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TheMan

TheMan

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I crash cooled my beer, it's an APA. Do I need to bring it back up to room temp before I bottle? It's in a keezer right now and I was thinking I should take it out tonight and it would be room temp by tomorrow night for bottling. But, if I can just bottle it cold that works just fine. Advice?

Thank you!
 
I'd either consult a priming table, and prime accordingly, or let it warm back up.

Cold liquids "hold" onto co2 better than warm liquids, so when you bottle a cold liquid you reduce the priming sugar added, since there is already some residual carbonation in there.

If it were me, I'd let it warm up overnight (and let it settle after being moved) and then bottle it tomorrow.
 
Careful, When you crash cool the beer absorbs a lot of CO2. As it warms up it off-gasses, but don't expect it to be at its normal (for room temp) CO2 level once it reaches room temp. It can remain somewhat supersaturated. I did this with a beer once, primed for 2.5 volumes (about 3/4 cup dextrose), and it was wayyyyy overcarbed, gushers galore. When I crash cool I give it at least 24 hrs after reaching room temp to bottle.
 
I would warm it back up...like Yooper said, you have to use different amounts of sugar if your beer is at different temps....it is much easier to do it at "normal" room temp, which is really what the 4.5-5 ounces (or 2-2.5 volumes of co2) of priming sugar is calculated at...you can use a calculator or even most brewing software to tell you how much to use at which temp...but really, if you want it carbed "right" then let the beer warm back up...much less hassle that way.
 
Ok, I've moved it to its racking place. I won't need to move it before racking. My apartment gets plenty warm so I am sure it will get up to room temp easily by tomorrow morning even. Thanks for the advice.
 
I cold crashed a Kolsch. Everything good on the FG when it was cold crashed. We bottled cold, and it took like 7 weeks to even be close to proper carbonation levels. After that beer- I stopped cold crashing anything I bottled. I was under the inpression the the cold crashing put most of the yeast to sleep and thats why it took soooooooo loooong to carb properly..... Go get some kegs and dont worry about priming issues anymore! :D

:mug:
 
haha, I have kegs. And spare room in the keezer at the moment as well, but this is not one I want on tap. It takes me very long to kill a keg so I only keg beers that I KNOW are good. This is a first time for this recipe so if it turns out great and I brew it again it will go in a keg. In short:

Virgin recipes = bottle
 
Never had any problems with over carbing when bottling cold beer.
Maybe I have been lucky, I will keep doing it that way as I do not move my beer to a secondary and the crash cooling really settles the yeast so I dont end up with a pile on the bottom of every bottle.
AP
 
Bottling cold beer will lead to overcarbonation if you don't a) reduce your priming sugar or b) de-gas the cold beer somehow.

I bottled a pale and an amber cold... no gushers, but I have to drink them out of at least a 22 ounce glass to hold the foam...
 
Even Palmer's Carbonation Nomograph shows the affects of temp on carbonation and the amount of sugar needed at bottlig time based on temp. Like I said if you use the carbing feature on beersmith (and I assume other software) it always asks for the temp of the beer, in order to figure out the amount of sugar you need at bottling time.
f65.gif


Figure 65- Nomograph for determining more precise amounts of priming sugar. To use the nomograph, draw a line from the temperature of your beer through the Volumes of CO2 that you want, to the scale for sugar. The intersection of your line and the sugar scale gives the weight of either corn or cane sugar in ounces to be added to five gallons of beer to achieve the desired carbonation level.
Click to expand...
 
This isn't making any sense to me. I’d think that if you put the standard amount of priming sugar into chilled beer and then warmed the bottles to carbing pressure, you get the same carbonation level as if it were warm when added. I’d think that the yeast would eat that amount of sugar and produce the same amount of CO2 from it. That chart is wacked. According to it, if your beer is at 32 degrees when you bottle it, you don’t have to add any priming sugar to get 2 volumes.

