Oktoberfestbier (lager) from Brouwerij Boerderij Kabouter

Alright- tear me a new one and give me your opinions on this O-fest. There is surprisingly little on this site about actual Oktoberfest lagers on this site and I would like a good discussion.

October fest Octoberfest (for the benefit of those searching later)



Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 13.82 gal
Estimated OG: 1.063 SG
Estimated Color: 9.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 21.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 78.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Looks tasty but a little big. At least based on the BJCP Style guidelines. These beers are meant to be consumed in quantity. Going from 1.063 to 1.015 might be a a tad on the high side. Looks damn tasty though.

To me, that looks like a great beer. The rich malty character from the Munich & Vienna ought to be fantastic. I think the W34/70 is probably pretty good if you're committed to a dry yeast (certainly better than S-23). Personally, I'd lobe either the WL833 (bock yeast) or the Wyeast Bavarian (2206). Those are both yeasts I love for imparting a rich character to the beer that would be great in an Octoberfest.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Looks tasty but a little big. At least based on the BJCP Style guidelines. These beers are meant to be consumed in quantity. Going from 1.063 to 1.015 might be a a tad on the high side. Looks damn tasty though.

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SpanishCastle is right -- this is within 1 pt of being a bock (1.064). It is a high SG for an Octoberfest.

I was a bit worried about the size as well. I was hoping it would finish a bit higher at around 17 points, but I usually get great attenuation so maybe that isn't likely. I will be doing a deco though, so hopefully that will help me keep some long chains in tact.

Maybe I will drop it down a couple points, or just make the volume bigger....

I have just started using dry yeast for the first time and so far I am pretty happy. I like not having to make a starter, but this beer is definitely pushing my limits for what a dry yeast can be used for.

Honestly, I would use a liquid yeast, but I am expecting my first child any day now and this is getting brewed on a triple AG brew day with two of those being deco mash schedules and all of that is happening with me watching a 1.5 week old little girl. Ambitious? Yes. But I will have lots of help.

I didn't see you were doing a decoction. That will be a long brewday!

I brewed my Marzen (same thing) using the liquid version of that yeast (Wyeast 2124) and mine finished a tad high @ 1.016 (from 1.061...mine was too big too). I was trying to naturally carb it in a keg (one of my earliest attempts at that) and I think that affected the high-ish FG. I'm carbing it now and will steal a pour soon but I'm expecting it to be a little too sweet. I did a decoction on that one.

EDIT: and congrats on the little girl!

I wouldn't put the Hersbrucker in a 90 min. boil at the 90 min mark. I'd wait until after hot break... so maybe 60 or 75 min.

I haven't studied up on Oktoberfests too much (Helles on the other hand...), but are all those grain types necessary? Most German beers tend to be simple in the grist department.

The second step temp seems a little low... the beer might dry out too much since some saccharification is occuring at the 133 step. You might consider 156-158°F.

I hope I don't sound too critical. Those are just some thoughts. You could brew that beer as-is and I would drink it in a heartbeat.

Great stuff guys. There is no way you can be too critical.

Most of the recipes I have seen use these or some variation of these malts. I doubt they are all necessary, but it seems to be the norm and I haven't found enough information to get creative on my own. I should listen to JZ's podcast again, but I am a bit busy now

I was planning on putting the Hers' in after the break, so maybe I should move that to a later addition... good call, else I will end up with like a 110 minute boil.

The main Sacc rest temperature is a bit tricky. I want this to be a big rich O-fest to be a nice counter to the Helles it will be served next to, but I want to be able to drink it by the Maß. I agree 153 may be a bit low, but I fear that if I raise it to 156+ I will be left with a too chewy fest bier and it won't be as popular.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

The main Sacc rest temperature is a bit tricky. I want this to be a big rich O-fest to be a nice counter to the Helles it will be served next to, but I want to be able to drink it by the Maß. I agree 153 may be a bit low, but I fear that if I raise it to 156+ I will be left with a too chewy fest bier and it won't be as popular.

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Good point... and with the decoction, you'll still get plenty of dextrins in there. I'd be interested to know your % attenuation on this if you do decide to stick with 153°F.

Well, a guinea pig I shall be. I will report back.

menschmaschine said:

are all those grain types necessary? Most German beers tend to be simple in the grist department.

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I have seen many Oktoberfest beers that have 4 or 5 types of grain in them. Adds complexity and richness, and you can get some very unique :cross: beers by trying different combinations and amounts of grain.

I too am formulating an Oktoberfest recipe, but I cannot for the life of me wrap my head around decoction mashing. I have read the wikis & posts, and watched a couple youtube videos, but I just don't get it. I need the decoc mashing for dummies book.

