MagicMatt
Brewmathemagician
What do y'all use to raise the pH when brewing darker beers and using 100% RO?
A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer
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What do y'all use to raise the pH when brewing darker beers and using 100% RO?
I've never actually had to do that (I don't brew a lot of really dark beers except the occasional 70 SRM stout) but extensive experiment and study seems to indicate that sodium bicarbonate is the best bet unless you are already at high sodium levels in which case calcium hydroxide is probably best. The calcium carbonate which home brewers have used in quantity for years turns out to have problems associated with it (takes forever to react).
I never use 100% RO. I used to use Kentwood, though. But if you wanted to use RO and add sodium bicarbonate, you could get someone from the BR area to bring you some of their tap water (I also hear the Northshore has a similar analysis).
Our water is from a sodium bicarbonate aquifer, so that's pretty much the only mineral content. The profile here is a little higher in Sodium (my tested water was 79 ppm) than mine, but pretty close overall:http://brbrewers.com/content.cfm?id=237
MagicMatt
Brewmathemagician
Thanks, I'll have to look into the baking soda. My tap water has about 30ppm Sodium. What would be considered "high" sodium levels? And what would the threshold be for adding sodium bicarbonate (i.e are there negative effects from adding "too much")?
I never use 100% RO. I used to use Kentwood, though. But if you wanted to use RO and add sodium bicarbonate, you could get someone from the BR area to bring you some of their tap water (I also hear the Northshore has a similar analysis).
Ha I never realized you were from down here, nice! I actually do have a brewing friend who just moved to BR and still comes down for brew day, but looking at those numbers I don't think my water is too far off. That shows a alkalinity of 174, mine is about 140. And with the higher sodium levels I'm not sure if it would be worth it. Definitely something to think about though, thanks!
The effect would be salty beer. Honestly, you'd probably be better off mixing RO and tap.
Generally speaking, NOLA's mineral content is higher but sodium and bicarbonate are lower since the water source is surface water instead of aquifer. But yeah, I'm from south of NOLA (Lafourche parish) originally and live just outside of BR now. Before we got a LHBS, I used to shop at Brewstock all the time. I actually stopped in a few weeks ago and bought out the WLP028 since I was at a client not too far away. The Kolsch that Kyle made for NOOT last year was my recipe.
Pickling Lime is an effective alkali when needed. It does add calcium and hydroxide, and acts very quickly in the mash assuming you are thoroughly mixing. Bru'n Water can help to calculate the amount. I prefer Pickling Lime over Baking Soda because of the quick action and the lack of sodium. All that said - some sodium and magnesium in the water profile can add a nice nuance to a dark beer, especially something malt heavy.
Of course - Msr. Toby makes some of the finest strong ales I have tasted... he has his process dialed in.
Of course - Msr. Toby makes some of the finest strong ales I have tasted... he has his process dialed in.
roncruiser
Well-Known Member
Cool. That's the same approach I'm taking but instead of RO, I am using DI.
I have some data which shows that it does not act that quickly in 'in vitro' experiments with phosphate. I need to try it with actual malt and see if this is still the case (i.e. do a titration with kalkwasser and malt) but I won't be able to do that until fall. I think John P may have referenced some of my data in the Water book.
I have the book handy and will look that up. I plan to run some tests soon myself and compare to baking soda. I was under the impression that hydroxide reacts nearly immediately in the liquid, where the bicarbonate in the baking soda takes a little more time to hydrate. Both are effective, but with my residual sodium, I tend to avoid adding more. In both, it seems the reactions are fast enough that it is difficult to get good samples cooled to room temps, which may have biased my notes. Actually - I have some RO set out, I can run a quick test at room temp, see if I can generate a reasonable slope.
So I think I need some advice.
RO water isn't the cheapest thing in the world where I am, so I'm trying to figure out a way to bring my bicarbonate down in my home and I think (if I've read enough of this thread.. ~50 pages worth) that I should be able to add Ca++ to the water and boil it which will provide a catalyst for the precipitation reaction and the bicarbs would fall out of solution. So my 3 questions are:
1. Would that even work or would I be better off just shelling for RO water every batch then following the primer?
2. (assuming that would work) I just need to add enough Ca to reduce my bicarbonate to 0 and have enough left over for 50-150ppm?
3. What Ca salt should I use to not mess up the other ion levels in my water?
I was thinking CaCl or gypsum, and I could add some potassium metabisulfide to reduce the chlorine if I use CaCl.
