20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

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I made up a double batch of the #5 tonight. I just doubled all the quantities.

Is the additional water additions just supposed to bring it down to around 240 or is the extra volume necessary? It took almost 2 hours for this double batch and if it just has to drop to 240 after the water addition it would cut out some time. The first addition of 2 cups dropped the temp to 225 and the second addition dropped to 230.

With the first addition I just dumped it all in while stirring and didn't even watch the temp, but with the 2nd addition I added the water slowly and watched the temp. At about 1.5 cups of water it was at 240 and then the extra 1/2 cup dropped it to 230

I collected 2 quart jars full. I stuck them on a scale before filling to get accurate weights. 1 jar is 2lbs 8oz and the other that has a bit less in it is at 2lbs 5oz

I reserved a bit of the syrup for a test. In a 1L flask I have 450ml of liquid that is at 14.8brix (1.059) with some WLP530 slurry. I've got it on my stir plate to get it to ferment as quick as possible. As soon as it ferments out I'll check the gravity to see how fermentable the syrup is.
 
Here's a pic of the color stages.

IMG_2100.jpg

worth a thousand words this one
 
I reserved a bit of the syrup for a test. In a 1L flask I have 450ml of liquid that is at 14.8brix (1.059) with some WLP530 slurry. I've got it on my stir plate to get it to ferment as quick as possible. As soon as it ferments out I'll check the gravity to see how fermentable the syrup is.

I checked the gravity today and it hadn't dropped at all. In case the slurry I had sitting around was bad/dead I pitched half a packet of SafAle04 in there. That should be plenty of cells to ferment 450ml of wort. I'll report back in a day or so.

This troubles me a bit though, I just used some of the same syrup in a batch and if it doesn't ferment at all it's not going to be very tasty.
 
I checked the gravity today and it hadn't dropped at all. In case the slurry I had sitting around was bad/dead I pitched half a packet of SafAle04 in there. That should be plenty of cells to ferment 450ml of wort. I'll report back in a day or so.

This troubles me a bit though, I just used some of the same syrup in a batch and if it doesn't ferment at all it's not going to be very tasty.

Your problem may be that the yeast doesn't have sufficient nutrients, not that the sugar is unfermentable. Barley provides lots of additional minerals that simple sugars don't contain. Try adding some yeast nutrient if you don't see activity soon.
 
Your problem may be that the yeast doesn't have sufficient nutrients, not that the sugar is unfermentable. Barley provides lots of additional minerals that simple sugars don't contain. Try adding some yeast nutrient if you don't see activity soon.

Good point. Though how many people make hooch with just sugar water and yeast? I'll add a dash of nutrient later if I don't see anything going on
 
I'd say its pretty much fully fermentable. I just used 2 pounds of this stuff (mine was somewhere between 270-280) in a tripel that started at 1.085. Its currently in the secondary sitting around 1.007
 
Good point. Though how many people make hooch with just sugar water and yeast? I'll add a dash of nutrient later if I don't see anything going on

After checking there definitely is something happening now. Maybe my slurry was dead or I didn't add enough or something. I added about a tablespoon which should have been plenty for 450ml of "wort"

I'll check the gravity tomorrow and report back
 
I checked the gravity today and it hadn't dropped at all. In case the slurry I had sitting around was bad/dead I pitched half a packet of SafAle04 in there. That should be plenty of cells to ferment 450ml of wort. I'll report back in a day or so.

After my non start with my WLP530 slurry the SafAle04 seems to have done its job.

450 ml of 1.059 fermented down to 1.011
beersmith says thats 80.5% apparent attenuation

:mug:

I suspect the yeast is done, but since I don't need my stir plate right away I'll just let it go and see if it goes any further
 
Wow. It is great to see that this thread is still going strong. After I posted it I had a switch in jobs, a couple weddings, a new puppy and generally a lot of life get in my way of brewing. so I have only got to use my syrup in a few test batches. I would be interested in hearing how some of the beers are turning out for you brewers that used it. All my test batches turned out tasty, but they were not what you would call a proper beer.
 