Edit:
And I'd have to question how much CO2 stays in suspension in a non pressurized container. Ever leave a soda or beer in the fridge with the lid off?
 
I think I see the problem here. All the charts and information are assuming a certain amount of residual carbonation left over after fermentation. I think the temperature that they are referring to is the temperature that the wort was fermented at. If you had a lager at 48 degrees and then bottled at that temperature as compared to a Belgian fermented at 75 degrees and bottled at 75. Once fermentation is complete, I don’t think that you will put more CO2 in suspension just by chilling the beer.
 
AnOldUR said:
carbonation left over after I think the temperature that they are referring to is the temperature that the wort was fermented at. .
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Nope you're not the first one to be wrong about that...a lot of us, including me have gotten it wrong before...Palmer is saying the temperature of your beer. He did not say Temperature fermented at...that has no bearing whatsoever on how much co2 can be held.

Accurately Calculating Sugar Additions for Carbonation - German Brewing Techniques

Accurately calculating the carbonation is a great exercise for working with apparent and true (or real) attenuations as well as working with the extract % or Plato scale. The latter is not essential, but makes the calculations more intuitive.

The final carbonation of bottle conditioned beer depends on the CO2 present in the beer at bottling time and the CO2 that will be generated during bottle conditioning.

The amount of CO2 already in the beer can be determined based on the CO2 head-space pressure and the temperature of the beer. It can be determined by using Carbonation Tables. These tables show the equilibrium of CO2 content that exists for a given CO2 pressure and beer temperature.

The amount of CO>sub>2</sub> created by bottle conditioning is based on the amount of sugar that is fermented. Each gram of fermentable extract is fermented into equal parts (by weight) of alcohol and CO2 (this is not exactly true, but close enough for this calculation).
Click to expand...

The Burgundian Babble Belt -- Pushing the Homebrew Envelope


Re: Carbonation, sugar and time
Follow the calculators that are based on temperature. I usually take my keg out of the chiller the day before and let it warm up to room temperature for the next day's bottling and then I add a little more sugar because the keg does vent when I open it up.
Click to expand...

And there's a whole bunch of threads on here discussing it as well...including the one somewhere that I thought the same as you and had it cleared up.
 
YooperBrew said:
I'd either consult a priming table, and prime accordingly, or let it warm back up.

Cold liquids "hold" onto co2 better than warm liquids, so when you bottle a cold liquid you reduce the priming sugar added, since there is already some residual carbonation in there.

If it were me, I'd let it warm up overnight (and let it settle after being moved) and then bottle it tomorrow.
Click to expand...

AnOldUR, Yoop sums it up more clearly than anyone....
 
Revvy said:
AnOldUR, Yoop sums it up more clearly than anyone....
Click to expand...
I will agree with her, that "Cold liquids hold onto co2 better than warm liquids," but I having trouble with the idea that chilling a liquid will add co2. I think that the chart that you referenced is a base line of volumes after fermentation is complete. In a closed vessel like a keg, co2 will dissipate out of the liquid if you raise the temperature, and it will be reabsorbed if chilled back to it's original temperature. But in an open vessel, like a carboy with an airlock, it's gone forever. Chilling it will not increase the volumes of co2, but it will remain constant at what you started with.


Where's Mr Wizard when you need him. :D
 
Revvy, did you read more of the link that you referenced?

tankdeer
01/08/09 12:13 PM
Re: Carbonation, sugar and time
If fermentation was done when you cold crashed, then you should probably calculate based on your ferm temp. Ie, CO2 is no longer being produced by the yeast so there is no more CO2 to dissolve into solution when you chill it down.

Rob B
01/09/09 01:42 AM
Re: Carbonation, sugar and time
Yeah, I always use my fermentation temperature even if I cold crash and carbonation has been right on every time.
Click to expand...
 
AnOldUR said:
Revvy, did you read more of the link that you referenced?
Click to expand...

