Yeast starter/wort

I see all these people doing yeast starters with wort and I'm wondering where the hell they got the wort from? If I am doing all grain, I can't get the wort until after it's done boiling and ready to have the yeast pitched. Where is everyone getting this wort from (before their wort is boiled and ready to have any yeast pitched)? Do you/they save it from a previous batch? It seems very odd to me that someone would save some wort from an old batch to use as a yeast starter and seemingly have it sit in their fridge for two weeks where bacteria can get in to it. What's the deal? This has always been a mystery to me. Yes, I am a noob.

Just get some dry malt extract and boil it for 15 minutes to get a decent wort. Chill down to 70 and pitch your yeast.

PWalk said:

Just get some dry malt extract and boil it for 15 minutes to get a decent wort. Chill down to 70 and pitch your yeast.

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That seems like a pricey alternative to something that doesn't seem necessary at all (except for higher ABV beers). I don't plan on doing any partial mashes or extract brewing so it'd be another ingredient to buy, but I guess that answers my question about the mystery of the wort.

I use DME, but you can also mash some 2-row for a 1 gallon wort (target about 1.040 or so) and then use standard canning techniques to store for future use.

Every now and then, I make an extra gallon of wort when I'm brewing, and freeze it quart-size containers.

When I need a starter, I thaw and boil a wortsicle or two. No need for extract, just a bit of pre-planning.

DavidSteel said:

That seems like a pricey alternative to something that doesn't seem necessary at all (except for higher ABV beers).

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I think yeast starters are always necessary for liquid-based strains. I want to know that my yeast is viable before pitching.

Interesting. I don't really think that yeast starters are necessary, it just get the yeast ready. It's like foreplay before sex; preparation for a faster fermentation, but going straight in to it is practically the same thing. It just saves you a day of fermentation.

DavidSteel said:

Interesting. I don't really think that yeast starters are necessary, it just get the yeast ready. It's like foreplay before sex; preparation for a faster fermentation, but going straight in to it is practically the same thing. It just saves you a day of fermentation.

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And you don't want them ready? It serves to grow the sufficient amount of yeast for your fermentation. I suggest you check out http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html to see how much yeast you should be pitching.

DavidSteel said:

Interesting. I don't really think that yeast starters are necessary, it just get the yeast ready. It's like foreplay before sex; preparation for a faster fermentation, but going straight in to it is practically the same thing. It just saves you a day of fermentation.

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It propagates more yeast, its not really to get it active as you say.

Or, you can make a wort using the method this guy uses: a 1/4 cup of homemade yeast nutrient with a 1/2 cup of white table sugar per pint of water.

Pretty interesting, I think I will make some of that nutrient with my next secondary . . .

canning starter wort

grove said:

Or, you can make a wort using the method this guy uses: a 1/4 cup of homemade yeast nutrient with a 1/2 cup of white table sugar per pint of water.

Pretty interesting, I think I will make some of that nutrient with my next secondary . . .

canning starter wort

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I would never do that. It conditions the yeast to prefer simpler sugars and not maltose. May cause stuck fermentations as a result. You should use malt-based sugars for starter growth.

PseudoChef said:

I would never do that. It conditions the yeast to prefer simpler sugars and not maltose. May cause stuck fermentations as a result. You should use malt-based sugars for starter growth.

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feel free to post your comments in the original thread. it's the first time (in my very short hbt life) i've seen something like that suggested and i'm surprised at the lack of vitriol directed at the guy, like in the "no chill" and the "why dont we agitate" threads.

somehow I doubt the guy has been producing a bunch of 1.030 beers without knowing any better . . .

PseudoChef said:

And you don't want them ready? It serves to grow the sufficient amount of yeast for your fermentation. I suggest you check out http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html to see how much yeast you should be pitching.

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Thanks, I'll probably be making reference to this from now on

DavidSteel said:

Interesting. I don't really think that yeast starters are necessary, it just get the yeast ready. It's like foreplay before sex; preparation for a faster fermentation, but going straight in to it is practically the same thing. It just saves you a day of fermentation.

