New cider experiments; need advice/comments

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Jakobrau

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Sweet! I'll be getting my hands on some more apple juice soon from a local farm. It's unpasteurized and freshly squeezed.

Here are the batches I did previously:

6 gallons unpasteurized AJ + 1.2kg dextrose using Lalvin 1116
6 gallons unpasteurized AJ + 1.2kg dextrose using Lalvin 1118

Primary'd 2 months. It turned out good, very clear, but it's too dry and too tart for my tastebuds. Also, I find the first sip to be somewhat offputting. I'm not too good at descriptions, but I suppose it's a sulfury tartness? After a few sips I can eventually see past it. My friends don't seem to mind it.

So, for round #2 I picked up 3kg of honey (goldenrod) straight from a local apiary. Not really sure why, but I like experimentation. Label says it's unpasteurized - is that ok?

CvillKevin's excellent sticky has convinced me to go the ale yeast route this time. New plan:

6 gallons unpasteurized AJ + 1.5kg honey using Safale S-04
6 gallons unpasteurized AJ + 1.5kg honey, undecided for other yeast. Nottingham? Thoughts?

If the unpasteurized honey is a problem I was thinking of maybe boiling it in a bit of apple juice, and stirring that into the remaining unpasteurized juice. Otherwise I'll probably just heat it as CvillKevin suggested to soften it up a bit so I can actually stir it in.

My objectives are less tartness mostly and less dryness if possible. I don't have the means to cold crash nor do I want to halt fermentation (I like to carb my bottles). I want to keep this simple, I plan to primary again for at least 1-2 months then straight to bottle/keg.

Am I on the right track by switching the dextrose for honey and wine/champagne yeast for ale yeast?

Thanks!
 
Sounds good to me. Just throw in the honey, don't bother to heat it. The yeast can work on it as they go.

Question: Did you like the taste of the honey before you bought it?
 
Nottingham and 04 are very similar. If you like one you will probably like the other. I would try a sweet mead yeast. If you do like the Notty /04 you can compare them on your next batch. If you don't like the notty you would probably wouldn't like the 04. It seems like you would be wasting two batches. I hope this makes sense.
 
i would sugest useing US-04 and US-05 they are simlar but vastly differnt in there own ways and i think you would like the idea of doing the comparison... Im guessing you not useing Camp tabs on any of these??? they are unpasturized... i was just curious... I would also sugest back sweetening when your done if you didnt like the taste of dry cider... Its not surprising becasue you used such agressive wine yeast...

Cheers
 
I love the quick replies I always get from HBT :)

Sounds good to me. Just throw in the honey, don't bother to heat it. The yeast can work on it as they go.

That's good to know. I think I might soak the container in some warm water still to soften it up... or microwave it I suppose.

Question: Did you like the taste of the honey before you bought it?

Haven't tried it yet, the container is still sealed! I bought goldenrod mostly because it was on sale and the lady said it had a fairly mild flavor. They have 14 kinds on hand! Which are your favorites?

Nottingham and 04 are very similar.

Yes that does make sense. My ale experiments have thought me that S04 and Notty are somewhat interchangeable...

So ya, sounds like I'd be making the same recipe twice basically. Here's the list of yeasts from my LHBS's website, althought they don't necessarily have them all in stock at all times. Any suggestions?

DRIED ALE YEAST: Danstar Nottingham yeast (11 g), price: $2.00.
Coopers yeast (7 g), price: $1.20. DCL Safale S-04, Safale US-05, Safale T-58 and Saflager S-23 11.5g, price: $2.75.

LIQUID YEAST - ALE & LAGER (50 ml yeast culture): WYEAST Brewers Choice yeast. Most varieties are available in the store. Price: $8.50 for Propagator and $10.50 for Activator.
 
i would sugest useing US-04 and US-05 they are simlar but vastly differnt in there own ways and i think you would like the idea of doing the comparison... Im guessing you not useing Camp tabs on any of these??? they are unpasturized... i was just curious... I would also sugest back sweetening when your done if you didnt like the taste of dry cider... Its not surprising becasue you used such agressive wine yeast...
Cheers

Care to hazard a guess as to what differences I should notice between the 04 and 05? I've never done a direct comparison of the two when making ales, yet.

I split a recipe in half once and did 04/Notty. I was straining to find a difference...

No Camp tabs. I love carbonation too much.. I have no problems with sweetening upon serving, but actually most of my friends seemed to quite enjoy the dryness. Everything store bought is so sweet!
 
I agree that Notty and S04 are fairly similar. Of the two, I prefer S04 for cysers. I just started my first cyser with US05 a couple of days ago, so I cant say how it works with honey, but it works great with just juice or juice plus sugar. For ciders, the US05 has a flavor that is very distinct - smooth, not as fruity and tart as the S04, with more of an ale like finish.

After you add the honey, put a stopper in the carboy and roll it around on the floor for a while until the honey is completely dissolved. Even with warming the honey it takes a while to dissolve.
 
Thanks for weighing in, Kevin.

Ok well experiment day is fast approaching. I got back from the farm late last night and you can't imagine how relieved I was to learn that it could all fit in my fridge:

IMG_1510.jpg

So I think I'm going to go with S04 and S05.

I will have so much leftover that I could probably attempt a 3rd batch, but more probably I'll try to concoct an apple beer. Anyone try that? The recipe database surprisingly doesn't seem to have anything of the sort.

Sounds like it should work, though :D
 
Nottingham and 04 are very similar. If you like one you will probably like the other. I would try a sweet mead yeast. If you do like the Notty /04 you can compare them on your next batch. If you don't like the notty you would probably wouldn't like the 04. It seems like you would be wasting two batches. I hope this makes sense.