But I think those guys are as confused as I used to be, and you are now. :D


It doesn't make sense that it would be based on fermentation temp. That's really has little relevance to the beers ability to hold or not hold co2 a month later at bottling time. It shouldn't matter because if the beer changes temps (which it does) itlets go or absorbse more co2. Like when a fermenter suddenly starts releasing more co2 if it gets warmer or sucks in the sanitization solution out of the airlock if it gets cooler. If you have a two piece airlock you can see the co2 variable swing back and forth between the two chambers, and that has to be related to the temp of the fermenter.

Your beer is constantly moving and shifting temp....But at bottling time you need to know EXACTLY where your beer is at in terms of how much co2 it is going to be able to absorb THEN. At THAT moment you take a snapshot and determine the gravity of the beer and it's temp. And that's when you determine how much sugar you need...NOT the condition of the beer way back then.

Don't forget the beer is going to be carbonating at about the "room" temp the fluid is. SO it is even more logical that you would calculate the amount of co2 at that temp by letting the beer get to the ambient temp, and then bottling.

It intrinsically makes more sense to me that you calculate it based on the condition of the beer at the moment you are choosing to bottle it

Like I said, look at the other threads and you will see that the general consensus and most folks who carb to style using beersmith are calculating the temp of the beer at bottling time and figuring it out from there. If you have beersmith take a look at the part of the program that allows you to carb to style for each recipe....

I'm not going to debate it with you, because honestly, this hits the limit of my uderstanding of the science of this stuff :D.....maybe starting a thread in the science section and have the Kais and the other eggheads (and I am paying them a compliment) over there can tell you what is right. Like I said, I thought your way, but I was convinced by others, and it seems to make more sense to me this way...and therefore that is what I do.....and it's worked for me perfectly.
 
Revvy said:
It doesn't make sense that it would be based on fermentation temp. That's really has little relevance to the beers ability to hold or not hold co2 a month later at bottling time.
Click to expand...
The temperature of the beer at the end of fermentation determines the amount of co2 that is in suspension at that time. In a carboy with an airlock it will stay that way unless you apply heat, in which case it will off gas through the airlock.

Revvy said:
It shouldn't matter because if the beer changes temps (which it does) it lets go or absorbs more co2.
Click to expand...
Sure, it will release co2 through the airlock, but it won&#8217;t absorb co2 unless it is applied under pressure.

Revvy said:
. . . or sucks in the sanitization solution out of the airlock if it gets cooler. If you have a two piece airlock you can see the co2 variable swing back and forth between the two chambers, and that has to be related to the temp of the fermenter
Click to expand...
You&#8217;re confusing thermal expansion and contraction with co2 absorption and release.


I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with letting your beer warm up after cold crashing, but that if you don't, it won't change the amount of priming sugar needed. To get to the proper carbonation you add the residual co2 to what can be potentially produced by priming. The residual amount doesn&#8217;t raise just because you lowered the temperature after fermentation is complete. Lowering the beer temperature increases its potential to absorb co2, but without applying co2 under pressure it won&#8217;t change the volumes in suspension.

According to your interpretation of the chart I would be able to put a glass of my .8 volumes 68 degree post fermented beer in the refrigerator, chill it to 30 degrees and it will magically be carbonated to 1.7 volumes and be ready to drink the next morning. :p

volumes chart.jpg
 
Phew. I find this thread fascinating but it's making my head hurt :eek:. I have a brew that I intend to cold crash and bottle next week (my first time to cold crash), so I am keen to figure out what I need to do. I'm no scientist, so somebody actually qualified to talk about this can call BS on any or all of the following...