SnickASaurusRex
I am watching this thread with great interest as I'm just now finishing Brew Like A Monk and have a Westvleteren 12 Group Brew & Swap going on. One of the key secrets of making this fabled beer is obviously the sugar, how they make it and how much to add.
Have you ever tried any of Dark Candi Syrup Inc's product and done a comparison with your #5 or 300F to see what the flavors are like? The dark/burnt chocolate flavors and color (38 SRM) in Westy12 have to come from the sugar, because without the sugar the recipe is at a mere 5 SRM.
I'm interested in seeing what you think one could do to get the perfect super dark (100 SRM or 120 SRM would help a lot) to get some of the burnt chocolate flavors and the dark color. Maybe a #5 with a 295f step?
 
I have tried there products, but not side by side with mine. I can tell you they are similar, but there are small differences. My syrups have a tartness to them, like caramelized figs and dried fruits. This flavor is similar to some of the nicer single origin dark chocolates that I have tried, but it lacks that quintessential coco flavor.

There is an issue with the Sugar #5 recipe. It is not a problem, rather it is something to keep in mind. Every time you bring the sugar solution up to its top temp its max temp will lower for the next round of cooking. This means that the smoke point will lower each time.

Have you tried my Sugar #5. It is good and it is Belgium-ie. I would suggest trying the syrup as it is cheap to make and it will give you some insight to the process.

I have a Sugar #6 that I want to try, but have not gotten around to. What I want to do is cook it three times. The first time I want to cook it to 300F then render it to a syrup at 240F and let it cool. On the second cooking I want to bring it to 290F, again render to a syrup at 240F and let it cool. Then do it one more time to 280F render to syrup and let cool. I do not know if this will be a success or a big bomb. I plan to try it some time soon. If you have the sugar and time you might try a process like this. It will defiantly be dark and fragrant. This would destroy a lot of the fermentability of the product, but It might also be delicious.
 
I made a batch of the medium amber last night, and have a question about bringing it back up to softball after adding the water. Is it absolutely necessary to bring it back up to softball, or are all of the flavors already there once you've cooled it? I ask because it would make it FAR easier to add to the fermenter/kettle if it were a bit more liquid.

I know it would result in adding additional water to the beer, but I can see a time when that may be acceptable.
 
I did #5 today, hit all the temps accurately on medium-high heat with my trusty candi thermometer. However, it seemed to have come out like the 270 light amber when I spread it on some wax paper. In the jar it looks like medium amber. I thought this would be more along the lines of a darky syrup 290-300ish. I'll have to give the 300 a go and see if that's better.
 
I don't think that bringing it back to softball is necessary if it is going into the kettle shortly after, but for any kind of storage it would add shelf-life to the product by reducing the water content.
 
So after being frustrated with the colors and lack of complexity in the flavors that were with the original schedules I created a modified #5 version that proved to give me pretty much what I wanted. This not only gives me the shelf stability of the #5 but also the complexity that I felt was more along the lines a extra dark candi syrup. Be aware that this takes a good chunk of time to do, I think total time I spent working on a batch was 1.5 hours. But you can store without worry of crystalization ;) so make a big batch. I can only assume this is very similar to the "Dark 2 Belgian Candi Syrup" I've seen online. I get a nice mix of roasted oak, dark chocolate, and fruity flavors.

Extra Dark Belgian Syrup:

2 lbs Sugar (beet or cane)
2 cups of water
3 teaspoons of DAP
Bring temperature up to 310F
Add 2 cups of water
Bring temperature up to 290F
Add 1 cup of water (should leave you around 220-230F after mixed)
Bring temperature to 240F
Flameout

Here are some pics:

IMG_0665.jpg


IMG_0668.jpg
 
I made Sam Calagiones A to Z brown ale today with the Deep Amber Syrup. It was easy to make and tasted incredible!

I'll post back when the beer is done.
 
Do you guys recommend buying a throwaway pot when making candi syrup like this? Whats your total weight at the end of adding 2lbs of sugar? More or less 2lbs?
 
