Getting sick, tired, and demoralized

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EamusCatuli

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So I have brewed about 25 batches of brew so far, almost a year now. I started with extract and did this for a while, and I was happy but not thrilled with how my beer would come out. I have always had this trouble with generic tasting beers with none of the intended tastes coming through (thin tasting), even when aged for more than enough time. I racked my brain and complained to you all then, and decided to go PM.
I did a PM and after 4 weeks letting my wit age in the bottles, same problem. I then went to AG, and even though my recipe (a Rye) is only one week in the bottles, I can definitely start to see the oncomings of the same problem.
A few of my friends have noticed that as time goes by my beers are actually LOSING taste as the carb starts to take effect. And I have to say I agree. Its really pissing me off because all I am is passionate about my brewing and I spent so much time and money on trying to make great brews, but they all have the same sub-par end result. Im sure some of you have heard these ramblings from me before, but im at my wits end and getting very demoralized.
My water is fine because a buddy of mine who brews here makes great tasting beer, much better than mine while using the same processes, ingredients, and time (although he kegs). I have thought that its something with the carbonation and the priming sugar I use, but everyone seems to think its inert. So I dont know what to do anymore, but im sick of spending money on beer that comes out wrong no matter how hard I try. Im getting a keg system in the near future, so maybe this will help I hope (however my glass has been half empty lately so im guessing its just more wasted money).

does anybody have any advice?
 
Could you have a brew day with your buddy? Maybe he'll notice some differences in your methods. Besides, brewing with other guys while drinking some homebrew is what I look forward to all week.

How's the stout?
 
Have you had experienced brewers or beer judges try your beers and have they made the same (unsolicited) observations? It's possible you're being too hard on yourself and expecting to taste something wrong with the beer.

If you're methods are solid, your water is good, and your ingredients fresh, it seems odd you would have problems making good beer.

Can you describe more of what you believe is wrong with the beer?
 
Are you hitting your gravities?

I have had the thin tasting beer issue in the past because:

A. My crush was too coarse, and I wasn't extracting enough sugar.

B. My mash temp was lower than I intended, and therefore, my beer finished too low resulting in less body.

Also try throwing a lb of flaked Barley and/or 1/2 lb dextrine in with the mash. The barley won't change the flavor, but will add head retention and mouthefeel. The dextrine is very sweet so be careful, but it adds some beautiful body to ales.
 
Have you had experienced brewers or beer judges try your beers and have they made the same (unsolicited) observations? It's possible you're being too hard on yourself and expecting to taste something wrong with the beer.

If you're methods are solid, your water is good, and your ingredients fresh, it seems odd you would have problems making good beer.

Can you describe more of what you believe is wrong with the beer?

Yeah my methods are solid and I have brewed with my buddy before and I actually learned most of what I do from him, his beer is great. I suppose about the only way I can describe them is generic, almost too carbed. For example, ive NEVER had a beer that tasted malty, they only taste sharp and dry. Maybe this is the "green beer taste," ive never really known exactly what that is, so maybe I just need to let my beer sit longer? I generally do the 123 thing. However, my wit is going to be at 4-5 weeks and it tastes generic still. Is the 123 method rubbish or what? I would think that my Rye is going to only need 3 weeks, but im 100% its going to be the same story even after a month of bottle aging. Im sick of it too, I read people who have only had their beers aged for 2 weeks and they find them to be "amazing." Ive never felt my beers to be amazing even though the amount of effort I put into them should make them so. I would love for a experienced brewer or a beer judge to tell me whats up, but I really wouldnt know where to look in my town.

I could sure use some fruits of my labors.
 
Personally I think the 1-2-3 method IS rubish. It's there mostly so new brewers can have something to try as soon as possible...

Brew one of your batches again, preferably your simplest recipe (base malt and no more than 2 flavor grains, preferably one, and a simple hop bill) leave it in primary for a month and bottle carb/condition for 3 weeks

See if it tastes any better/different...and if you brew a beer that you have some bottles left from the previous batch you can compare the 2.

Leaving my beers for 3-4 week in primary was one of the best "upgrades" to my process ever.\

But definitely find a Bjcp judge to evaluate your beer...even enter a contest for a blind judging...you should get some good feedback that way...
 
