In Defense of a Secondary

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KendallAdkins

KendallAdkins

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So, I am seeing more and more that veteran homebrewers shun the secondary fermentor, and maybe one day I will, too, but here is why I always use one.

There are two reasons, and it's actually more of a 1a and 1b.

It all comes down to my set up.

I have a 5 gallon carboy and a 3 gallon carboy.

I make 3 gallon AG batches.

I use the 5 gallon as my primary so I leave space for an active fermentation
and move to the 3 gallon for further conditioning and to reduce headspace once most of the fermentation is complete, usually about 2 weeks.

The other reason, also related to setup, is that I want that beer the hell out of my primary so I can brew another batch! At the pace I drink, 3 gallons lasts about two weeks (A respectable 2.29 beers a day average).

So with my current setup, I brew a new batch every two weeks, which requires me to use a secondary. Whenever I expand my setup, I may do away with it, but for now, it is the best thing for me.
 
I go out of my way to avoid having to do another transfer. If I was short primary vessels, I'd buy another before I'd put my beer in secondary if it truly was not needed (I usually brew 20+ batches per year and at most, 2 of those will need secondary). But, that's just me.

If it works for you and you're making great beer, then you're doing it right. That's all that matters. :mug:
 
As long as good beer comes out the other end, its all good.
Being comfortable with your process is very important.
 
I'm not one of those guys that thinks you'll ruin your beer by doing a secondary - I did them for years before I knew better and never had a noticeably oxidized batch. As long as you're careful with the transfer, there's nothing necessarily "wrong" with a secondary, imho.

I just don't do them anymore because 1) I'm lazy, and 2) I feel like I can get the same benefit by leaving it in primary an extra week and cold-crashing/adding gelatin. Plus I switched to kegging, and that's kind of like a combination of secondary and bottling at the same time anyway.

If doing a secondary works for your process and your pipeline, then kudos. I promise I won't judge you (too harshly) for it. ;) :mug:
 
the way i see it is just get more primary fermentors. i would find it very annoying to do a secondary for every batch i make.

after 2 weeks i keg my beer. You could just bottle or keg the beer at that time instead of doing a secondary.
 
I should have noted this on the first post, I have an extremely cheap wife that does not support my brewing hobby, so I can not purchase another primary at this time. Am I the only one with a wife that hates this hobby?
 
lol wut?

You cant spend 25$ on another primary?

Why does your wife hate this hobby so much?

My wife doesn't drink at all, any alcohol not just beer. And shes proud that i can make good beer and our friends and family love it. Also id have serious issues with my wife if she controlled my finances that much where i couldn't spend my money on little things here and there. The only hobby my wife hates is ones that are potentially dangerous, like when i had a motorcycle, she hated that.
 
I mostly work with ales, so most fermentations I do are two weeks long so I don't need to let my beers sit for very long; the only time I rack to secondary is when I'm dry-hopping or adding something for a secondary fermentation because of that. It's not that I particularly hate the idea of racking to secondary, it's that I don't see a need to disturb my beer to do it. If I was aging beers for months or years I'd certainly rack to a secondary or perhaps if I was doing a lot of lagers, but for your average ale there are zero reasons to do it.
 
KendallAdkins said:
I should have noted this on the first post, I have an extremely cheap wife that does not support my brewing hobby, so I can not purchase another primary at this time. Am I the only one with a wife that hates this hobby?
Click to expand...

control_freak.jpg


Moving the production part of the hobby completely outside while still allowing inside product delivery and consumption greatly reduces spousal disapproval imo.
 
Secondaries are also pretty great for lazy people and beers that age well. Don't want to bottle? Secondary. Don't feel like cleaning out that keg? Secondary. Ran out of CO2 and don't feel like driving to get some more? Secondary. Unexpected visitors? Secondary. Leaving town for whatever reason? Secondary.

It's a good catch-all for whatever wrench life might throw in your gears.
 
KendallAdkins said:
I should have noted this on the first post, I have an extremely cheap wife that does not support my brewing hobby, so I can not purchase another primary at this time. Am I the only one with a wife that hates this hobby?
Click to expand...

I feel bad for you man...:( My wife loves my hobby almost as much as she does drinking my beer. A lot of the time if i am not sure i want to spend the money on something new she will actually talk me into it! I always know around my birthday or Christmas when she starts asking me what i want to do with my setup thats a clue she is fishing for gift ideas! :rockin:
 
KendallAdkins said:
I should have noted this on the first post, I have an extremely cheap wife that does not support my brewing hobby, so I can not purchase another primary at this time. Am I the only one with a wife that hates this hobby?
Click to expand...

