Stepping up Starter

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jesutton3

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I'm planning on brewing a Belgian Golden Strong with Wyeast 1388. I'm currently working on my starter and have some questions. I made a normal 1L starter Tuesday. Since my OG target is 1.088 and Mr. Malty suggests a roughly 2L starter what should I go with for my second step? I have plenty of extra light DME. How many oz of DME should I put into 1L of water?

The first starter was started Tuesday morning. If I crash the first starter overnight and pitch it in the second starter Thursday morning will I have enough time to brew Friday evening?
 
You'll need around 6oz of DME to do a 2 liter starter. What you'll want to do is crash the one as you stated. Mix your 6oz of DME into 2 liters (quarts if it's easier) and boil for 15 minutes. After you've cooled it, decant your original starter and pour the yeast cake into the new starter. OR, you can just make a 1L starter with a quart of water and 3 oz. of DME, then pour it in your current starter. Either method will work to give you a two liter starter. If you've got plenty of extract, go with the first method. It's a little more clean in my opinion.

You can toss the starter in if you brew friday night. It shouldn't be a problem.
 
Since I already have a 1L starter going can I make another 1L that's stronger than normal? Wouldn't that make a cumulative 2L starter?

Or does it not work that way?

If I can should I put 3 oz of DME in the new 1L or should I bump it up to 4 or 5 or 6 oz in the new 1L?
 
You'll need around 6oz of DME to do a 2 liter starter. What you'll want to do is crash the one as you stated. Mix your 6oz of DME into 2 liters (quarts if it's easier) and boil for 15 minutes. After you've cooled it, decant your original starter and pour the yeast cake into the new starter. OR, you can just make a 1L starter with a quart of water and 3 oz. of DME, then pour it in your current starter. Either method will work to give you a two liter starter. If you've got plenty of extract, go with the first method. It's a little more clean in my opinion.

You can toss the starter in if you brew friday night. It shouldn't be a problem.

I agree except that usually crash and decant the starter before pitching into the wort. I don't really want several liters of oxidized starter wort into my main brew. Especially something like a Belgian Golden Strong where there is not a lot to hide behind. if it were a stout or an IPA I'd just pitch the entire starter; but not with this style...:mug:
 
Since I already have a 1L starter going can I make another 1L that's stronger than normal? Wouldn't that make a cumulative 2L starter?

Or does it not work that way?

If I can should I put 3 oz of DME in the new 1L or should I bump it up to 4 or 5 or 6 oz in the new 1L?

You don't need to make a stronger starter. If you've already got one going, then you just need to toss another 3oz 1L (boiled of course) in there and stir it up gently. The problem is...once your first starter is finished, it's officially beer. By pouring something else into it, you risk oxydizing it. If you're careful, it shouldn't hurt too much. But, as said above, make sure you crash cool and decant your starter before pitching into your actual wort.
 
If I'm not mistaken, oxidation is not a concern with a starter as you're not really trying to make finished beer, but make as many yeast cells as possible. You actually want as much oxygen in the wort as possible.

What's funny is that I was going to ask this same question.

Mike
 
Here's a question: What if you only have a 1000ml erlynmeyer? If I were to make a 1L starter as I normally do, chill, decant, and then add more wort to bring it up to 1000ml again, would I essentially be creating the same amount of yeast as a 2L starter? I personally don't see why it wouldn't work this way, someone please tell me I'm crazy!
 
Here's a question: What if you only have a 1000ml erlynmeyer? If I were to make a 1L starter as I normally do, chill, decant, and then add more wort to bring it up to 1000ml again, would I essentially be creating the same amount of yeast as a 2L starter? I personally don't see why it wouldn't work this way, someone please tell me I'm crazy!

It sounds doable, but here would be my concern with this....

Let's say you've got 100 billion cells in your current starter. You decant and add 1L instead of 2. Now you've got 100 billion cells fighting for half the amount of food. I think they'd just work quicker, and not more productively. I'm not sure how to explain it since I'm no scientist. I suppose some experimentation is in order.
 
Below is an explanation of the method I use to step up starters when the flask volume is limited:

Assume I'm making an 11 gallon batch of 1.050 lager and I have 1 vial of White Labs yeast. Mr. Malty tells me I need:

Cells needed = 771 billion

To get 771 billion cells, Mr. Malty recommends pitching 2 vials into a 6.8L stirplate starter(SPS), or 3 vials into a 4L SPS, or 4 vials into a 2.75L SPS. My largest flask is 4L, so I'm limited to about 3-3.5L of starter. So, the only feasible option is pitching 4 vials into 2.75L. I only have 1 vial of yeast, so that doesn't help me BUT it does tell me that if I pitch 400 billion cells into a 2.75L starter, I will get my desired cell count. So, now I know I need to step my 1 vial up to 4 vials/400 billion cells.

To determine how to get 400 billion cells you just need to enter a theoretical batch that requires 400 billion cells. For example, Lager/1.050/5.7gal. It doesn't matter what you enter, the starter will be the same if the cells required is the same. Try Ale/1.090/6.6gal, the starter is identical. It recommends either 1 vials into a 3.7L SPS, or 2 vials into a 1.5L SPS.

