Why use concentrate?

I often see people suggest using concentrate when back sweetening. Is it okay to use the same kind of juice I initially started with or do I need to specifically use concentrate for some reason?

Mostly it's a volume issue....

Less concentrate (volume) needed to backsweeten...

For me... I like concentrate because good quality concentrate usually brings a very intense apple flavor and aroma with it.... Sugar just brings sweet - and it doesn't taste like apple....

Figure 1 volume of concentrate = 3 or 4 volumes of juice (Depending on the concentrate)... so adding 1 cup of expensive organic concentrate is the equivalent of adding 1 qt of juice....

Thanks

Anybody using concentrate instead of bottling sugar...or does it just bring way too much sugar into it? (I am going to use Champagne bottles and I would really like Champagne like carbonation levels)

Thanks

HW

how you introduce sugar does not matter, the amount matters!
read through this thread,
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/priming-apple-juice-30797/
there are estimates of how much sugar is likely to be in your concentrate. you can always estimate the sugar percentage of your concentrate by diluting it and checking gravity then calculating back the undiluted amount. you of course want to calculate sugar addition for the high range of CO2; i don't know what is typical for champagne, >4 volumes? man you're gonna have some gushers

I would like avoid the gushers, I prefer to drink Champagne as opposed to decorating with it

What will cause gushers, surely not just the carbonation levels otherwise wouldn't all Champagne be "gushers"?

Thanks

HW

nickdanger0479 said:

I often see people suggest using concentrate when back sweetening. Is it okay to use the same kind of juice I initially started with or do I need to specifically use concentrate for some reason?

Click to expand...

Nick - I assume you may have used fresh cider to start?

I back sweeten my finest "reserve" champagne styled cider backsweetened with half thawed fresh cider - this makes the best tasting cider by a landslide (not just my opinion, everyone who drinks it prefers it). It makes the cider that people think cider should taste like, robust apple, but not like apple juice. I usually don't have enough freezer space to do more than 15-20 gallons of cider (7-10 gallons) in this concentrated manner.

I just cold crash the carboy for 24 hours, rack it into sorbate and sulphites and add the concentrated fresh pressed cider to taste. I think the last batch I did was at 1.014-16 after additions (about 5 half thawed 2 qt. cider jugs to 2.5 gallons of hard cider at 13-14%) and I added a touch of malic acid ending in a PH of 3.4. I should note that the PH was after a malolactic fermentation, so while the PH was 3.4, it didn't taste like a typical 3.4 PH because lactic acid doesn't taste as sour as malic does. If you add malic acid straight to get to 3.4, it has quite a zing, likely too much. i.e. add malic acid to taste.

See - now that's an interesting idea.... Make cider out of home made juice concentrate....

I *Really* like the intensity of flavor that comes from fermenting concentrated juice.... I can imagine that the cider made from 50% concentrated fresh squeezed juice is all that much better.... Then, back blending it with a fresh squeezed frozen concentrate would just make it that much more wonderful...

This is on my list for next year.

Thanks

CidahMastah said:

Nick - I assume you may have used fresh cider to start?

I back sweeten my finest "reserve" champagne styled cider backsweetened with half thawed fresh cider - this makes the best tasting cider by a landslide (not just my opinion, everyone who drinks it prefers it). It makes the cider that people think cider should taste like, robust apple, but not like apple juice. I usually don't have enough freezer space to do more than 15-20 gallons of cider (7-10 gallons) in this concentrated manner.

I just cold crash the carboy for 24 hours, rack it into sorbate and sulphites and add the concentrated fresh pressed cider to taste. I think the last batch I did was at 1.014-16 after additions (about 5 half thawed 2 qt. cider jugs to 2.5 gallons of hard cider at 13-14%) and I added a touch of malic acid ending in a PH of 3.4. I should note that the PH was after a malolactic fermentation, so while the PH was 3.4, it didn't taste like a typical 3.4 PH because lactic acid doesn't taste as sour as malic does. If you add malic acid straight to get to 3.4, it has quite a zing, likely too much. i.e. add malic acid to taste.

Click to expand...

Sounds wonderful, I assume you force carb? How "Champagne" like does it end up, from what I recall, force carbed Champagne's have much bigger bubbles compared to the fine bubbles of bottle carbonated Champagne?