Anyone have a super simple explanation of a decoc mash?

Go to braukaiser.com and watch his videos. That is the best explanation I have seen.

I have seen many Oktoberfest beers that have 4 or 5 types of grain in them. Adds complexity and richness, and you can get some very unique beers by trying different combinations and amounts of grain.

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I think what menschmachine was getting at was that the 'real' versions are generally made with a fairly simple grain bill. But that doesn't mean homebrewers have to do that. Some folks like to get as close as possible (flavor and color) with base grain and use minimal specialty grains while others like to just use 2-row plus a bunch of specialty grains to get there. Both ways can make fantastic beer.

I actually thought this grain bill was fairly simple but it looks more complex than it really is because there are three different base grains. But it's almost 100% base grain. I guess I just always consider the base grain(s) as the base...whether it's just 100% Pils or 33% each of 3 different ones (like this O-fest)...I still just consider it 'the base'. So looking at it like that, this recipe is: 23.5# base grain + 1# specialty grain...pretty simple.

If you want a step-by-step decoction that works pretty well PM me and I'll send you one I've been doing recently...but it would just be a starting point...you'd have to try it and tweek it for your rig. This one leaves the mash @ acid rest temp and has no protein rest.

I agree with Spanish. I do not like using specialty grains. I don't know why, but I feel like simplicity is a key to truly great beer and specialty grains should only be used for small tweeks or to get a small defining characteristic to set your beer apart a bit.

This recipe is 96% base grain, the way I like it.

German beers should not be muddled or confused in my opinion, I believe a simple grain bill is the best way to achieve that.

I brewed up an oktoberfestbier as described in https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/first-lager-have-question-108333/ that went from 1.060 to 1.014. I did a double (actually turned out being a triple) decoction with the sacc rest at 152. I used the liquid version of the yeast you're planning on using. It's still carbing but tastes so far have been extremely promising, and I think it ended up with just the right amount of maltiness. I'll also agree that my preference is to simplified grain bills as much as possible, as you can see in my recipe. You might consider dropping the aromatic and caramunich in order to better experience and enjoy the natural maltiness from the base grains and the decoction mash.

OK. I am doing a Hochkurz mash. Re-watching Kaisers videos and some more reading has me thinking it is the best way to go for our highly modified malts.

Just checked gravity on this and I am at 1.026 (about 2/3 of fermentables are gone) so I tasted for diacytl and couldn't taste anything really buttery or popcorn like. This is the first time checking for diacytl though...

How noticeable will it be?

I think it's more noticeable (at lower levels) as a slippery-on-the-tongue feeling. I do D-rests everytime, even though I don't need to. I think even without detectable diacetyl, they do more good than harm. If you're going to do one, I'd start cranking that temp up this evening.

OK, so for my first lager it is probably a good idea to do the D-rest.

So I will bring the temp up to 65ºF for 3 days, then bring the temps down 2º a day until I am at lager temps.

Does that sound good?

When should I transfer, or dump in the case on the Helles in the conical? I feel like now would be a good time, but maybe after the D-rest.

60-65°F is good. Duration is dependant on fermentation finishing. Sometimes it's 2 days for me... other times, like this past week on my Helles, it's 3 days. After that, dropping 2°F per day is pretty conservative. I go 5°F per day to speed it up a bit and I don't think it's too much for the yeast.

Definitely rack after the D-rest. I like to bring the temp down as low as I can before racking to help preserve more CO2 in solution when racking for lagering. Depending on when I'm going to have time to rack, sometimes I only get it back to 50°F, other times to 35°F. I don't think it matters all that much... I just try to get it as low as I reasonably can before racking is convenient.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

When should I transfer, or dump in the case on the Helles in the conical? I feel like now would be a good time, but maybe after the D-rest.

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I say rack after d-rest and after you've brought it to lager temp, to drop as much excess yeast out as possible. Then again, John Palmer recently talked about having success lagering in the primary. I might try that soon.

So I just had a sample pull of this to test FG and see how the ate was coming along.

I also forgot to mention above that I only found enough W34/70 for half of this batch, the other half I am fermenting with WY2007:

A classic American Pilsner strain, smooth, malty palate. Ferments dry and crisp.

Origin:
Flocculation: Medium
Attenuation: 71-75%
Temperature Range: 48-56F, 9-13C
Alcohol Tolerance: 9% ABV

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W34/70 F.G. 1.014
WY2007 F.G. 1.014

As of know, the 2007 O-fest is already incredibly smooth malty and crisp. The W34/70 is not as smooth and has a bit more fruitiness to it. This may be because I pitched the dry yeast dry into 46º wort without re-hydrating it That was the first time using dry yeast for me, and like an idiot I didn't read the directions (must hydrate when pitching under 72º, duh).