Here's my water report, all units a ppm
Calcium 21
Magnesium 14
Bicarbonate 150
Sodium 20
Chloride 5
Sulfate 5
total alkalinity 170
RO water isn't the cheapest thing in the world where I am, so I'm trying to figure out a way to bring my bicarbonate down in my home and I think (if I've read enough of this thread.. ~50 pages worth) that I should be able to add Ca++ to the water and boil it which will provide a catalyst for the precipitation reaction and the bicarbs would fall out of solution. So my 3 questions are:
1. Would that even work or would I be better off just shelling for RO water every batch then following the primer?
2. (assuming that would work) I just need to add enough Ca to reduce my bicarbonate to 0 and have enough left over for 50-150ppm?
3. What Ca salt should I use to not mess up the other ion levels in my water?
I was thinking CaCl or gypsum, and I could add some potassium metabisulfide to reduce the chlorine if I use CaCl.
Here's my water report, all units a ppm
Calcium 21
Magnesium 14
Bicarbonate 150
Sodium 20
Chloride 5
Sulfate 5
total alkalinity 170
The calcium isn't a catalyst - it takes place in the reaction and is precipitated along with the carbonate.
Boiling (with or without supplemented calcium) is widely used to decarbonate brewing water. Using RO or diluting with RO to the point where you practically have pure RO and using the primer also is widely used. Certainly the latter is easier in many ways and is within the purview of the Primer.
You cannot remove all the bicarbonate with this method. You need to understand the method better. You can start at
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=529977
Softening by this method is definitely not within the purview of the Primer which is dedicated to KISS approaches.
Given the low levels of everything else you can use any calcium salt you want (except, obviously, things like calcium cyanide) and would, in most cases use either calcium chloride or calcium sulfate.
Ok, I read that other thread, and thank you so much for directing me there! Self checking here... Ca and bicarbonate will both precipitate out leaving 1 mEq/L of whichever value was lower at the start.
Therefore I should add Ca until it's ppm exceed the bicarbonate ppm and I will be left with 1 mEq/L bicarbonate and the calcium will be 1 mEq/L + whatever amount I added in excess of the bicarbonate. Am I understanding that correctly?
(I'm sorry if I'm being dense, I work in physics not chemistry, all this stuff is very rusty for me)
Therefore I should add Ca until it's ppm exceed the bicarbonate ppm and I will be left with 1 mEq/L bicarbonate and the calcium will be 1 mEq/L + whatever amount I added in excess of the bicarbonate. Am I understanding that correctly?
(I'm sorry if I'm being dense, I work in physics not chemistry, all this stuff is very rusty for me
)Eaxmple: Alkalinity 170/50 = 3.4 mEq/L. Add calcium salts to 4 mEq/L. You should then precipitate 2.4 mEq/L each of carbonate and calcium leaving 1 mEq/L alkalinity and 4 - 2.4 = 1.6 mEq/L Ca++
Not dense - you've got this one. As it's physical chemistry I'm sure you'll get the hang of it pretty quickly.(I'm sorry if I'm being dense, I work in physics not chemistry, all this stuff is very rusty for me
Ahhh that does make more sense, I think I've got a handle on it now. You sir are a national treasure, thank you!
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Without reading this whole thread and if I did proly would still not understand this whole water thing if i start with RO or distilled water what would I do just to make a all around good water. I/E what would I use and how much per gallon of water used. I am a IPA freak.
You wouldn't find what you want for an IPA in this thread. This thread is intended to give the beginning water contestant an idea of what they need to help out their brewing with minimal thought. It is a Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) approach that is a big step in the right direction for anyone that doesn't want to think too much about water.
If you want to explore better IPA water, you might consider visiting the Water Knowledge page on the Bru'n Water site and exploring Bru'n Water.
The answer to your question is in #1 though I now tend to advise people to use half a teaspoon each of calcium chloride and gypsum per 5 gal. This is a good starting point for an IPA though you will have to adjust the sulfate (and perhaps the chloride as well) to give you the combination of effects from those ions that you like best which will depend on your personal tastes. The idea behind starting with half a tsp of each is that you can experiment with adding additional small amounts of these salts to the finished beer in the glass to see if you think more improves or degrades it.