Do usually use a yeast with high attenuation? You could try a purposefully high mash (158°) for unfermentable sugars or a yeast that leaves you with a high FG.
 
Personally I think the 1-2-3 method IS rubish. It's there mostly so new brewers can have something to try as soon as possible...

Brew one of your batches again, preferably your simplest recipe (base malt and no more than 2 flavor grains, preferably one, and a simple hop bill) leave it in primary for a month and bottle carb/condition for 3 weeks

See if it tastes any better/different...and if you brew a beer that you have some bottles left from the previous batch you can compare the 2.

Leaving my beers for 3-4 week in primary was one of the best "upgrades" to my process ever.\

But definitely find a Bjcp judge to evaluate your beer...even enter a contest for a blind judging...you should get some good feedback that way...

You leave your beer in the primary for 3-4, then still secondary? And then you wait for bottle conditioning?

Maybe I just need to let this stuff sit....
 
Do usually use a yeast with high attenuation? You could try a purposefully high mash (158°) for unfermentable sugars or a yeast that leaves you with a high FG.

Yeah I have thought about mashing high, but im more and more thinking that it just took me a bunch of batches to realize that im drinking green beer and am thus dissatisfied.

Hopefully

Basically what I am going to equate to green beer is:

Green Beer = harsh, sharp, bitter, unbalanced, hazy, thin - yes?
 
You leave your beer in the primary for 3-4, then still secondary? And then you wait for bottle conditioning?

Maybe I just need to let this stuff sit....


no I never secondary, there is no need...with 3-4 weeks of the yeast cleaning up after themselves, my beers are jewel-like and taste really clean and crisp.
 
It's tough to pinpoint a problem like that without being there for your brewday. I wouldn't think it's the bottles/carbonation, so unless you were planning on buying a keg set-up anyway, I don't think that will solve the problem. One suggestion would be (if you've not already done so) to invest in some good books like Designing Great Beers and New Brewing Lager Beer (not just for lagers anymore). Read through them with an open mind... you might discover the reason.
 
It's tough to pinpoint a problem like that without being there for your brewday. I wouldn't think it's the bottles/carbonation, so unless you were planning on buying a keg set-up anyway, I don't think that will solve the problem. One suggestion would be (if you've not already done so) to invest in some good books like Designing Great Beers and New Brewing Lager Beer (not just for lagers anymore). Read through them with an open mind... you might discover the reason.

But the thing is, I don't do anything different from "by-the-book" procedures. Ive read completely through How To Brew and Radical Brewing, and have taken a lot from them. I will def. read through those books, im always down for more brew knowledge, but im sure that my process isnt much different than 90% of all the members on here....
 
Yeah I have thought about mashing high, but im more and more thinking that it just took me a bunch of batches to realize that im drinking green beer and am thus dissatisfied.

Hopefully

Basically what I am going to equate to green beer is:

Green Beer = harsh, sharp, bitter, unbalanced, hazy, thin - yes?

In my experience yes on all accounts. For example, I just had an Amber of mine go from bitter with that fresh apple green taste, to a nicely balanced beer with some body and a slightly hoppy caramel aftertaste. My favorite homebrew so far. I'm still learning to let it sit too!
 
In my experience yes on all accounts. For example, I just had an Amber of mine go from bitter with that fresh apple green taste, to a nicely balanced beer with some body and a slightly hoppy caramel aftertaste. My favorite homebrew so far. I'm still learning to let it sit too!

Its a mother f*cker brother!
 
no I never secondary, there is no need...with 3-4 weeks of the yeast cleaning up after themselves, my beers are jewel-like and taste really clean and crisp.

Amen to this.

I bottled an IPA this last weekend that I mashed and put in primary on the 15th of June, but then didn't rack and bottle until the 27th of July. While I was disappointed with this batch because of crush and mash issues, I have to say it's extremely clear and tasted great going into the bottle. I'm really looking forward to cracking one of these open now, but I'll have to wait another couple weeks to see how it is...