I am hoping that the W34/70 smooths a bunch during lagering, but so far I am very happy with my first lager attempts.

Sounds good, BK. I think the 34/70 will smooth out nicely during lagering. Not sure about the fruitiness though. Could be from not rehydrating... that could have messed with the overall yeast health (viable cells, petite mutants, etc.) and could have produced more esters. I'm sure that beer has a good lagering period ahead of it... so the taste could change a lot for the better after it.

menschmaschine said:

Sounds good, BK. I think the 34/70 will smooth out nicely during lagering. Not sure about the fruitiness though. Could be from not rehydrating... that could have messed with the overall yeast health (viable cells, petite mutants, etc.) and could have produced more esters. I'm sure that beer has a good lagering period ahead of it... so the taste could change a lot for the better after it.

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That is what I am thinking and hoping.

Well. This turned out to be the best beer I have brewed to date. It was awesome and we kicked the two full kegs in record time. Everyone agreed it was fantastic and had no flaws. I honestly am not even sure what I would change. I didn't have a chance to sit down for a formal tasting and have no pics Oh well, that just means I have to rebrew it!!!

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Well. This turned out to be the best beer I have brewed to date. It was awesome and we kicked the two full kegs in record time. Everyone agreed it was fantastic and had no flaws. I honestly am not even sure what I would change. I didn't have a chance to sit down for a formal tasting and have no pics Oh well, that just means I have to rebrew it!!!

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Great! Now, get brewing. I'll brew vicariously through you.

Any differences between the yeasts you noticed in the final product? Which did you prefer?

I actually preferred the 2007 (CAP). It was very malty and crisp. Totally clean and very pleasant.

I promise I will get my reviews scanned and sent out soon. I have had the reviews done for over a month, just been to crazy to find an hour to scan them in.

Time to brew again. I am doing this exact same thing again. If it turns out nearly as good, I will post the recipe to the database.

Brewday set for Sunday.

Is the recipe from your first post still accurate, or did you make changes? Adding this to my brewlist...

It is all accurate except the yest. I found that Wyeast 2007 Pilsen lager turned out much better than the W34/70. I am using all 2007 this year (make sure you make a BIG starter, check out mr. malty dot com).

Thanks. What schedule did you end up using for your hochkurz?

Mash schedule was:

Protein rest: Dough-in to 133º for 15 minutes
Maltose rest: Infusion to 144º for 40 minutes
Dextrinization rest: after 15 minutes of the Maltose rest, pull a deco and bring it to boil, reintroduce after the Maltose rest time to reach 158º and hold for 40 minutes.
Mash out: Pull a decoction to mash out at 169º and start sparging.

I saw that I did not update this thread after last years batch. A massive hit again. This really is the best beer I brew by a pretty good margin.

Winner.

Thanks for sharing!

This might be easier to read...

Recipe: Wild Thing Oktoberfestbier
Style: Oktoberfest/Marzen
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 12.72 gal
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 8.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 18.9 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.10 lb Munich II (Weyermann) (8.5 SRM) Grain 32.51 %
7.10 lb Vienna Malt (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 32.51 %
6.74 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 30.86 %
0.45 lb Aromatic Malt (Briess) (20.0 SRM) Grain 2.06 %
0.45 lb Caramunich II (Weyermann) (63.0 SRM) Grain 2.06 %
4.81 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.50 %] (60 min)Hops 18.9 IBU
1.90 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.90 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Misc
2 Pkgs Pilsen Lager (Wyeast Labs #2007) Yeast-Lager


Mash Schedule: My Mash

Maltose - 144
Dextrin - 158


label:


tap handle:

Man I would love to do a deco mash but I have no clue how to with biab

Just use an extra pot on the stove or burner. Super easy. Go to braukaiser.com and watch the Kaiser's videos. They explain the process very well. Basically, you just remove some of the mash from your bag, boil it in a separate pot, then return it to the bag.

Good luck. Let me know if you brew the Wild Thing!

did you really do a protein rest? did you feel there was a benefit?

I was gonna do a similar schedule except no protein, dough straight to maltose rest. grain bill is just 75% vienna, 25% munich

I am a pretty big believer in properly applied protein rests. I feel like lagers benefit with a better head retention (just my observations, the science behind that claim is pretty spotty) and the beers have a better crispness to them. Plus, it is only an extra 15 minutes.

I will be brewing Wild Thing in May sometime. Hurray!