Cheers!

HW

You are right - you have to force carb to have this work and keep the sweetness.

I have heard that too (small bubbles), but you know what, it comes out really really good. If you overcarb it somewhat, it acts like a champagne (tons of bubbles), and the cider flavoring + malic acid gives it more of that spumante kind of taste, you know, a little sweet but tart, and nice body. The body part is tough to get with the apple juice concentrates.

The other aspect of bubbles is, I am so used to drinking force carbonated stuff (we all are) that the rare times I buy champange I would notice, however I am quite happy with force carbonated bubbles. There are very few producers who do the in bottle fermentation anymore.

You could probably use store bought apple cider to achieve a similar flavoring, but there is something about the fresh, probably just the uniqueness of the apple selection in the press, that really stands out.

If you don't use a touch of malic acid, it tastes less like champagne, more like sparkling alcoholic cider.

I also think your cider should be in the 13-14 percent ABV range - if it is less, it doesn't taste as much like a champagne, more like a cider.


I was going to try riddling this year, but ended up not doing it. This stuff turns out really good, and I was running low on frozen fresh cider. I usually pick my two best wines and bottle whatever I can as champagne from them. Likely I will only get 4-5 cases of champagne this year.

I didn't start thinking about making cider early enough to get any fresh pressed juice...but next year...

This is my first go around on a cider, I actually made EdWorts Apfelwein (using Kirkland brand 100% apple juice) but as I don't have a kegging setup decided I would bottle carb it instead. I too was planning on using "Method Champenoise", I even found a site with a walk through some folks did with some beer, but in the end decided it was way too much effort for my first attempt. I'll figure out the exact recipe I like and then take another look.

Ideally I would like to make something with a noticeable apple taste, just off-dry, with a Champagne like carbonation level, any advice you can offer would be most welcome, especially using store bought apple juice as that is all I have access to until fall comes around again

Have you considered concentrating your juice when you buy it rather than when you use it...that way you could carry 2x the volume each year

Cheers

HW

Good call on the concentrate first. the tough part with that is, I press it all by hand, about 200 gallons each year, invite friends over and get free labor (do about 100+ gals hard). I could load up the freezer and get ~50 concentrations, that is a great idea if I plan the timing right. So simple yet I missed it! Thanks

I get about 80 bushels from a local orchard (4 types) and press them. Then I have some mature trees in my yard that are my "estate" reserve ha!

It would be kinda expensive, but if you got store bought cider, like the fresh in the store decent kind, I bet a 50% freeze concentration would taste way better than just apple juice concentrate. But you would need a keg to force carb - you should consider getting a simple kegging setup, then bottle. A kegging setup is invaluable to a cider maker (or beer maker). You can do if for ~$100 I believe.

See I can get apples all year because I buy them wholesale, but you won't catch me outside pressing in the winter! haha no sir! that is the time for drinking cider

The champagne I make has an off dry flavor, due to the high booze I think, and the malic acid additions. Regarding the carbonation, I think you would be pleasantly surprised with forced carbing options. That said, one of these years I will try the old school styling.

you may want to try using an ale yeast (nottingham or similar)

I think many cider makers would stand by this statement though. Fantastic cider starts with your apples (i.e. fresh cider is the way to go).

Fresh cider allows for a malolactic fermentation, which for me, is the key to a good stable cider.

I would love to get a kegging setup but until I can convince SWMBO that I can reliably make something drinkable, it's a hard sell...especially as I don't have a second fridge or freezer I can use for crashing/storing/serving either

In the meantime I guess I am stuck with either still and sweetened, or carbonated and dry

Cheers

HW

HappyWino said:

I too was planning on using "Method Champenoise", I even found a site with a walk through some folks did with some beer, but in the end decided it was way too much effort for my first attempt. I'll figure out the exact recipe I like and then take another look.

HW

Click to expand...

Could you provide me with a link to this site. I started what I'm hoping will be "Apple Champagne" on December 28th. It has fermented to dry and is 14% ABV. It's currently sitting in secondary for another month and then I plan to backsweeten and bottle carbonate and then pasteurize it (using Pappers method described in the sticky) to produce a semi-sweet carbonated "champagne".
I'm curious to read up on this "Method Champenoise" as I suspect its similar to what I have planned and could use any pointers the site provides.