How about a 5 gallon bucket from Wal Mart? I just bought a bucket and lid for about $4.00. Of course, that could be another debate.
 
Maybe my racking skillz just suck, but I can't avoid getting some trub into the bottling bucket without first using secondary (more a "bright tank" I guess). That might change once I have cold-crash capability.
 
This is one of those things that I have never been able to figure out. Every one wants to do a yeast starter-- nessesary or not. No one wants to do a secondary??? That makes sense, let's have a good vigorus start, and then do our best to undermine that start by letting the beer sit on a pile of dead yeast, and whatever else might be sitting in there. Why is it that homebrewers try to emulate profetional practices that they don't need to worry about, while disregarding those that they should be concerned with? Why is a 1 litre erlenmyer flask and stir bar/plate considered easy/usefull while a syphon rod is considered difficult/intimidateing? If we are too lazey to transfer the beer, how do we ever summon the energy to brew the beer in the first place? My answer to this issue is, go ahead and omit the secondary. You will probably get away with it for a good long time, but sooner or later lightning will strike. There are already plenty of potential lightning rods sticking out of any given batch, so why tempt mother nature with one more?

Cheers.
--Adam Selene
 
seckert said:
I feel bad for you man...:( My wife loves my hobby almost as much as she does drinking my beer. A lot of the time if i am not sure i want to spend the money on something new she will actually talk me into it! I always know around my birthday or Christmas when she starts asking me what i want to do with my setup thats a clue she is fishing for gift ideas! :rockin:
Click to expand...

This is exactly how my wife is too!

-ben
 
Adam_Selene said:
This is one of those things that I have never been able to figure out. Every one wants to do a yeast starter-- nessesary or not. No one wants to do a secondary??? That makes sense, let's have a good vigorus start, and then do our best to undermine that start by letting the beer sit on a pile of dead yeast, and whatever else might be sitting in there. Why is it that homebrewers try to emulate profetional practices that they don't need to worry about, while disregarding those that they should be concerned with? Why is a 1 litre erlenmyer flask and stir bar/plate considered easy/usefull while a syphon rod is considered difficult/intimidateing? If we are too lazey to transfer the beer, how do we ever summon the energy to brew the beer in the first place? My answer to this issue is, go ahead and omit the secondary. You will probably get away with it for a good long time, but sooner or later lightning will strike. There are already plenty of potential lightning rods sticking out of any given batch, so why tempt mother nature with one more?

Cheers.
--Adam Selene
Click to expand...

There is no need to do a secondary in most cases for home brewers. The beer isnt sitting on top of a bunch of dead yeast. Big breweries need to get the beer off the yeast cause they have massive tanks and the pressure produced by the high volume of beer will kill the yeast. This obviously isn't the case for home brewers since we do small batches, mostly 5 or 10 gallons.

The added benefit vs the added risk for doing a secondary isn't worth it.

Also the need for a yeast starter is in most cases is very necessary. And the volume of your starter depends on the gravity and volume of the wort you are fermenting. its not always a 1 liter starter.
 
Adam_Selene said:
This is one of those things that I have never been able to figure out. Every one wants to do a yeast starter-- nessesary or not. No one wants to do a secondary??? That makes sense, let's have a good vigorus start, and then do our best to undermine that start by letting the beer sit on a pile of dead yeast, and whatever else might be sitting in there. Why is it that homebrewers try to emulate profetional practices that they don't need to worry about, while disregarding those that they should be concerned with? Why is a 1 litre erlenmyer flask and stir bar/plate considered easy/usefull while a syphon rod is considered difficult/intimidateing? If we are too lazey to transfer the beer, how do we ever summon the energy to brew the beer in the first place? My answer to this issue is, go ahead and omit the secondary. You will probably get away with it for a good long time, but sooner or later lightning will strike. There are already plenty of potential lightning rods sticking out of any given batch, so why tempt mother nature with one more?

Cheers.
--Adam Selene
Click to expand...

Well, a starter is never necessary- IF you have enough yeast cells. Most packages do not contain enough yeast for a 5 gallon batch of an OG greater than about 1.045. If you have more yeast (say, a slurry), no starter is necessary.

Racking, unless you move the beer under c02 in a closed environment, is always done. Racking to a new vessel in between the fermenter and the packaging is what others are calling "secondary". Why is a secondary useful? Why not ferment the beer, wait a couple of days for it to clear, and then package? That's what I do. Where is this "pile of dead yeast"? I suppose you mean the yeast cake/trub layer under the beer in the fermenter- but if you rack to a 'secondary', isn't there a pile of dead yeast there also? Or does it magically vanish?

