distilled water (3 gal) to 1/4 tap (1 gal). For salt additions I have 3.5g CaCO3, 0.5g CaCl, and 3g baking soda (NaHCO3). This leaves you with Ca - 110, Mag - 2, Na - 73, Cl - 32, Sulfate - 31, RA - 283. You definitely do not want to add any acid because the dark malts will already bring down the Ph below the ideal zone, hence all the carbonates I've added back in. This is what I would do with your water profile. As for the water softner, do not use softened water to brew with, ever! Hope this helps.
 
Thanks for The suggestions. I'm actually mashing with just over 5 gallons. 1.5 quarts per pound. So you think the dark grains will definitely take the PH too low with the water I have? I'm not opposed to the idea of adding dark grains at the end of the boil. I've been going back and forth deciding if I want to add them all at once or at the end.
 
Thanks for The suggestions. I'm actually mashing with just over 5 gallons. 1.5 quarts per pound. So you think the dark grains will definitely take the PH too low with the water I have? I'm not opposed to the idea of adding dark grains at the end of the boil. I've been going back and forth deciding if I want to add them all at once or at the end.

I would NOT add baking soda! It tastes bad. You can't add chalk successfully without bubbling co2 through it- so forget the CaCo3.

Let me take a look and see a likely pH.

But before I do, you said you have a report "average". That's not good as sometimes the average isn't indicative at all as to what is actually coming out of the tap. If your average alkalinity is, say, 10-150, for example, then the information is useless. What does your report actually say?
 
I would NOT add baking soda! It tastes bad. You can't add chalk successfully without bubbling co2 through it- so forget the CaCo3.

Let me take a look and see a likely pH.

But before I do, you said you have a report "average". That's not good as sometimes the average isn't indicative at all as to what is actually coming out of the tap. If your average alkalinity is, say, 10-150, for example, then the information is useless. What does your report actually say?



I've attached a screen shot of the water report sent to me by the plant. It has all of the months listed and the averages. I notice sodium is a bit all over the place and sulfates a bit as well. They are fairly consistent for the most part. I'll be interested to see what you get. EZ Water is giving me about 5.4 mashing all the grains in. However I haven't had a chance to measure the PH of my mashes yet so I have no experience in how the darker grains will affect my PH. Thanks in advance! I appreciate you taking the time to help out a fellow homebrewer.

Picture 1.jpg
 
I would NOT add baking soda! It tastes bad. You can't add chalk successfully without bubbling co2 through it- so forget the CaCo3.

Let me take a look and see a likely pH.

But before I do, you said you have a report "average". That's not good as sometimes the average isn't indicative at all as to what is actually coming out of the tap. If your average alkalinity is, say, 10-150, for example, then the information is useless. What does your report actually say?

Sure baking soda would taste bad if you used too much, but if you balance the minerals, there won't be a problem. I've never heard about the chalk/co2 thing, where did you get that info? I would like to read about it. Here's what Palmer says about chalk, "Because of its limited solubility it is only effective when added directly to the mash." I use both baking soda and chalk when necessary with effective results and no bad taste. Just watch out for high levels of both sodium and sulfate because that will taste bad.
 
Sure baking soda would taste bad if you used too much, but if you balance the minerals, there won't be a problem. I've never heard about the chalk/co2 thing, where did you get that info? I would like to read about it. Here's what Palmer says about chalk, "Because of its limited solubility it is only effective when added directly to the mash." I use both baking soda and chalk when necessary with effective results and no bad taste. Just watch out for high levels of both sodium and sulfate because that will taste bad.

I got the info in several places but this is the best place to explain it: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk

It's all relevant, but the short answer is in the middle of the page:

"Now that we know how to dissolve chalk in water we need to ask us why put forth this effort? Especially since the mash will provide an acid environment that should dissolve any chalk that wasn't dissolved in the water. At mash pH (~5.5) less than 0.00005 % of the carbo species are carbonate.

For some reason, however, mash pH experiments conducted with suspended and dissolved chalk showed that suspended, i.e. undissolved chalk, is limited in its ability to raise the mash pH. This is shown in Figure 4. Undissolved chalk was unable to raise the mash pH by more than 0.2 units. This was the case for both Pilsner and Munich malt mashes and does not seem to depend on the acidity of the malt. Dissolved chalk, on the other hand, showed a nice fairly linear relationship between chalk concentration and pH.