Sure, here you go;

http://maltosefalcons.com/tech/methode-champenoise-beer

I am getting a DNS error on it right now but I think that is a problem on my network, not with the site.

I found it a really interesting read, seems like saline and salt wasn't working that well for them but they found an alternative that did.

Cheers

HW

you will want to get the champagne bottles with the crown capping design. Basically you crown cap for the first aging carbing part, then when you come to sediment purging you freeze the heads, pop the cap and out comes the sediment plug. Then you top off with another opened bottle and recap using the push in plastic champagne stoppers with wires. I have heard ice water or dry ice to make the sediment plugs

CidahMastah said:

Nick - I assume you may have used fresh cider to start?

I back sweeten my finest "reserve" champagne styled cider backsweetened with half thawed fresh cider - this makes the best tasting cider by a landslide (not just my opinion, everyone who drinks it prefers it). It makes the cider that people think cider should taste like, robust apple, but not like apple juice. I usually don't have enough freezer space to do more than 15-20 gallons of cider (7-10 gallons) in this concentrated manner.

I just cold crash the carboy for 24 hours, rack it into sorbate and sulphites and add the concentrated fresh pressed cider to taste. I think the last batch I did was at 1.014-16 after additions (about 5 half thawed 2 qt. cider jugs to 2.5 gallons of hard cider at 13-14%) and I added a touch of malic acid ending in a PH of 3.4. I should note that the PH was after a malolactic fermentation, so while the PH was 3.4, it didn't taste like a typical 3.4 PH because lactic acid doesn't taste as sour as malic does. If you add malic acid straight to get to 3.4, it has quite a zing, likely too much. i.e. add malic acid to taste.

Click to expand...

Just to make sure I'm with you - half thawed cider would mean a large portion would be ice and your pour the remaining liquid, which I'm assuming is a very sugary juice?

As of now, I'm using store bought juice (past. & no pres.), due to fresh cider being damn near impossible to find in Texas. I think it'll get close to the same results, but we'll see... I'm aiming for an ABV around 6-8% and a taste profile similar to Strongbow...lame as it may be, I think it tastes good.

Thanks for your help!

Nick

nickdanger0479 said:

Just to make sure I'm with you - half thawed cider would mean a large portion would be ice and your pour the remaining liquid, which I'm assuming is a very sugary juice?

As of now, I'm using store bought juice (past. & no pres.), due to fresh cider being damn near impossible to find in Texas. I think it'll get close to the same results, but we'll see... I'm aiming for an ABV around 6-8% and a taste profile similar to Strongbow...lame as it may be, I think it tastes good.

Thanks for your help!

Nick

Click to expand...

Exactly - the half thawed cider is basically a homemade fresh cider concentrate (concetrated sugar and apple cider flavor, less water). It helps to raise the overall sugar to back sweeten the batch, with adding less volume.

If you made your cider a little stronger (10-12%) when you backsweeten like the above, you will end up reducing the ABV to you target range. I think if you do this with store bought cider you will likely get something that tastes like strongbow. I like the green apple tart, which is why I usually add a little malic acid. From my recollection, strongbow doesn't have a lot of tart, so you may want to skip malic acid.

Do you have a formula or estimate for how much concentrate per gallon for back sweetening? I'm sure I could mess around with it to figure it out but I lack patience.

CidahMastah said:

If you made your cider a little stronger (10-12%) when you backsweeten like the above, you will end up reducing the ABV to you target range.

Click to expand...

Doh!

That solves a puzzle I have been struggling with quite nicely...how to make an off dry cider, using an ale yeast (S04 is the favorite at the moment), that is in the 8% range Never occurred to me that I could add enough liquid to dilute back to the desired alcohol level! I imagine I will be constrained somewhat by how much the dilution affects the taste but I can play that by ear, if it is "appley" enough imbibers probably won't notice the heat from the alcohol much anyway

I don't suppose you have a formula handy that I can use to figure out how vol to add to get to the 8% from x% do you?

Cheers

HW

HappyWino said:

Doh!

I don't suppose you have a formula handy that I can use to figure out how vol to add to get to the 8% from x% do you?