No need for another pot, it cleans up really easy afterwards. And although I haven't weighed it, it will be more than two pounds, there some water in the final syrup that will add to the weight. It does end up making almost exactly one quart though. I know because I store it in one quart mason jars.
 
Do you guys recommend buying a throwaway pot when making candi syrup like this? Whats your total weight at the end of adding 2lbs of sugar? More or less 2lbs?

I made a double batch and split it between two quart jars. The weight of just the syrup was 2.5lbs and 2.3lbs
 
Rex,
this is obviously a hit, thanks for introducing the idea. I'm definately going to check out RADICAL BREWING. I'm wondering if you have any other cool beer/brew related reading to suggest. Thanks :mug:
 
Snickasaurusrex,

I was just on the Dark Candi inc. site and I noticed that there is a difference between the dark and dark 2 products that they sell. For all of their candi syrups except Dark 2 they state under the description "Candi syrup is a liquid obtained as a by-product of the candi sugar production". We already know this, and they state that they do this by boiling the sugar and then centrifuging off the solid sugar crystals leaving the syrup. However, the Dark 2 product has a completely different description which reads "Sugar syrup obtained from repeated heating and cooling of beet sugar". No where does it mention centrifuging or removing the sugar crystals.

So perhaps the Sugar #5 that you describe is more closely replicating the Dark 2 product. Like you mentioned it is allowing more of the available sucrose to be converted by undergoing the maillard reaction twice. Thereby allowing more concentrated flavors. Maybe the main reason they remove the sugar crystals is to add shelf life to prevent crystalization which you state doesn't happen with the Sugar #5 recipe.

Just thought I would share this tidbit of info that I found on their website and my interpretation of what it means. I love this thread because I really think it goes to show that a product like this can be replicated just like cloning beer itself. Awesome job!
 
I know your recipes are for syrup, but if I was interested in making hard candy would I just leave out the second water addition? Or as my brain slowly works through this, I wonder if it is possible to get to hard crack stage while doing the Maillard processes? Am I crazy for even thinking about making hard candy?

Terje
 
What would be your reason for making the candy rather than the syrup? From what I understand the temp you take it up to after adding the water determines what the sugar will turn into after cooling. This is the reason for the hard crack temperature I believe.
 
I don't have any jars in the house right now, and was feeling a bit lazy about driving to buy some. :eek: Also, with the issue of shelf stability, I was thinking that solid crystals should be more stable. Probably a bad idea all around, as the temp makes the color/flavour with the Maillard compounds. If it was only invert sugar, just raising the temp to hard crack wouldn't get significant color or flavour change.

Off I go to Wally World. :D

Terje
 
Out of all the folks that have tried making this, what's the best beer recipe in which to use it? English brown? Belgian dubbel?

I made a batch of the 290*F syrup last night. I definitely taste plums, raisins, figs, etc. Color is a bit darker (like the 300*F) even though the flavors came out like your 290*F.
 
i used the 280*F in a Tripel I brewed a couple months ago and just bottled last week. Its still young and a little hot on the alcohol, but so far all signs point to awesome.
 
I made a test batch tonight. I made the #5 sugar and hit all the temps according to my thermometer. I have tested this thermometer and it is accurate at both boiling temps and ice water. However, the candi syrup came out the blackest of blacks. I was under the impression that the #5 sugar would be slightly darker than the 290F deep amber but not jet black.

Regardless, it tasted great and very much like strong raisins with a bitter sweet chocolate and toast flavor. Like Snickasaurausrex said it tasted a lot like very dark chocolate which has that bittersweet flavor to it.

I'll be making a total of 3-4 pounds of this for a Westvleteren 12 clone and hopefully it adds the color and flavor complexity I'm looking for. Thanks for doing all the hard work!
 
I bought a candi thermometer which seems to work better than a regular thermometer for this. Also you should be heating on medium heat, to high of a heat and it'll scorch real quick. I did the 290F and wasn't pleased with the results, I made a variation of it that goes up to 310F for my westveletern 12. Here's my variation.
 