I think I find myself agreeing with AnOldUR. I can understand that during fermentation the beer absorbs CO2 while our yeastie friends are releasing it throughout the liquid, with the amount of CO2 retained dependent on the temperature. To me, this seems comparable to using a stone to add oxygen to the wort before fermentation. But when the beer is chilled from (say) 64 to 36, the only CO2 for the beer to absorb is in the headspace of the fermenter, and under no extra pressure. I can see that a very small amount will be absorbed at surface of the beer, but I can't understand how the body of the beer will absorb anything. This sounds like trying to aerate a wort by leaving it in a bucket and hoping oxygen will become absorbed on it's own. Just because the liquid has the capacity to absorb more CO2 doesn't mean it actually does - it needs CO2 around to do so and there isn't any outside of the headspace. During a cold crash I would expect to see the airlock react to thermal contraction, but that's all. Similarly, as the beer is warmed back up to room temp I would expect the opposite action in the airlock but very little CO2 to be released until the temperature rose above the level of fermentation, where the beer reaches the point it is holding more CO2 than it is capable of at that temp. But that will only be at the final few degrees of the warming process, assuming a fermentation temp in the mid 60s and a room temp around 70 (approx 0.2 atmospheres, according to the chart AnOldUR posted).

I think Yooper's original suggestion to allow the beer to warm up to bottling temperature is a wise one, because it neatly sidesteps all these arguments and dodgy scientific ponderings. In the end it doesn't matter if we believe that chilling and then warming the beer back up causes the beer to (a) absorb about an atmosphere of CO2 and then release it again, or (b) retain roughly the same amount of CO2 throughout. Either way will work because they arrive at the same point at bottling and priming sugar calculation time, so that's what I think I'm going to do.

I'm going to lie down now :D
 
IanP said:
I'm no scientist, so somebody actually qualified to talk about this can call BS on any or all of the following...
Click to expand...
I agree. Everything I've said comes from either experience or logic (possibly misguided.) It would be good to hear from someone with the proper background who has facts that are backed up by science. So far this conversation has been speculation and layman interpretation.

The only reason I would bottle (or keg) while the beer is still chilled it that it may keep the material that dropped out during the cold crash and compacted at the bottom of the carboy from becoming more soluble and returning back into suspension. But I can't see this being a big problem.
 
Have fun in your agreement guys...I'm going to side with the folks that convinced me, and continue to be successful using it the way I have been.

Like I said, I'm not a science wonk, and all that stuff you posited and posted, just went over my head :D...I tend to work on instinct, and I'm sure you've noticed my brewing instinct, tends to be right in most cases...and like I said, I use beersmith style carbonation stuff and I input the temp at BOTTLING TIME..and in over a year of using beersmith (closer to two) and doing it that way, I have never had a beer either over or under carbed.....no flats or no gushers from using this method...

For example I am drinking my beautiful saison that was carbed to 3.5 volumes of co2 using the software the way I usually do, and adding quite a lot more sugar that the normal 5 ounces of sugar (I had to dump my copy of beersmith that is on my work computer today since I'm getting a new work comp and will have to re-install it and the beersmith backup copy is on a stick at work so I can't tell you how many ounces but it was iirc around 6.5 or 7 ounces of sugar) and I calculated it at the temp of the beer, and the carbonation is spot on...and no bottle bombs so I didn't f- it up to bad. :D

Again, my suggestion is get this out of general techniques where only you me and the new guy are paying any attention, and start a thread in the science section and get Kai, and the other brain trust in on it....But get them to try to speak common English when they figure it out, so folks like me can understand.

But until it is something other than your logic -vs- my instinct, I am still going to suggest to people to bring their beer up to room temp and then calculating the the sugar needed.

:mug:
 
But until it is something other than your logic -vs- my instinct, I am still going to suggest to people to bring their beer up to room temp and then calculating the the sugar needed.
Click to expand...

This is actually the conclusion I reached anyway (see the paragraph endorsing Yooper's suggestion of bringing the beer up to room temp), although I understand anyone losing the thread/interest by that point :D. I was struggling myself...

Besides the scientific guessing game, I totally accept Revvy's wider point about the value of relying on your own instinct, and learning from the results. I've learned a huge amount from many of Revvy's posts on here and have no reason to question his qualifications as a successful brewer of longstanding. My post was simply me trying to figure this stuff out for myself. I'm just a bloody engineer who wants to understand why. It's a PITA sometimes, it really is...