+1 Wyeast sweet mead yeast is awesome for ciders. leaves some residual sweetness and apple flavor
 
The 4184 is growing on me. I bumped the SG to 1.060, which might not have been high enough. I crashed mine at 1.002 but it started up again and went to 1.000. For about two months it was really raw tasting but its getting nice now. Still not as good as the US05 IMHO, but it is getting better while the US05 is a little past its peak. I dont think you can go wrong either way. What kind of apples are in the juice?
 
What kind of apples are in the juice?

I have no clue honestly. He told me it was a "blend" of a few kinds, I didn't think to ask for specifics. It was quite sweet compared to the juice I got back a few months ago so it definitely looks promising.

It and about 3lbs of honey have been fermenting for some 17 days now. I checked just this morning and the airlock's still going :)

Hey Jakobrau, I'm from Montreal too and was wondering what farm you went for the AJ? I want to try making EdWort's Apfelwein :D
TNX!

Hi Memorex sorry for the late reply. It's a farm in Hemmingford. I don't feel comfortable giving names or phone #s on a public board without his permission as his number was given to me by a mutual acquaintance.

Plus, he's out. However, he's supposed to call me back in a month or two when he presses his next batch. If you want, I can ask him if he'd like to have more customers sent his way and I'll PM you his # at that point.
 
Hi Memorex sorry for the late reply. It's a farm in Hemmingford. I don't feel comfortable giving names or phone #s on a public board without his permission as his number was given to me by a mutual acquaintance.

Plus, he's out. However, he's supposed to call me back in a month or two when he presses his next batch. If you want, I can ask him if he'd like to have more customers sent his way and I'll PM you his # at that point.

I was hoping you had a closer place than an hour's drive. That's ok, I'll get some pure apple juice from IGA or something and make a gallon of it.
 
I was hoping you had a closer place than an hour's drive. That's ok, I'll get some pure apple juice from IGA or something and make a gallon of it.

I don't know what area you live in, but in the fall I go to Quinn's Farm on Ile Perot. Great people, and they'll let you fill up your own containers in the back. Came out to about 1$/L. You're out of luck for that until the next season however.

If it's your first batch and you're only making a gallon of it, ya get the President's Choice unfiltered stuff it makes great apfelwein.
 
I don't know what area you live in, but in the fall I go to Quinn's Farm on Ile Perot. Great people, and they'll let you fill up your own containers in the back. Came out to about 1$/L. You're out of luck for that until the next season however.

If it's your first batch and you're only making a gallon of it, ya get the President's Choice unfiltered stuff it makes great apfelwein.

I'm in Lachine and Quinn Farms sounds pretty good. I usually go to Les Vergers Blair in Franklin Centre but it's gotten so BIG that there's just too many people. I'm looking for a smaller mom's and pop's orchard.... they have to eat too!

Yes it's my first batch and I'll do the President's Choice unfiltered apfelwein. :tank:
 
I'll allow myself the thread necromancy since I'm the original poster :)

I see a lot of 1st timers posting questions that I also had when I first started out making apfelwein, so I thought I'd post an update with my findings.

For reference, last time I made apfelwein I used dextrose instead of honey and wine/champagne yeast instead of ale yeast. They came out very dry (to my taste). I've also made other smaller experiments, always with those yeasts.

I never intended this give this cider this much time to age, but life got in the way recently and I was unable to attend to it for some time. Obviously this can only be a good thing. According to my logs, I pitched my yeast on Jan 11th. 84 days later on April 5th, I decided to rack to secondary. 35 days later (yesterday), I bottled. Judging from the trace amount of sediments left in the carboy, a secondary phase wasn't really required.

Batch A: 1.33kg goldenrod honey and AJ up to the 6 gallon mark. Safale S-05 OG: 1.062 FG:0.994 ABV: ~9.2%
Batch B: 1.33kg goldenrod honey and AJ up to the 6 gallon mark. Safale S-04 OG: 1.062 FG:0.996 ABV: ~8.9%

I bottled batch B first. My initial impression was that off the bat it's much sweeter than my first attempts, a definite plus. Still a tarty aftertaste, but overall quite pleased with the results. I was concerned by the FG reading that it would be too dry, and although you wouldn't mistake it for a sweet commercial cider, there's definitely a pleasant sweetness when compared to the wine yeast ciders.

Then batch A. WOW. This one's even better! Far less tartyness, and more sweetness still. This one's definitely my favorite. I'll reserve final judgement for after it's carbonated, but I think this one would definitely please those who would swear by commercial sweet apple cider. Talk about a great mother's day gift :)

To those who are looking for that elusive sweetness and don't want to cold crash or otherwise kill the yeast, I highly suggest Safale S-05. I'm definitely an ale yeast convert and will be using it in my other wines as well.

Ale yeast seems to take a lot more time to ferment the mixture than wine/champagne yeast which is very aggressive. Then again, that may be the honey that took longer to "chew on"? It took well over a month before it clarified acceptably. After some 4 months now, my cider is extremely clear with a beautiful yellow color.

I decided to "overcarb" this batch as I love bubbles. A highly carbonated apfelwein makes for a very impressive looking drink. 2 cups of dextrose per batch should give me a finished product that looks somewhat like sprite :)

Thanks again to Kevin and the others for steering me in the right direction.
 
How are you bottling? If you're using crown caps, I'd be really careful... they're not strong enough to hold back that much carbonation.
 
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