Cheers

HW

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure my math is right:

x volume/ ABV = amount of pure alcohol
ABV = pure alcohol/ total volume
to solve for volume, volume = alcohol/ ABV

For Example:
5 gallons @ 12% ABV wanting to backsweeten to 8%
5/.12 = .600 gallons of pure alcohol
volume = .600/.08 = 7.5 gallons total volume - 5 gallons cider = add 2.5 gallons juice

HappyWino said:

Doh!

That solves a puzzle I have been struggling with quite nicely...how to make an off dry cider, using an ale yeast (S04 is the favorite at the moment), that is in the 8% range Never occurred to me that I could add enough liquid to dilute back to the desired alcohol level! I imagine I will be constrained somewhat by how much the dilution affects the taste but I can play that by ear, if it is "appley" enough imbibers probably won't notice the heat from the alcohol much anyway

I don't suppose you have a formula handy that I can use to figure out how vol to add to get to the 8% from x% do you?

Cheers

HW

Click to expand...

Haha - funny how sometimes the plain and obvious just totally escapes us right?

I do want to speak from a addition perspective. I made an amber woodchuck clone from about 3.25 gallons of 9+ % cider and added 1.75 of concentrate and water. I was scared the dillution would ruin it.... I was shocked, it tasted better than woodchuck, especially after I added a small amount of malic acid. That really gave it the green appley zing that woodchuck doesn't have. The acid also balanced the sugar to an acceptable level for me, now I love it.

Also - add your concentrate first, then top with water. I think to bring the sugar up to 1.029 (I thought was a little too sweet) it took about 8 cans of frozen apple juice concentrate (for the woodchuck clone). That is a significant volume addition, so in effect, I didn't have a lot of straight water addition.

They beat me to the formula, but now you have it! Better than the way I did it. I set it up in proportions. I was shooting for a 6-7% ABV. I will say this, one of the nice things about my 13-14ABV champagne is the warming of the alcohol. People really respond and expect that in an off dry champagne styled beverage. Champagne at low ABV isn't good champagne, IMO

One more note, I am going to be working on a "man hooch" when I attack another demijohn. A cider with an abv of 9 percent, dry styled. The lady wants me to try a lemon styled cider for the summer too. With the tool kit of the concentration and kegs, you can really make some interesting styles, suited for SWMBO or the gents as well.

Double-checking my thought process - take SG reading, ferment, rack into secondary & ferment more, cold crash or campden tablets, FG reading, sweeten to taste and/or desired ABV? Gravity reading is irrelevant after yeast is take out of the picture, correct?

nickdanger0479 said:

Double-checking my thought process - take SG reading, ferment, rack into secondary & ferment more, cold crash or campden tablets, FG reading, sweeten to taste and/or desired ABV? Gravity reading is irrelevant after yeast is take out of the picture, correct?

Click to expand...

Don't move your cider to secondary before its done fermenting as moving it will remove it from much of the yeast and slow or stall fermentation. If you're doing a standard gravity cider of 6-8% ABV you'll be fine to just let it sit in your primary until it is done fermenting. For cider this is usually around a FG of .998-1.000. Gravity readings will not get you a correct ABV once yeast has been stalled and backsweetening has occured, I think thats what you meant.

So your process should be:
1. Fill primary with recipe: juice, sugar (if using), yeast
2. Take OG reading
3. Allow to ferment until FG of around 1.000
4. Rack to secondary leaving excess yeast behind, add yeast stalling agent and cold crash.
5. Backsweeten to desired ABV and taste, if shooting for a certain ABV use the calculation I mentioned above.

Hopefully someone else will chime in on the ideal yeast stalling method I'm not sure whether its campden, potassium sulphite or some other combination.

Awesome! Muchas gracias!

Veinman said:

So your process should be:
1. Fill primary with recipe: juice, sugar (if using), yeast
2. Take OG reading
3. Allow to ferment until FG of around 1.000
4. Rack to secondary leaving excess yeast behind, add yeast stalling agent and cold crash.
5. Backsweeten to desired ABV and taste, if shooting for a certain ABV use the calculation I mentioned above.

Hopefully someone else will chime in on the ideal yeast stalling method I'm not sure whether its campden, potassium sulphite or some other combination.

Click to expand...

