This is my dream...

Dude, why do want to cater to just blue-collar workers??? why not have something for everyone? Set up a couple big-screens so us construction guys can catch a game, and put in some WI-FI so the suits can do their thing. Give them all good food and great beer, and your rollin'!

rdwj said:

Honestly, that's got to be the smallest sub-set of beer drinkers possible

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Honestly, you are probably right, but I just wanted to state that it DOES work both ways. You might very well not get the BMC people in without BMC, but I stand by my statement then; those are the people you don't want in anyway. ANd if there are customers like me, you would lose some business by having those type of people in...

Personally, I picture 'my' pub as being a classy place. Not a place where there are guys in dirty-1980 rock band T-shirts sitting at my bar beeching about "that mother-fooking Dale Earnhardt Jr. being a dirty mother-fooking driver" because they are drunk off their BMC-swill and have no class (yes, I'm stereotyping a bit, but most of us know these types). If there is someone who likes beer and drinks BMC because thats what is widely available and affordable, but still likes a good restaurant or other good beer, then he will try your brewpub even without BMC. And he will not be the type who acts as above...

Chimone said:

Now a class 3 license allows you to produce and sell up to 200k gallons of your own product. No other liquor or beer from a distributor (not sure if it requires you to serve food or not) . And this license is only $500 bucks.

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LOL!!! As a retirement job, wouldn't that rock? You have a little wooden shack outside the back of your property in an unincorporated part of the state where nobody hassles you. You pay your $500.

Every Friday night, you open the doors to the shack, sell your beer, and go back to retirement...


Gotta sell food too? No problem. Your choice. We got Spaghetti-O's and we got Peanut Butter sandwiches.

Toot said:

Yeah. Those are beer SNOBS, not beer enthusiasts. Beer enthusiasts say, "
What??!!! They have a new kind of beer??!!!! LET'S GO!!!!!" Doesn't matter if he a satanist and the brewery is atop a large montain and the beer being brewed by religious monks, a real beer drinker will get to the top for a sample....

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Maybe I am a beer snob, but I don't think I am... Because...

If the bar serving BMC also has a selection of 100 imported bottles and micros, I'll gladly drink alongside a Bud drinker. If it does not, I'll pass.

It's just my experience though, the majority of places the serve BMC usually serve only/mainly BMC. Yes, probably quite a selection of BMC at that. Budweiser, Bud Light, High Life, Miller Lite, Pabst, Michelob Ultra, Michelob Light, Michelob Amber, Bud Select, etc. You get the picture. You might see the occasional New Castle, Heineken, Amstel Light, or Fosters, or even maybe Sierra Nevada if you are REALLY lucky, but definitely nothing micro'd at most places around here. The places that are the exception to this (and there are a few around these parts), I gladly visit and drink with the macro-swill drinkers. A lot of them aren't too bad, just uneducated on beer, while others are just downright classless and annoying.

Toot said:

LOL!!! As a retirement job, wouldn't that rock? You have a little wooden shack outside the back of your property in an unincorporated part of the state where nobody hassles you. You pay your $500.

Every Friday night, you open the doors to the shack, sell your beer, and go back to retirement...


Gotta sell food too? No problem. Your choice. We got Spaghetti-O's and we got Peanut Butter sandwiches.

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LMAO @ Toot.

:rockin:

Dude, BTW are you gonna sell your pickled eggs?????:rockin:

SilkkyBrew said:

Honestly, you are probably right, but I just wanted to state that it DOES work both ways. You might very well not get the BMC people in without BMC, but I stand by my statement then; those are the people you don't want in anyway. ANd if there are customers like me, you would lose some business by having those type of people in...

Personally, I picture 'my' pub as being a classy place. Not a place where there are guys in dirty-1980 rock band T-shirts sitting at my bar beeching about "that mother-fooking Dale Earnhardt Jr. being a dirty mother-fooking driver" because they are drunk off their BMC-swill and have no class (yes, I'm stereotyping a bit, but most of us know these types). If there is someone who likes beer and drinks BMC because thats what is widely available and affordable, but still likes a good restaurant or other good beer, then he will try your brewpub even without BMC. And he will not be the type who acts as above...

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Again, beer snob versus beer enthusiast. uhhh... versus people who might be able to be educated. You want to exclude people who might be receptive to learning, then go right ahead.

I'm sure it will affect your bottom line though.

Dude, I'm retiring in three years, and I'd work for you for FREE. What a great vision. If you need an assistant brewer/waitress/cleaning lady- I'm your man (so to speak).

My brewbuddy and I are taking next Monday off work to go up to a brewpub that's about 2 hours each way from here. (http://www.michiganhousecafe.com) The reason- great food, great beer. Since he makes small batches at a time, he supplements his beer choices with quality micro and macros. Bell's, Unibroue, and Skullsplitter as well as the Corona/Heiniken. Bells, SNPA, and a couple others on tap- the rest in bottles. Tim, the brewer, is willing to talk beer and brewing with us, and invited us to come up when he brews. I sure hope they make it- it's a great place.