It was on a very low heat and took about an hour and 10 minutes to make the #5 sugar. I am happy with how it turned out but wasn't sure what color it should be. My thermometer is a lab grade digital and I'm rather sure it's accurate at 290F but who knows. I can look for a candy thermometer at the Wally Mart. If it's under $8 or so maybe I'll get it.
 
Out of all the folks that have tried making this, what's the best beer recipe in which to use it? English brown? Belgian dubbel?

I made a batch of the 290*F syrup last night. I definitely taste plums, raisins, figs, etc. Color is a bit darker (like the 300*F) even though the flavors came out like your 290*F.

I made a Westvleteren clone with syrup using these techniques and at only 6 weeks old it is one of the best beers that I have ever made.
 
Noob question here (mt first HBT post!). I just attempted to make the #5 for a Westvleteren 12 clone I'm brewing tomorrow, and I'm not really sure if I was successful, it's very black...

Do these recipes use ordanary cane sugar or are you guys using beet sugar of some sort?

Thanks for all the info, this site has taught me a lot.
 
These recipes are with regular sucrose (Domino) sugar. The same stuff you use to make an apple pie with. I made the #5 sugar as well and it is very dark (black), much like the 300F sugar #4. I made a batch of this and a medium amber #4 sugar for a Westy 12 clone that I brewed today.

Both had a great taste and I'm thinking they will add a lot of character to the beer. As a side note the #4 sugar was very hard to work with during the brewing and I would suggest heating it up slightly before you work with it to add it to the brew kettle.

Welcome to HBT!
 
I wanted to thank you Snickasaurasrex for doing all this work and making it possible for me to make a Belgian with this stuff. I seemed to work great and I hit my starting gravity on the nose. I'm looking forward to drinking a 9.63% abv beauty.
 
I made some of the "sugar #5". I'm not very happy with it though. It turned out very bitter. After the first time it reached 290º, it was really good. It had a very distinct raisin flavor, with only a slight bitterness. The second time I brought it to 290º, the raisin flavor had mostly gone away and was mostly replaced with bitterness. I didn't heat it again. I think I'll redo it but only heat it once.


Edit: I made a second batch, and only heated to 290 one time. It is very good. Not bitter. I'm putting it in a dubbel next weekend.
sugar5.jpg
 
Chase-

I got the exact same results you did!

For my second try I heated to 290, cooled, then brought it back to about 260 and killed the heat. It kept for a week with no signs of crystalization. I too made a Dubbel this past weekend and the wort smelled and tasted devine. Wort color is a beautiful deep amber with only pale/pils malts used. I used the syrup at 15%. WLP530 is happily munching away as we speak...

I think I'll save the first one I made for a stout as it does have a nice toffee/coffee essence to it.

Thanks again to Snick for the excellent research and write-up!
 
Just an update to this. A few months back i made a batch that looks like it came in somewhere between the 270-280F in the picture above. The Tripel i used this candi syrup in took second place in the strong ale category with an average score of 38 in a recent contest i entered.

A couple fellow homebrewers who tasted this said they can pick up hints of vanilla and caramel, which would have to come from the syrup, since the rest of the recipe was just pilsner malt, saaz hops, and a touch of coriander.

Overall i am very pleased with the beer. Its only about 5 months old now, so i can't wait to see how the flavors continue to develop. Thanks again to SnickASaurusRex for the write up!
 
This is really a fascinating thread!

2 questions:

- If I make my syrup on brewday, can I just pour the correct amount into the boil so I don't have to cool it down/store it?

- Can I half all the ingredients to make less (I'll only need @ a pound)?
 
1. I'm not sure if you could add it hot. I'm no candy maker but perhaps cooling it changes it somehow..... not sure. I would guess it would be fine but this is only a guess. If it is ok to do this it would be quite a bit easier as the syrup is very hard to handle once it's cold.

On another note make sure you at least do this with some buffer time built in as it can take awhile. If I were doing it on top of brewing I would be rather distracted and very short on time.

2. I changed the recipes to make smaller quantities. It seemed to work just fine.
 
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