I was totally stuck on 1-2-3 for my first few extract batches, but now I am completely sold on 3+ weeks in primary. In fact, I think I'm going to just start doing 4 weeks.

I also hate to admit this, as I was a real Danstar cheerleader with Nottingham, but I've made my last three batches with US-05 and I honestly believe I'm making better beer with it. My beer tastes more natural to me with the Safale. YMMV.
 
Yeah I have thought about mashing high, but im more and more thinking that it just took me a bunch of batches to realize that im drinking green beer and am thus dissatisfied.

Hopefully

Basically what I am going to equate to green beer is:

Green Beer = harsh, sharp, bitter, unbalanced, hazy, thin - yes?

my question to you is give us a recipe for a beer that you think has this problem and be sure to post all brew related instructions (i.e. mash temps, grain bill, mash volume and sparge temps and volumes). this is the only way we can truly help without doing wags.
 
Amen to this.

I bottled an IPA this last weekend that I mashed and put in primary on the 15th of June, but then didn't rack and bottle until the 27th of July. While I was disappointed with this batch because of crush and mash issues, I have to say it's extremely clear and tasted great going into the bottle. I'm really looking forward to cracking one of these open now, but I'll have to wait another couple weeks to see how it is...

I was totally stuck on 1-2-3 for my first few extract batches, but now I am completely sold on 3+ weeks in primary. In fact, I think I'm going to just start doing 4 weeks.

I also hate to admit this, as I was a real Danstar cheerleader with Nottingham, but I've made my last three batches with US-05 and I honestly believe I'm making better beer with it. My beer tastes more natural to me with the Safale. YMMV.

Thats really interesting that you guys arent even messing with the secondary. . . . Maybe this is the way to go
 
The 1-2-3 method is definitely too quick. I always secondary. Don't skip that.

This is what I do:

- 10 to 14 days primary
- 3 to 4 weeks secondary (it won't hurt to leave it longer)
- bottle and carb for 5 to 6 weeks

I have only rarely ever been seriously dissatisfied with one of my beers. Most of the time it is great beer and I'm amazed that I brewed it myself.

Make sure you watch your mash temps and your fermentation temps. The defective brews I've made are usually traceable to being off on one of those.
 
my question to you is give us a recipe for a beer that you think has this problem and be sure to post all brew related instructions (i.e. mash temps, grain bill, mash volume and sparge temps and volumes). this is the only way we can truly help without doing wags.

Im brewing an IPA soon, this is what im going to do for it:

OG - 64
FG - 16
IBU - 69
ABV - 6.2
SRm - 8
5 Gallons
California Ale Yeast

.5# Crystal 60
9# 2-row
1# Munich
1# Vienna

.5 oz Columbus @ 60
.5 oz Perle @ 60
.5 oz Perle @ 15
1 oz Cascade @ 5
1 oz Cascade (whole) @ Dry Hop

- Preheat MLT w/ 3 gallons near boiling water
- Add grains to MLT
- Add 3.4 gallons of 167F water to reach 152F
- Mash one hour
- Collect 1st runnings ( Mash out w/ 170F *been having bad luck w/ stuck sparges)
- Sparge 1 w/ 2 gallons (allow to sit for 10 mins. before sparge)
- Sparge 2 w/ 2 gallons (allow to sit for 10 mins. before sparge)
- Approx. 6.5 gallons collected, bring to boil
- Add hops according to schedule @ 60 mins.
- Cool immediately w/ immersion chiller until 75F
- Pour kettle wort into primary
- pitch yeast, seal.
- after primary fermentation (1 week), rack to secondary
- after 2 weeks in secondary, bottle.
- After 3 weeks, get pissed and frustrated with same ol same ol generic tasting brew.
 
Add me to the train that does 21-day primary (or longer, if life interrupts!) and then 3 weeks in the keg. Delicious. Simply delicious. Now i just gotta do something abou thtose ferment temps....
 
While I am certainly a newb, I can say that letting it sit for a while certainly improves the beer. I am drinking a Nut -n- Honey Brown Ale right now, my 3rd batch. It spent 2 weeks in primary, 1 week in secondary, and 5 weeks in the bottle and is the best tasting beer I have made yet. Homebrewing will teach you patience if nothing else. Brew more and let it sit is my experience.