I tested this in a side-by-side experiment where I brewed a Schwarzbier with water that had suspended chalk and water that had dissolved chalk. Based on the mash pH research I knew that, when dissolving it, I could use only half the chalk and would still get the same mash pH. That was validated in the experiment." (Kai Troester)
 
Baking soda always tastes bad (to me anyway) and too much is, IMO, any. There is nothing you can do to 'balance' that taste. More to the point is that baking soda is alkaline and will raise mash pH - something which is not desirable except in the case where inordinate amounts of dark/black malt have been used. It is probable, in such cases, that the beer can never be good because if you need enough bicarbonate to neutralize dark malt acidity you have probably used too much dark malt. The same goes for calcium carbonate in spades. It is even more alkaline. With it there is the additional problem that it reacts very slowly at mash pH. This is, ostensibly, a blessing. One adds a load of CaCO3 to the mash, checks the pH and it looks OK because only a small portion of the addition dissolves. Problem is that it keeps dissolving after the pH meter has been put away and tries to pull the pH of the mash, wort, and beer too high. One winds up with a dull tasting and, I've been told in extreme cases, chalky tasting beer.

The reason CO2 must/should be used is that carbonate in natural waters is brought into solution through the action of carbonic acid (dissolved CO2). Chalk can be dissolved using other acids but then winds up with a mix of calcium sulfate, calcium chloride.... and calcium bicarbonate rather than the straight calcium bicarbonate that one would have in the case of a natural water. Many home brewers fool themselves into thinking they can duplicate, say, London water by adding chalk and dissolving it with other acids. The only way to duplicate a natural water (not that it is usually necessary or even desirable to do that) is to imitate nature and use CO2. Which is, BTW, such a PITA that this is one of the reasons it is usually not desirable.

Where it is necessary to neutralize dark malt acids calcium hydroxide (slaked lime) is usually a better choice (though one must be very cautious in measuring it out as it's a pretty strong base and reacts quickly).
 
Thanks for that. Is there one "Super" book that covers water in depth? I've read so many different sources and still have questions.
 
So basically I don't want the PH to get too low in the first place because chalk doesn't dissolve well without Co2 and baking soda seems to give some undesirable flavors, not to mention the water has plenty of sodium anyways.
 
So basically I don't want the PH to get too low in the first place because chalk doesn't dissolve well without Co2 and baking soda seems to give some undesirable flavors, not to mention the water has plenty of sodium anyways.

As a rule, the mash pH doesn't really get too low anyway, unless you're using a TON of black/dark malt. And with your water, that's probably not going to happen anyway. You probably don't need the lactic acid. To check, try using a different water calculator to see if you get the same results (I've used braukaiser's and bru'nwater, and they seem to agree).

As far as the earlier question about water softeners, you don't want to use softened water as then the sodium is way too high.
 
Thanks for that. Is there one "Super" book that covers water in depth? I've read so many different sources and still have questions.

There is one in progress (by Colin Kaminsky and John Palmer) but it probably won't hit the shelves until sometime next year. You can look at Kai Troester's website (braukaiser), my website (wetnewf.org) or Bru'n Water's instruction section.
 
Another thing to keep in mind is that if you do have too much dark specialty grains that drives the pH down too far (though aj's point that you probably shouldn't use that much in the first place is well taken), you can remedy that by not mashing them with your base grains. You can steep them separately or just add them to the mash after mashing is complete, before the sparge. There are several ways to steep them effectively. Gordon Strong talks about these methods in his book, Brewing Better Beers.

This also has the added benefit of reducing possible harshness that can be introduced in mashing these dark grains, according to Gordon.

I'm going to experiment with this in my coming brews, and take it into account when planning my water chemistry.
 
Another thing to keep in mind is that if you do have too much dark specialty grains that drives the pH down too far (though aj's point that you probably shouldn't use that much in the first place is well taken), you can remedy that by not mashing them with your base grains. You can steep them separately or just add them to the mash after mashing is complete, before the sparge. There are several ways to steep them effectively. Gordon Strong talks about these methods in his book, Brewing Better Beers.

This also has the added benefit of reducing possible harshness that can be introduced in mashing these dark grains, according to Gordon.

I'm going to experiment with this in my coming brews, and take it into account when planning my water chemistry.

Right but if I saved The roasted malt's for the end wouldn't I need to use acid to get my mash PH within range?
 
Right but if I saved The roasted malt's for the end wouldn't I need to use acid to get my mash PH within range?

Possibly. And you'd have to weigh that with the possible advantages expressed by Strong. A bit of acid doesn't hurt though.

The key is to understand all the factors and how the come together, and then make your decision about how you're going to mash and how you're going to address your water chemistry.
 