I would change this to:
1. Fill primary with recipe: juice, sugar (if using), yeast
2. Take OG reading
3. Allow to ferment until FG of around 1.000 or 3-4 weeks, whichever comes first
4. Rack to secondary leaving excess yeast behind, (top off with juice or water and let it ferment out to 1.000 or .098
5. Cold crash 24 hours, rack off inot bucket and add sulphites (camden) and sorbate.
5. Backsweeten to desired ABV and taste, if shooting for a certain ABV use the calculation I mentioned above.

The whole reason you cold crash is to get the yeast out of suspension and so you reduce the amount of available yeast to a minimal portion. If you add cambden first and then cold crash, your reduce the effect of the camden as compared to what it would be if you have cold crashed first.

once you reach a gravity reading of .098 - 1.000 gravity is pretty much irrelevant. There are no fermentable sugars left.

CidahMastah said:

I would change this to:
1. Fill primary with recipe: juice, sugar (if using), yeast
2. Take OG reading
3. Allow to ferment until FG of around 1.000 or 3-4 weeks, whichever comes first
4. Rack to secondary leaving excess yeast behind, (top off with juice or water and let it ferment out to 1.000 or .098
5. Cold crash 24 hours, rack off inot bucket and add sulphites (camden) and sorbate.
5. Backsweeten to desired ABV and taste, if shooting for a certain ABV use the calculation I mentioned above.

The whole reason you cold crash is to get the yeast out of suspension and so you reduce the amount of available yeast to a minimal portion. If you add cambden first and then cold crash, your reduce the effect of the camden as compared to what it would be if you have cold crashed first.

once you reach a gravity reading of .098 - 1.000 gravity is pretty much irrelevant. There are no fermentable sugars left.

Click to expand...

After the initial fermentation reaching 1.000, what's the purpose of adding additional sugars for fermentation? Is it to raise the ABV or to top off to prevent oxidizing the cider...or both? If that's the case, in order to get an accurate reading, would I take another gravity reading and add that to the initial gravity reading?

nickdanger0479 said:

After the initial fermentation reaching 1.000, what's the purpose of adding additional sugars for fermentation? Is it to raise the ABV or to top off to prevent oxidizing the cider...or both? If that's the case, in order to get an accurate reading, would I take another gravity reading and add that to the initial gravity reading?

Click to expand...

To prevent oxidizing the cider.

You can use water, but I always think that using cider is better to top off. It the cider world, aging is a good thing, so I always found that topping off and adding a little more cider doesn't hurt the process, it has a second light ferment and and it forces you to wait a bit longer before you touch it.

Between, I wait 3-6 months before I bottle (could be repeating this). So after this racking, you can leave it to bulk age for as long as you like before you bottle.

If you add water, you would decrease your ABV, if you add cider, you likely will maintain your ABV. If you were working with a 15 gallon demi john this would certainly impact your abv (I leave head space and end up adding about 1+ gallon to top off after the first racking in my demijohns). Since the volume is so much for this scenario, I add sugar to teh cider (matching the O.G.) and when it ferments it will match my ABV before I top off. In your case, it probably is less important, although it does have an impact.

My case being a future cider master! Hah!

When do you add your malic acid?

Also, I see on some bottles' ingredients, they add carbonated water. I would assume there's more to it than blending carbonated water into a batch. Any experiences with that?

Ha - here is to that!

I add the malic acid just before bottling in the bucket or keg. Give it time to meld in - 15-20 minutes- restir, taste. Go slow with the additions. If your cider had a malo ferment you might need to add a bit more, but most of the times, if I am going for a wine I need like a table spoon ish for 5 gals. For a woodchuck clone cider it is a little more, due to the sweet needing to be balanced by the tart.

The carbonated water thing I am not sure about. I always assumed that they carbed it after the fact. Must be a commercial process I am not familiar with it. If I tried to add carbed water to the cider, I am sure that it would be a foaming mess

They may make an extra-strong cider and then dilute it back to their target %abv with carbonated water.... It's probably an easy way to do it.

Thanks

truckjohn said:

They may make an extra-strong cider and then dilute it back to their target %abv with carbonated water.... It's probably an easy way to do it.

Thanks

Click to expand...

I understand the dillution. I wonder if adding carbonated water would carbonate the cider? Seems like the water would lose all carbonation as you blended it.