Remember that autolysis is both temperature and pressure dependent. Although yeast cells are, like humans, dying from the moment they are "born", they don't die immediately after fermentation slows.
 
Yooper said:
Why not ferment the beer, wait a couple of days for it to clear, and then package? That's what I do.
Click to expand...

As do I. From grain to keg in 14 days or less is pretty much the norm for me. With a proper pitch, good aeration, and ferm temp control, even my biggest beers are usually ready for packaging within 2 weeks.
 
My kegged batches rarely get a secondary. My bottled batches usually get a secondary, but not always. It depends on the brew.
 
Adam_Selene said:
This is one of those things that I have never been able to figure out. Every one wants to do a yeast starter-- nessesary or not. No one wants to do a secondary??? That makes sense, let's have a good vigorus start, and then do our best to undermine that start by letting the beer sit on a pile of dead yeast, and whatever else might be sitting in there. Why is it that homebrewers try to emulate profetional practices that they don't need to worry about, while disregarding those that they should be concerned with? Why is a 1 litre erlenmyer flask and stir bar/plate considered easy/usefull while a syphon rod is considered difficult/intimidateing? If we are too lazey to transfer the beer, how do we ever summon the energy to brew the beer in the first place? My answer to this issue is, go ahead and omit the secondary. You will probably get away with it for a good long time, but sooner or later lightning will strike. There are already pl enty of potential lightning rods sticking out of any given batch, so why tempt mother nature with one more?

Cheers.
--Adam Selene
Click to expand...
I've been "getting away with" no secondary for over 20 years of brewing Adam. But I hear you, I'm just skating on thin ice and eventually its going to catch up to me.
 
teach said:
Ah, the old oxidation bogeyman. Is fear of "oxidation" really still a thing?
Click to expand...

Yes. Most of the beers I've judged in competitions show signs of oxidation. Sometimes it's not too bad- more of a "sherry" flavor rather than the really severe oxidation sign of "wet cardboard", but many homebrews do show oxidation after a period of time. Some are not too bad, as in a barleywine which is expected to have signs of oxidation, but many are much more out of place.
 
teach said:
Ah, the old oxidation bogeyman. Is fear of "oxidation" really still a thing?
Click to expand...


I've heard of hot side aeration/HSA being regarded as an overblown bogeyman by many experienced and respected homebrewers... But oxidation? Yes, that is totally a thing, I don't understand why that would even be questioned unless you've never experienced it (I've tasted it in other's homebrew).

Now I don't believe the hype that using a secondary will automatically result in an oxidized batch as I've seen some imply, but if you're sloppy with the transfer, sure.



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
Yooper said:
Well, a starter is never necessary- IF you have enough yeast cells. Most packages do not contain enough yeast for a 5 gallon batch of an OG greater than about 1.045. If you have more yeast (say, a slurry), no starter is necessary.

Racking, unless you move the beer under c02 in a closed environment, is always done. Racking to a new vessel in between the fermenter and the packaging is what others are calling "secondary". Why is a secondary useful? Why not ferment the beer, wait a couple of days for it to clear, and then package? That's what I do. Where is this "pile of dead yeast"? I suppose you mean the yeast cake/trub layer under the beer in the fermenter- but if you rack to a 'secondary', isn't there a pile of dead yeast there also? Or does it magically vanish?

Remember that autolysis is both temperature and pressure dependent. Although yeast cells are, like humans, dying from the moment they are "born", they don't die immediately after fermentation slows.
Click to expand...

"Isn't there a pile of dead yeast there also?"

Have you ever used a siphon?

Cheers
--Adam Selene
 
j1n said:
There is no need to do a secondary in most cases for home brewers. The beer isnt sitting on top of a bunch of dead yeast. Big breweries need to get the beer off the yeast cause they have massive tanks and the pressure produced by the high volume of beer will kill the yeast. This obviously isn't the case for home brewers since we do small batches, mostly 5 or 10 gallons.

The added benefit vs the added risk for doing a secondary isn't worth it.

Also the need for a yeast starter is in most cases is very necessary. And the volume of your starter depends on the gravity and volume of the wort you are fermenting. its not always a 1 liter starter.
Click to expand...

Really?

Adam Selene
 
Ok. So in the interest of not having another poisonous thread. Here is my constructive contribution:

Use a bucket with a spigot as a primary. (many of you already have this)
Gently purge the head space of the bucket with co2 when you can.
Drain the bucket as you dare.

You could use a keging system with the regulator set low to just gently flush out the top of an open fermenter, or you could vent another batch that is just newly pitched into the now "secondary". One bung to another, but keep the lid *loose* on the second bucket, or have a second airlock.