I agree with almost everything Gordon says but I'm not sure I agree on this one. That does not say I disagree - just that I'm not sure I agree. I don't do many (in fact only 1) beer(s) that use dark malts (I don't consider Munich I a dark malt) but it seems to me that if there were an advantage to holding the dark grains out until the end that commercial operations would do that (and perhaps they do but I'm not aware of it). The issue of the pH going too low as a consequence of controlling for mash pH w/o and then having it then dropping further when the black malts are added could be compensated for by adding alkali (lime) to the wort. OTOH some brewers add acid to worts to get their pH's down so it might turn out that kettle pH would be just right if the dark malts were added later. To be sure of any of this it would be best to measure pH in the kettle as well as in the mash tun.
 
I think I'm just going to add it all to the mash and see where it ends up in terms of PH. I feel like this is one of those "won't know for sure until you try it" things. If it ends up too low (below 5.1) I probably add a bit of baking soda or slaked lime (If I can find it) to get it into normal levels. If it ends up going super low then next time I'll definitely be adding roasted and crystal grains at the end from then on.
 
I think I'm just going to add it all to the mash and see where it ends up in terms of PH. I feel like this is one of those "won't know for sure until you try it" things. If it ends up too low (below 5.1) I probably add a bit of baking soda or slaked lime (If I can find it) to get it into normal levels. If it ends up going super low then next time I'll definitely be adding roasted and crystal grains at the end from then on.

You should be able to find it at Walmart or anywhere that has canning supplies. Look for "pickling lime" near the jars and other canning supplies.
 
How much do you add as a rule of thumb? Like a gram at a time?

Pickling Lime is very strong stuff. Don't add it unless you know how to calculate the dose. For instance, my last Munich Dunkel required 0.3 grams in a 4 gal mash volume since I start with RO water. Bru'n Water is a tool for calculating pickling lime additions, but its dependent upon using a scale with 0.1g precision when you're dealing with 5 gallon batch sizes.
 
How much do you add as a rule of thumb? Like a gram at a time?

It all depends on the grain bill etc but around .5G to raise mash pH .1

I looked at your #s and I don't like the Na+ level.

If I were brewing that beer, I would use 100% RO for the sparge and add
4G CaCl+ to the mash.

That drops the Na+ to 31 and the mash pH shows 5.58 on EZ water, but it will probably be a little lower than that due to the dark malts.
 
Well I mashed in with all the grains and got a PH of 5.1. I added a half a teaspoon of chalk to try and raise it but it didn't do anything. I know 5.1 is a tad low but is it acceptable?
 
Well I mashed in with all the grains and got a PH of 5.1. I added a half a teaspoon of chalk to try and raise it but it didn't do anything. I know 5.1 is a tad low but is it acceptable?

Not a surprise. Several Bru'n Water users have reported similar findings. Chalk is not able to neutralize the weak acids present in the mash and beer. I have abandoned chalk use and ought to remove it from Bru'n Water since it is so ineffective.
 
Well I mashed in with all the grains and got a PH of 5.1. I added a half a teaspoon of chalk to try and raise it but it didn't do anything. I know 5.1 is a tad low but is it acceptable?

It's a bit low if it's real. Was it measured with a properly calibrated meter? If so then there is a potential problem. If measured with strips then you are in better shape as the actual pH was probably (note emphasis) appreciably higher (5.3 - 5.4).
 
Not a surprise. Several Bru'n Water users have reported similar findings. Chalk is not able to neutralize the weak acids present in the mash and beer. I have abandoned chalk use and ought to remove it from Bru'n Water since it is so ineffective.

Chalk is perfectly well capable of neutralizing the acids present in mash and beer. It just doesn't do it very fast. One way in which people get in trouble by using chalk is through failure to recognize that it is continuing to react long after the pH meter has been put back on the shelf. This may have worked to OP's benefit as even were the original mash in pH a bit low it probably climbed appreciably up to the point where the wort was separated from the grains (which would filter out the undissolved and thus un reacted chalk).
 
It's a bit low if it's real. Was it measured with a properly calibrated meter? If so then there is a potential problem. If measured with strips then you are in better shape as the actual pH was probably (note emphasis) appreciably higher (5.3 - 5.4).

Yea I used a calibrated PH meter so it's probably accurate. What can be expected with a PH this low?
 
Chalk is perfectly well capable of neutralizing the acids present in mash and beer. It just doesn't do it very fast.

Um...that's a problem since most of the enzymatic conversion has occurred in the first 15 minutes. Functionally, chalk doesn't get the job done in a timely fashion.

With that in mind, I suppose chalk would provide greater effect in keeping the pH of the overall wort from dropping too low by the time you're running off.
 
Yes it is a problem from a couple of POVs. First, assuming it was used because dough in pH was too low, it doesn't raise it fast enough to set pH within the desired range for the first set of enzymes (be they beta glucanases, proteases or amylases). But chalk is the gift that keeps giving. Over time more and more acid is neutralized and the pH continues to rise. Beta glucanase rest pH might be too low, saccharification pH or kettle pH may be too high. pH in the fermentor may be too high (i.e. high to the point that the yeast have establishing the pH they need.