I will be brewing my first Ag tomorrow, I' sure that will once again test my patience.....
 
I started with the 1-2-3 method, and have since started 2-2-3 or 3-2-3 since I'm not always able to rack to secondary right away. The results have been much better with a longer time in primary. There are a few threads around recently about a longer primary helping prevent diacetyl and other off flavors since it gives the yeast time to clean up some byproducts produced during the active phase of fermentation.

Now that I'm using fining agents more regularly, I could probably skip the secondary since the beer is usually pretty clear going into the secondary.
 
would leaving it in primary for 3 weeks and then transferring to secondary for 2 or so weeks hurt bottling at all (specifically I mean will there be enough yeast to carb)?
 
Im brewing an IPA soon, this is what im going to do for it:

OG - 64
FG - 16
IBU - 69
ABV - 6.2
SRm - 8
5 Gallons
California Ale Yeast

.5# Crystal 60
9# 2-row
1# Munich
1# Vienna

.5 oz Columbus @ 60
.5 oz Perle @ 60
.5 oz Perle @ 15
1 oz Cascade @ 5
1 oz Cascade (whole) @ Dry Hop

- Preheat MLT w/ 3 gallons near boiling water
- Add grains to MLT
- Add 3.4 gallons of 167F water to reach 152F
- Mash one hour
- Collect 1st runnings ( Mash out w/ 170F *been having bad luck w/ stuck sparges)
- Sparge 1 w/ 2 gallons (allow to sit for 10 mins. before sparge)are you mixing?
- Sparge 2 w/ 2 gallons (allow to sit for 10 mins. before sparge)
- Approx. 6.5 gallons collected, bring to boil
- Add hops according to schedule @ 60 mins.
- Cool immediately w/ immersion chiller until 75F
- Pour kettle wort into primary
- pitch yeast, seal.
- after primary fermentation (1 week), rack to secondary
- after 2 weeks in secondary, bottle.
- After 3 weeks, get pissed and frustrated with same ol same ol generic tasting brew.

not to be an a** but that recipe is going to get you a thin tasting unbalanced bitter beer.if your after a malty sided beer try orfy's hobgoblin clone
 
would leaving it in primary for 3 weeks and then transferring to secondary for 2 or so weeks hurt bottling at all (specifically I mean will there be enough yeast to carb)?

You can leave it much longer than that and have no trouble with enough yeast to carbonate. I usually leave mine for a couple months in the secondary and never had to add yeast.
 
I leave mine in the primary a minimum of 10 days to a month if I'm busy and don't need to put another batch in place. 10 days minimum though before cold crashing, so really it's on the yeast at least 14 days before racking.

Once kegged, it's at least another 4 weeks before drinking.
 
Maybe this is too obvious, but have you checked your thermometer? It could be upto 10deg off, maybe your mashing in the 140's, that would give you a thin dry beer every time.
 
not to be an a** but that recipe is going to get you a thin tasting unbalanced bitter beer.if your after a malty sided beer try orfy's hobgoblin clone

Well I was really wanting an IPA, not an old ale ya know? No you're not being an a**, I appreciate criticism. Why would it be unbalanced? ( I am in no way superior in creating recipes and could really use the advice)
 
Ill keep you guys updated, im praying that its all on me not being patient enough. We shall see, if by October these beers arent better tasting then....well , I dont know what ill do.
 
I'm in the same boat you are, Eamus. I haven't done nearly as many brews as you, (about ready to do my 4th) but my last two have been subpar for sure, with an annoying off-flavor that I think I have pinpointed. After spending cash to go all grain, it was a huge disappointment to get that same "ehhh" beer that I got on some of my extract batches. The only beer I've been proud of was my first.

I just bought a kegerator and I'm going to keg my next batch. I'm hoping my next batch will be good, as I now have a way to control fermentation temp.

Have you tried copying one of your buddy's recipes? It sounds like your method is fine, since your buddy has watched you brew and hasn't pointed out any flaws.
 