The 3.7L volume is still a little too much for my flask, so I go through the same exercise again. I want to step up my 1 vial to 2 vials/200 billions cells. I enter Lager/1.050/2.9gal. Mr. Malty tells me I can get 200 billion cells with 1 vial in a 1L SPS.

So, this is what I do:

1.) Pitch 1 vial into 1 L for a yield of ~200 billion cells.
2.) Chill, decant.
3.) Add 1.5L of sterile wort to decanted yeast, yielding ~400 billion cells.
4.) Chill, decant.
5.) Add 2.75L of sterile wort to decanted yeast, yielding ~770 billion cells.
6.) Chill, decant.
7.) Pitch to 11 gallons of 1.050 wort.
 
Below is an explanation of the method I use to step up starters when the flask volume is limited:

Assume I'm making an 11 gallon batch of 1.050 lager and I have 1 vial of White Labs yeast. Mr. Malty tells me I need:

Cells needed = 771 billion

To get 771 billion cells, Mr. Malty recommends pitching 2 vials into a 6.8L stirplate starter(SPS), or 3 vials into a 4L SPS, or 4 vials into a 2.75L SPS. My largest flask is 4L, so I'm limited to about 3-3.5L of starter. So, the only feasible option is pitching 4 vials into 2.75L. I only have 1 vial of yeast, so that doesn't help me BUT it does tell me that if I pitch 400 billion cells into a 2.75L starter, I will get my desired cell count. So, now I know I need to step my 1 vial up to 4 vials/400 billion cells.

To determine how to get 400 billion cells you just need to enter a theoretical batch that requires 400 billion cells. For example, Lager/1.050/5.7gal. It doesn't matter what you enter, the starter will be the same if the cells required is the same. Try Ale/1.090/6.6gal, the starter is identical. It recommends either 1 vials into a 3.7L SPS, or 2 vials into a 1.5L SPS.

The 3.7L volume is still a little too much for my flask, so I go through the same exercise again. I want to step up my 1 vial to 2 vials/200 billions cells. I enter Lager/1.050/2.9gal. Mr. Malty tells me I can get 200 billion cells with 1 vial in a 1L SPS.

So, this is what I do:

1.) Pitch 1 vial into 1 L for a yield of ~200 billion cells.
2.) Chill, decant.
3.) Add 1.5L of sterile wort to decanted yeast, yielding ~400 billion cells.
4.) Chill, decant.
5.) Add 2.75L of sterile wort to decanted yeast, yielding ~770 billion cells.
6.) Chill, decant.
7.) Pitch to 11 gallons of 1.050 wort.

Clever. This seems like it would work. It's a timely post too as I am faced with the same issue tonight making a starter for Sunday. Thanks for the info. :mug:
 
Clever. This seems like it would work. It's a timely post too as I am faced with the same issue tonight making a starter for Sunday. Thanks for the info. :mug:

It is less work if you have mason jars of sterile 1040 wort. Much quicker than boiling up a starter every time. Something to consider.

Eric

Edit: I read "a lot of work" and you typed "this would work". Sorry, reading fail.

Eric
 
Clever. This seems like it would work. It's a timely post too as I am faced with the same issue tonight making a starter for Sunday. Thanks for the info. :mug:

No problem. Good luck with your brew! :mug:


It is less work if you have mason jars of sterile 1040 wort. Much quicker than boiling up a starter every time. Something to consider.

Eric

Edit: I read "a lot of work" and you typed "this would work". Sorry, reading fail.

Eric


Either way, canned wort RULZ.
 
Sorry to resurrect this older thread, but I had a question about timing. I understand the math involved to get to the number of cells you need for pitching, but how long do you let each step go on the stir plate before chilling? I assume you chill for 24 hours then decant and repitch onto fresh wort after that. Do you let the starter go 24 hours then chill or do you have to let it go 2-3 days? Thanks for the help.
 
Sorry to resurrect this older thread, but I had a question about timing. I understand the math involved to get to the number of cells you need for pitching, but how long do you let each step go on the stir plate before chilling? I assume you chill for 24 hours then decant and repitch onto fresh wort after that. Do you let the starter go 24 hours then chill or do you have to let it go 2-3 days? Thanks for the help.

According to Mr. Malty,

"...a starter made from an XL pack of yeast into 2 liters of wort will reach its maximum cell density within 12-18 hours. If you’re starting with a very small amount of yeast in a large starter, it can take 24 hours or more to reach maximum cell densities. For the average starter, let's just say that the bulk of the yeast growth is done by 12-18 hours."

Stepping up is a technique could be especially helpful if all you have is a 1000ml or 2000ml flask. I have a 2000ml and a 3000ml. But, to make it easier to use and boil, I really never do more than 1500ml in the 2000ml and 2500ml in the 3000ml.

Using a stir plate is also a great way to get more growth with yes wort. Compare the "simple starter" option to the "stir plate" option on the pitching rate calculator for a 1060 beer for example. For a simple starter, you'll need one vial and 2430ml. With a stir plate, you'll just need one vial and 1000ml. Big difference for an average to slightly above average beer. When you start putting in big gravities, you can see that it is pretty tough to make a starter without a stir plate or a very big flask.

Eric
 
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