As I have said many times before if one's mash pH is 5.0 or less something is wrong. Look to recipe, the means being used to measure pH etc to determine what it is. If you, with open eyes, use enough black malt or accidentally put in enough sauermalz to get the pH down to 5.0 or less then neutralize it with lime or sodium carbonate.
 
Yea I used a calibrated PH meter so it's probably accurate. What can be expected with a PH this low?

I can't answer that question as I have never, in 30 years of brewing, managed to get myself into this situation. We can, of course, assume, that efficiency may be down but I wouldn't expect that to be by much. It isn't efficiency considerations that drive one to strive to hit a particular pH so much as it is the fact that at the right pH all the 'flavors become brighter'. I understand what that means in terms of pH too high (which I have experienced) but don't know what the effects would be if it is too low. Sub optimal, whatever that may mean.

Given that mash pH is too low you can certainly expect that kettle pH will be too low and a probable manifestation of that would be lower hops utilization. With the extra acidity the yeast will have an easier job of establishing the fermentation pH they want. Will they undershoot so the fermentation is impaired? Intuition says no - they will just secrete less acid than they normally do but I have nothing substantive to back that intuitive feel up.
 
I just tuned in as I am mashing a Robust Porter. This is a great discussion (as all water discussions are when AJ weighs in.)

I have a 16.5 gallon mash going right now at about 1.78 qt/lb dough in for a porter. My initial pH (~70F) was a bit low at 5.0. I've added 4g of CaCO3 and watched its risen to 5.4. Everything tastes good. I have not used any CaCO3 in the past, but it seemed to do the job (a bit slowly.)

My pH meter was calibrated (2-points) before I mashed. I think this gives me about a 5.1 mash pH in the mash tun. I plan to add small amount of CaCL in the boil just to bump my chloride a little and be done with it.

I have pretty good notes and am happy to post my recipe and calculated guess at my water profile (since it has not been tested recently).

Mostly I wanted to chime in and say thanks. This is a great thread.
 
TimmyR said:
I just tuned in as I am mashing a Robust Porter. This is a great discussion (as all water discussions are when AJ weighs in.)

I have a 16.5 gallon mash going right now at about 1.78 qt/lb dough in for a porter. My initial pH (~70F) was a bit low at 5.0. I've added 4g of CaCO3 and watched its risen to 5.4. Everything tastes good. I have not used any CaCO3 in the past, but it seemed to do the job (a bit slowly.)

My pH meter was calibrated (2-points) before I mashed. I think this gives me about a 5.1 mash pH in the mash tun. I plan to add small amount of CaCL in the boil just to bump my chloride a little and be done with it.

I have pretty good notes and am happy to post my recipe and calculated guess at my water profile (since it has not been tested recently).

Mostly I wanted to chime in and say thanks. This is a great thread.

AJ - if you are still following this thread, do you think the small amount of CaCO3 added to my mash is likely to have any detrimental effects? I was just curious. Thanks.
 
The problems with chalk are 2

1. It raises mash pH which is in many cases something you do not want to do. Most of the effort brewers make in treating their water is aimed at lowering alkalinity and thus mash pH.

2. Where alkalinity is required chalk is a poor source because of the long reaction time. You add chalk and the pH goes up so you think you have succeeded and move on with the mash but in fact only a portion has reacted so that as you continue the mash chalk continues to dissolve and the pH continues to rise. Ca(OH)2 is a better choice from this perspective as it reacts quickly.

I would not add chalk to mash. If I want carbonate based alkalinity (which I rarely do) I add chalk to the water and bubble CO2 through the water. This makes sure that the water reaching the grain contains calcium bicarbonate as it would in a naturally alkaline water. The reactions will be quick in such a case as the chalk is already dissolved.
 
Thanks AJ, I added 2 g and checked the pH a couple times. It stayed at 5.2 so I took a chance and added 2 more grams and after 15 min it was 5.4. My mash was a constant recirc. The final runnings pH were also 5.4 I believe. It certainly may have gone over, but it was slow and I missed it if it did. That amount of CaCO3, based on my water and the SRM of the beer, seemed to get it a little closer on Palmer's spreadsheet as well, but I did not really worry too much about it. I really just wanted to add a little calcium and that seemed to be the best form to do so in light of the mash pH. D

Do you think a 5.0 pH at room temp would have been a better solution for a dark beer like a porter? I know you do not have the reicpe and water profile to base it on, but I was curious your thoughts on tackling the lower pHs that can be seen in darker beers.
 
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