I'm sure this has been discussed and I apologize up front for repeating the question but the search thread function wasn't helpful. When do we add the gypsum and cacl? Before or during dough in? If it's during do we need to hold back a proportionate amount of the additions for the sparge water? ( I know this is counter to the KISS philosophy of the sticky )
Also, to convert from sauermalz to adding 88% lactic acid I came up with the following, does this look close enough?:
(Given that sauermalz is 1 to 2% lactic acid by weight, using 1.5%)
For example for 10 lb grain bill add 0.20 lb sauermalz OR 1.30 ml of 88% lactic acid.
Also, to convert from sauermalz to adding 88% lactic acid I came up with the following, does this look close enough?:
Code:
88% lactic acid solution (milliliters) = (( 0.015 * (ORIGINAL_GRAIN_WEIGHT_LBS / ( 1 / PERCENT_SAUERMALZ -1) ) * 453.592) / 0.88 )/ 1.21
= (( 0.015 * SAUERMALZ_WEIGHT_LBS * 453.592) / 0.88 )/ 1.21
= 6.389819684447784 * SAUERMALZ_WEIGHT_LBSFor example for 10 lb grain bill add 0.20 lb sauermalz OR 1.30 ml of 88% lactic acid.
The KISS principle says add all you salts to the entire volume of water being treated.
I answered the equivalence question in https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=533660 just the other day. As it has been asked again here and as this hardly seems suitable for a KISS thread I've expanded on the answer in that other thread, qv.
I answered the equivalence question in https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=533660 just the other day. As it has been asked again here and as this hardly seems suitable for a KISS thread I've expanded on the answer in that other thread, qv.
So just start with a half a teaspoon of each per 5 gallons of distilled water and see how that goes. Sounds simple.
EcuPirate07
Beer is a food group
Let's say I pour a pint of my pale ale I just made following the 1/2 tsp rule, what would be a good measure to add to the pint to be able to visualize it in a 5g batch? I hope I'm asking this correctly. IE what amount would I add just to the pint and then how would I scale it because we are already working with minuscule amounts per 5g.
One US pint is roughly 2.5% of a 5 gallon batch (16oz/640oz), so you would add 2.5% of the five gallon addition. So, if you were going to add 1/2 tsp to the 5 gallon batch (~2.5g), then you add 2.5% of that to a pint, effectively 0.0625g. You'll obviously need a pretty fine resolution scale.
EcuPirate07
Beer is a food group
Thanks for the insight, I think my scale will get me down to .06 so close enough.
This is the one I have for that sort of thing. Only goes to mg, but very handy for those sorts of measurements.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012TDNAM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012TDNAM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
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copper2hopper
Well-Known Member
Subscribed
So I have always had bad efficiency, like low 60's. I have tried every trick I could find. The only thing I hadn't done because I didn't want to spend the money is try and monitor and adjust pH during the mash. I tried using my city water report and spreadsheets to adjust water profiles, I've tried spring water, always the same result. I gave this water recipe a shot yesterday and my efficiency magically shot up to 80%.
I know it's just one brew and I don't even know how it tastes yet but I'm happy with the result so far. Thanks AJ!
I know it's just one brew and I don't even know how it tastes yet but I'm happy with the result so far. Thanks AJ!
I will be brewing the following recipes this weekend with RO:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=290419
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=319619
and was planning to follow post #1's guidelines of 1 teaspoon (or even 1/2 teaspoon based on your recent recommendations) each of calcium chloride dihydrate and gypsum per 5 gallons. I'm a KISS-type person, do you think that will work well? Based on the ingredients in these recipes I wasn't sure if the sauermalz was necessary.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=290419
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=319619
and was planning to follow post #1's guidelines of 1 teaspoon (or even 1/2 teaspoon based on your recent recommendations) each of calcium chloride dihydrate and gypsum per 5 gallons. I'm a KISS-type person, do you think that will work well? Based on the ingredients in these recipes I wasn't sure if the sauermalz was necessary.
Hey everyone. Like the rest of you I ruminate endlessly about my mash PH and haunt this board for answers. I wanted to relay my experience and see if anyone had some wisdom to offer.