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They're not 'necessary' in the strictest sense of the term. The beer will certainly ferment without a starter, unless all of your yeast is completely dead. The point of a starter is to build up your cell count to the point where you are pitching roughly the same amount of yeast per gallon, per degree plato for each batch. This gives your beer consistency in yeast derived byproducts that arise from the division of the cells. If you pitch the same amount of yeast into a 1.040 beer and a 1.080 beer, the yeast in the 1.080 will have to divide much more and therefore will put off more esters, etc., giving the beer a different character.

There are many other nuances to it, many of which I still don't understand, but that's the long and short of it.

Learning new things. How long is it suggested to let a yeast starter ferment before pitching?

Yeast starters come in two varieties. Short term starters (say, less than 12 hours) are enough to proof the yeast/wake them up, get them ready to pitch--this will shorten the lag time in the beer, but you won't necessarily be giving them enough time to reproduce into more yeast cells. Longer term starters (say, 2 or more days) are needed for propogation, which is more necessary when you need a BIG pitch for a big beer.

Don't do a 2L starter in a few hours before pitching and expect to get the yeast growth necessary for a lager, for example--they need more time...

You don't need 2 or more days to get good yeast propagation in your starter, even a 2L one. Overnight is good enough. However, if you want the fermentation to pretty much run its course and cold crash the starter to get a lot of flocculation and sediment to leave in your starter vessel, you do need a few days, at least.

Some of the fastest beers I've ever had kick off were off of starters that only went over night (and some of those were 1.060ish beers). However, it's not always about lag time.


TL

I just brewed a Cream Stout last night, SG was 1.050. I made a 1L starter with 1 cup light DME and 1 full vial of White Labs WLP002 English Ale Yeast.

I made the starter at 4pm and it was ready to go when I woke up the next morning, though I didn't brew/pitch until later that evening. Fermentation took off like a rocket in only 4 hours, blow off tube is bubbling like crazy.

I think next time I'm going to experiment and only use half the White Labs vial in the 1L starter and save the second half in the vial for another time. Judging from how much slurry I got from the full vial I think I would be fine with only half for a moderate gravity beer.

Overall having a starter not only allows you to check the viability of your yeast, but it also reduces lag time

PseudoChef said:

I would never do that. It conditions the yeast to prefer simpler sugars and not maltose. May cause stuck fermentations as a result. You should use malt-based sugars for starter growth.

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You know, I see this anecdotal opinion a lot, but I have never seen the results of an actual experiment...has anyone actually shown this? As a geneticist/molecular biologist, this doesn't make much sense, yeast are very good at adapting to their environment.

ColoradoXJ13 said:

You know, I see this anecdotal opinion a lot, but I have never seen the results of an actual experiment...has anyone actually shown this? As a geneticist/molecular biologist, this doesn't make much sense, yeast are very good at adapting to their environment.

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I've heard it from some pretty reputable sources, but I too wonder how exaggerated this claim is. Is it even a factor on the homebrewing scale? Maybe it is, but I also haven't seen direct evidence.

I was wondering, If I was going to make a partial mash and I didn't have any spare DME, should I just use a cup of the DME that is suppose to go in the beer for the starter?

DavidSteel said:

I was wondering, If I was going to make a partial mash and I didn't have any spare DME, should I just use a cup of the DME that is suppose to go in the beer for the starter?

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Yes, that will work just fine assuming you pitch all of the starter into the cooled wort (some people decant off the starter "beer" and just pitch the slurry but I see no need to if you're following standard sanitation practices). You should get the exact same final gravity however the starting gravity could be slightly different because the starter wort is already fermented (though we're talking like 1 or 2 quarts out of about 5 gallons). Of course even if you decanted you'd just have a little lower final gravity.

I just keep some light DME on hand for starters and pitch the whole thing in, so technically I guess most of my brews have 1 cup more DME than the recipe calls for.

DrinkNoH2O said:

Yes, that will work just fine assuming you pitch all of the starter into the cooled wort (some people decant off the starter "beer" but I see no need to if you're following standard sanitation practices). You should get the exact same final gravity however the starting gravity could be slightly different because the starter wort is already fermented (though we're talking like 1 or 2 quarts out of about 5 gallons).

I just keep some light DME on hand for starters and pitch the whole thing in, so technically I guess most of my brews have 1 cup more DME than the recipe calls for.

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I just bought 2lbs of DME from BMW so I should be good now, thanks!