And, yeah, this probably belongs in the dark corners of the science section as Revvy keeps pointing out.
 
TheMan said:
. . . Do I need to bring it back up to room temp before I bottle?
Click to expand...
Here's my problem with this thread. The OP asked a simple straight forward question. The concensus of the replies that came back were like telling someone with a bottling question that they should be kegging.

Yeah, I'm done with this thread too. Moving the question to the Brew Science may get some answers.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/effects-cold-crashing-priming-sugar-needs-134347/#post1514613
 
I've always used the highest temp the beer has been after fermentation and I've bottled enough to know it works out well. I've bottled beers at 35F and used 75F priming. It works. I add T-58 and it still carbs in under one week.
 
I just posted this on the science thread.

I went to the horse's mouth...I knew you guys are all over complicating things still...It occurred to me, that since I use Beersmith to figure it out, I should look at the beersmith help for THEIR definition of "Beer Temp."

AND I WAS RIGHT, Y'ALL!!!!! And I betcha if we emailed, Palmer, and asked him directly what HE means, he would say the same thing.

So here it is DIRECTLY from the instructions on my beersmith software.

Beersmith said:
Beer Temp - The temperature of the beer. For bottled beers, this is the temperature at bottling (usually room temperature). For kegged beers, this is the temperature at which the beer will be force carbonated, which may be either room temperature or refrigerator temperature depending on your keg setup.
Click to expand...

Not at fermentation, not at the highest temp, not at the coldest temp , not at the conjunction of the planets.....At the time I sit down and bottle!

FTW!
peace.gif
Click to expand...

So, if you crash cool it and don't let it warm back up, then all you need to do is take a temp reading of the beer and calculate the amount of sugar (usually lesser) for the cold beer.

So going back to Palmer's Nomograph

f65.gif


Figure 65- Nomograph for determining more precise amounts of priming sugar. To use the nomograph, draw a line from the temperature of your beer through the Volumes of CO2 that you want, to the scale for sugar. The intersection of your line and the sugar scale gives the weight of either corn or cane sugar in ounces to be added to five gallons of beer to achieve the desired carbonation level.
Click to expand...

For example, if if I crashed cooled and just took it out and my beer is NOW at 35 degrees, and I want 2.5 volumes of co2, Palmer says I need about 2 ounces of priming sugar.

On the other hand my 70 degree beer needs 4 ounces of sugar to get to 2.5 volumes.
 
Conroe said:
I think he is wrong too. If there is more CO2 in it at 32F than when I bulk aged it at 75 where did the CO2 come from?
Click to expand...

I really don't care, my friend, if people think that Palmer or Brad of Beersmith is wrong...I only care that my interpretation of it is correct. Like I said earlier, it's worked for me, no undercarbed or bottle bombs.
 
To me it's just like saying that serving a beer at 32F will be more carbonated than serving the same beer at 55F. Where did the extra CO2 come from? :confused:
I know this came up in BYO and it agreed with me. It's come up on other forums and the answer is usually the same as well.

It would also meen that my George Schwarz was carbed to 3.2 volumes and not the 2.4 it felt like.
 
Conroe said:
I think he is wrong too. If there is more CO2 in it at 32F than when I bulk aged it at 75 where did the CO2 come from?
Click to expand...

Well, that's the kicker. It isn't there. Unless the CO2 was under pressure, or unless it fermented some more, there is no more CO2 in solution than there was just before crash cooling.

To be honest, I never even thought of this problem until today. I always just put 3/4 cup sugar in by bottling bucket and called it good. I never had a problem with Carb level, but I also never crash cooled my wort until after I got a keg set up.

But now I will have to start filling bottled again if I want to make more beer. My kegs are filling up. For me, I'll go by the highest temp the beer was at before crashing. It just makes sense that that is the highest level of residual carbonation possible without either pressure or fermentation.
 

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