I am 2 years into brewing and have just finished my 54th brewday (I brew almost every other weekend). I do all grain brew in a bag and always use distilled water that I build on. I use a Milwaukee 102 PH meter and calibrate it before each brewday. I have brewed multiple styles from browns to hefes to pilsners to biere de gardes to berlinerweiss'. My efficiency is always 70% to 73%. My problem is that, when following the primer instructions for a baseline beer, i am routinely getting a PH in mash that is around 5 even. My only brews that have been in the 5.4 range have been ones that I omitted the saurmalz from entirely. Has anyone else had this experience? The solution seems to be just not using saurmalz but, I am puzzled why my experience differs. It should be basic (chemistry) math that is repeatable... Right?
I am 2 years into brewing and have just finished my 54th brewday (I brew almost every other weekend). I do all grain brew in a bag and always use distilled water that I build on. I use a Milwaukee 102 PH meter and calibrate it before each brewday. I have brewed multiple styles from browns to hefes to pilsners to biere de gardes to berlinerweiss'. My efficiency is always 70% to 73%. My problem is that, when following the primer instructions for a baseline beer, i am routinely getting a PH in mash that is around 5 even. My only brews that have been in the 5.4 range have been ones that I omitted the saurmalz from entirely. Has anyone else had this experience? The solution seems to be just not using saurmalz but, I am puzzled why my experience differs. It should be basic (chemistry) math that is repeatable... Right?
No, there isn't a lot of repeatability as the malts that people use under the guidelines vary appreciably. Between the levels of high kilned malt in a dark beer (no sauermalz recommended) and a light beer (sauermalz recommended) is an infinigte continuum of colored malt mixes. Please remember that the Primer is a starting point and that you must experiment around it. You have done that discovering that some beers don't require sauermalz. Don't use it in those cases!
Thank you for the response and for creating this primer. Great information.
Since taking AJ's advice(special help with citric acid) I have been brewing better beer.
I need help again with water additions for a RIS I shall be brewing this weekend,in order that I might be drinking it at Christmas.
Recipe: 8 litre batch
Weyermann pale 1.100kg 47%
Light Munich 0.750kg 28%
TF dark crystal .250kg 10%
Cane sugar .250kg 10%
Roasted Barley 0.100kg 3.7%
TF pale chocolate malt 0.100kg 3.7%
Looking at an og of 1.077-1.080
As my local water has been going through some changes of late,becoming less pleasing,I will be using 100% RO/UV water.
According to the primer I should use NO acidification,adding only the baseline of Calcium Chloride.
Should I be looking to add more than the baseline?
Should I be looking to add more salts?
Should I be looking to add baking soda to the mash?
Thanks in advance
Lee
I need help again with water additions for a RIS I shall be brewing this weekend,in order that I might be drinking it at Christmas.
Recipe: 8 litre batch
Weyermann pale 1.100kg 47%
Light Munich 0.750kg 28%
TF dark crystal .250kg 10%
Cane sugar .250kg 10%
Roasted Barley 0.100kg 3.7%
TF pale chocolate malt 0.100kg 3.7%
Looking at an og of 1.077-1.080
As my local water has been going through some changes of late,becoming less pleasing,I will be using 100% RO/UV water.
According to the primer I should use NO acidification,adding only the baseline of Calcium Chloride.
Should I be looking to add more than the baseline?
Should I be looking to add more salts?
Should I be looking to add baking soda to the mash?
Thanks in advance
Lee
No, at least not the first time you brew this. As with any of these recommendations you must experiment to find the levels you ultimately come to consider the best.
No. Given that your high kilned malts amount to only 15% of the grist you should not need baking soda (or any other alkali).
Sorry to ask, and this may be obvious but when using RO I will add 1tsp cacl per 5 gallons of water for baseline.
When adjusting for style do I add the minerals per 5 gallons still?
So for example British Beer would be: 1tsp cacl and 1 tsp gypsum per 5 gallons?
When adjusting for style do I add the minerals per 5 gallons still?
So for example British Beer would be: 1tsp cacl and 1 tsp gypsum per 5 gallons?
Yes and Yes.
EcuPirate07
Beer is a food group
So Im gonna try this Kentucku Common recipe tonight https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=290419 whats the water chemistry recommendations? Should I use the Tap or start with my RO and build it up? and how, assuming i'm doing a 5g batch. This is a unique beer to me so I'm kinda at a loss.
roncruiser
Well-Known Member
I do not know the water chemistry recommendations for your brew, but I would start from an easy known base of water. Distilled or RO and build up from either of those two.
moreb33rplz
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It's probably in this thread somewhere, but what are the 'typical' additions to RO for an IPA?
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