7 days in the primary is not enough. 14 to 21 days in the primary fermenter is better and forget the secondary transfer, it is not needed for ale yeasts. Always maintain proper fermentation temperatures. This is where most brewers fail due to not having any temperature control. Using sanitary procedures is an absolute must to prevent infections and off flavors.
 
not to be an a** but that recipe is going to get you a thin tasting unbalanced bitter beer.if your after a malty sided beer try orfy's hobgoblin clone

I had the same two thoughts.
That recipe does look good, but it will produce a very light summer ale. Not a BMC but.. pretty close on malt flavour, or lack of it. You could try mashing a little higher but I don't think that is your problem. It looks like you have your volumes down, I brew into primary 6+ gals and overstuff my secondary and carboy. If I'm breaking a sweat, I'm getting the most out of it as I can.
Are your stirring well in the batch additions? Other than that your process look right on.
What is your overall brewhouse efficiency and mash efficiency? There has to be something you can key in on, it sounds like your making good beer, just not as good as you would like.
What temp do you ferment at?
I hate turning everything back at you as a question, I just have gone through a lot of the same issues lately.:confused:
 
What can he do to change the recipe to make it better? 1 pound of Munich should add a decent malty flavor. I could see bumping up the mash temperature, but other than that I don't see anything that would make the brew thin and watery? At 60 IBU and dry hopped, I can't imagine getting anything close to BMC. Of course I've only designed one beer,tweaked a few, and never made an IPA.
 
Have you brewed your own recipes for your 25 batch history, or have you brewed tested and proven recipes? Half of my problems starting out came from making my own recipes instead of getting the rest of my process done first. Tossing ingredients in the pot is easy and "drinkable" but I was disappointed that everything was just a little "thin".
 
Could you have a brew day with your buddy? Maybe he'll notice some differences in your methods.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Sometimes having an extra pair of eyeballs around helps.

Keep the faith, brother!
 
BTW, I love all the help guys it really means alot :mug:

If there is one thing that I know is lacking its my temp control. I do my best and I always stay around the temp. range for the yeast, its never 72+ or under 65. But always right around 68 plus or minus a couple degrees. I really don't see this creating the "bleh" taste in all my beers though. I may get a more fruity wit, for example, but nothing I feel to make my beer sub-par. Especially if im on the 25 batch or so.

I have made my own recipes since about my 10th extract batch. I always use the "stand on the shoulder of giants" approach as I usually take recipes of beers I already enjoy and tweek them to more of my liking.

My IPA recipe, for example, was a mix and match myriad of different ingredients from IPA's I really enjoyed, such as 3 flloyds Alpha King (which I would have liked to be lighter). Shouldnt an IPA be a light and summery base ale? Is that IPA recipe really that bad? Most recipes for IPA are 90% 2-row anyway, I don't see how I could have steered wrong.

I really am starting to think that its just me not being patient enough waiting on my beers. I ALWAYS brew according to BJCP and to style, never out of it. Im very sanitary, and I think my processes are okay. I have brewing software that holds my hand through all of this as well.

I have just heard so many people drinking their beers after their 123 approach that I feel I should have the same great beer, esp. after 4 weeks in a bottle. BUT, every brew is different, made in different areas, with different brewers and different brew styles. This is what I think it comes down to. I just need to have patience and wait for my time. If I keep going down this aggravating road of being dissapointed with my beers before they are ready I will surely quit and that would just be sad.

ps - im def. going to start primary for 2 weeks + and then secondary, and then the bottles.
 
Honestly, with your comment that "the beers seem to lose taste over time", and with you saying they all taste thin, I think an infection problem isn't out of the realm of possibilities. It is quite possible to have an infection that simply dries out the beers too far, and this can eliminate some flavor theoretically, without leaving much of any telltale sourness or funk.


And no, that is a nice IPA recipe. Certainly not on the maltier side of IPAs, but that is perfectly acceptable and the way I usually go with my IPAs.
 
a lot of people are saying leave in the primary longer. i'm dont disagree with that but how to breweries produce quality beer in such a short time. they are not leaving the beer on the yeast for 3-4 weeks unless its such a high OG batch. what procedures are they using that helps them get good beer in a short time.
 
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