Cheers
--Adam Selene
 
Adam_Selene said:
That makes sense, let's have a good vigorus start, and then do our best to undermine that start by letting the beer sit on a pile of dead yeast, and whatever else might be sitting in there.
Click to expand...

There's nothing else sitting in there that hasn't been put in there.

Do you know how long it takes for a pile of yeast to die? You could let your beer sit on top of the yeast for a month, rack it and do another batch with the same slurry no problem.

How do you imagine that beer carbs up after sitting a few weeks in primary and a few more weeks in secondary before bottling? There is still plenty of alive yeast in there.
 
I ferment in a bucket with a spigot and drain it to a carboy when its ready.
I'm pretty lazy and its easier for me to clean out the primary fermentation mess from a bucket than clean my glass carboy. I haven't noticed any oxidation problems. Draining from the bucket also gives me an opportunity to check the gravity and do a taste test before I bottle.
There was a comment about a wife that "hates the hobby". All I can say is you should talk to her about it. Maybe she really doesn't hate brewing.
There's a good chance there's some other issue that's bothering her.
I'm divorced, so I can brew whenever I want, but I can't advocate trading divorce for the freedom to brew. Not trying to be preachy, just something to think about. Cheers!
 
Adam_Selene said:
Ok. So in the interest of not having another poisonous thread. Here is my constructive contribution:

Use a bucket with a spigot as a primary. (many of you already have this)
Gently purge the head space of the bucket with co2 when you can.
Drain the bucket as you dare.

You could use a keging system with the regulator set low to just gently flush out the top of an open fermenter, or you could vent another batch that is just newly pitched into the now "secondary". One bung to another, but keep the lid *loose* on the second bucket, or have a second airlock.

Cheers
--Adam Selene
Click to expand...

It just seems like a lot of work when I could literally "do nothing" instead. Not seeing the benefit yet--if there is no autolysis there is no benefit, correct?
 
madscientist451 said:
There was a comment about a wife that "hates the hobby". All I can say is you should talk to her about it. Maybe she really doesn't hate brewing.
There's a good chance there's some other issue that's bothering her.
I'm divorced, so I can brew whenever I want, but I can't advocate trading divorce for the freedom to brew. Not trying to be preachy, just something to think about. Cheers!
Click to expand...

She is just extremely cheap (maybe frugal is a nicer word?). She grew up really poor so she isn't used to being able to spend money. Also, she despises the smell of boiling wort and hops. I wasn't trying to portray her as a witch that never lets me do anything fun.
 
teach said:
Ah, the old oxidation bogeyman. Is fear of "oxidation" really still a thing?
Click to expand...

I'm going to echo Yooper, but yes many of the brews that I've judged have varying levels of oxidation. It's one of the more common off-flavors in competition.

I don't care if people use a secondary or not. I've found that there is no added benefit in my homebrewery for one so I don't use it anymore. There are tons of threads on this site where people tell others how exactly to brew - as long as you make good beer who cares how many vessels you used? I've never asked myself at a competition if the beer in front of me had a secondary or not.
 
Darwin18 said:
I'm going to echo Yooper, but yes many of the brews that I've judged have varying levels of oxidation. It's one of the more common off-flavors in competition.

I don't care if people use a secondary or not. I've found that there is no added benefit in my homebrewery for one so I don't use it anymore. There are tons of threads on this site where people tell others how exactly to brew - as long as you make good beer who cares how many vessels you used? I've never asked myself at a competition if the beer in front of me had a secondary or not.
Click to expand...

So is there any consensus as to whether the oxidation is caused by improper racking to secondary or bottling? And isn't the age of the batch one of the most important elements?
 
Adam_Selene said:
Really?

Adam Selene
Click to expand...

lol is that all you have to say?

If you noticed, a lot of us are saying the same thing. That's cause we don't just do things that are told to us. we actually understand why certain processes are done and why some are unnecessary.
 
Is there something magic that the beer can do in a secondary vessel that it can't do bottle conditioning on the shelf? If you are a bottler anyways aren't you just aging out fermentation off flavors to throw some sugar in the batch and have to age all over again?
 
Because I haven't brewed in 5+ years or so I just became aware of the "no secondary" revolution. I read a post about it on reddit that referenced John Palmer. Since then I've read a thread or two on here about it. No secondary sounds good to me. It will save me time, leave me more primaries, and eliminate more possibilities to oxidize or infect my beer. Now that I have kegs, I'll rack straight from the primary to the keg and then cold crash it. Brilliance! :) My recently brewed cream ale will go straight to the keg next weekend or maybe the next. Of course, it's all about experimentation and what works for you and your beer.
 

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