Now, for a big brewpub, Milwaukee Ale House has some good beers, but they do have one called "Downtown Lights" or something like that. It's for the BMC crowd, and out of our group of 12, 4 drank that and loved it. Now, our group (except for those 4!) are beer snobs, so I think your average group would be maybe 50/50 light beer/good beer drinkers. This place also has some great food and it's crowded.

Thanks for bringing up this subject- lots of food (and beer) for thought.

Toot said:

Again, beer snob versus beer enthusiast. uhhh... versus people who might be able to be educated. You want to exclude people who might be receptive to learning, then go right ahead.

I'm sure it will affect your bottom line though.

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It might effect my bottom line, but the bottom line is I do not want "Real Men Drink Bud" Type people in my establishment. You can also stereotype these people as "hicks" or "Nascar lovers" etc. These people are also generally considered "Potty-mouths" or "Dirty" or "etc."

I said I would gladly take in the person who drinks Bud only due to being negligent/uneducated and want to try something new, but these are the kind of people that would find their way in anyway.

Basically what I'm saying is, do not specifically cater to the crowd from my first description above because they will not come anyway, they come dressed as slobs, or if they do come they will b*tch about their food, your expensive Bud (more expensive than your house beers), etc. because that is their personality/type. If NOT serving BMC keeps this type of person out (which is undoubtedly will), then I would not serve it...

The blue-collar worker who drinks Bud (because he drinks 1 case of week and its cheap), but also likes to try new things, go out for a nice dinner, etc. will don his best blue jeans and shirt and come on out and I'll gladly accept him as a customer and hopefully convert his off his BMC.

I just would NEVER sell BMC at my microbrewery if I expected my microbrewery to survive. That's all... In fact, I've been to probably 30+ micros in the Eastern US and I can't recall any successful ones that sold BMC. I know of some that do sell BMC, but they are also the dimly lit, smoke filled, just getting by, type places.

EDIT: Like I said on page 3 or 4. If it's not broke, don't fix it. Don't cater to the BMC folk just because they are the masses. It hasn't worked for the other plethora of micros I've been to for a reason...

Dude said:

LMAO @ Toot.

:rockin:

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You know what? That there is more along the lines of -my- dream. Who the heck wants to work 6 days a week and keep a careful eye on the bottom line and theiving cashiers? Fuggit.

I'll have a bar, it'll seat a couple dozen, we'll have some microbrews on tap and we'll have some growlers. If it gets too crowded, you all can grab a blanket and sit outside (on my property). Maybe have a little bonfire if you want. Drink too much? Then just sleep it off... you can camp there as well, but you gotta pay five bucks.


I'd imagine you'd get a lot of motorcycle riders on a night trip. You'd probably also get a lot of free thinkers and hippy types who would road trip for tasty beer. If they don't like each other, they can just keep to a different spot of grass. You could have a seriously cool "Woodstock" sort of vibe... and easily make a grand in a night.


Again... who wants to work 6 days a week? :cross:

olllllo said:

The best places IMO are where you find an eclectic crowd.

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Yeah, that's what keeps Austin Weird!

SilkkyBrew said:

It might effect my bottom line, but the bottom line is I do not want "Real Men Drink Bud" Type people in my establishment. You can also stereotype these people as "hicks" or "Nascar lovers" etc. These people are also generally considered "Potty-mouths" or "Dirty" or "etc."

I said I would gladly take in the person who drinks Bud only due to being negligent/uneducated and want to try something new, but these are the kind of people that would find their way in anyway.

Basically what I'm saying is, do not specifically cater to the crowd from my first description above because they will not come anyway, they come dressed as slobs, or if they do come they will b*tch about their food, your expensive Bud (more expensive than your house beers), etc. because that is their personality/type.

The blue-collar worker who drinks Bud (because he drinks 1 case of week and its cheap), but also likes to try new things, go out for a nice dinner, etc. will don his best blue jeans and shirt and come on out and I'll gladly accept him as a customer and hopefully convert his off his BMC.

I just would NEVER sell BMC at my microbrewery if I expected my microbrewery to survive. That's all... In fact, I've been to probably 30+ micros in the Eastern US and I can't recall any successful ones that sold BMC. I know of some that do sell BMC, but they are also the dimly lit, smoke filled, just getting by, type places.

EDIT: Like I said on page 3 or 4. If it's not broke, don't fix it. Don't cater to the BMC folk just because they are the masses. It hasn't worked for the other plethora of micros I've been to for a reason...

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I understand your point... I just don't think your stereotypes are useful, accurate, or educated. The worst is that they aren't useful. Usefulness is the most important aspect of a stereotype when trying to turn a profit and I don't think your opinion fits that. My best friends are hicks and rednecks who've never been to a city larger than Bloomington, Indiana. Seriously. They don't even own a tie. But they enjoy the occasional Guinness and can pour you a dozen types of Scotch from their own liquor cabinet... in addition to their uncle's moonshine. Ever meet a redneck C++ programmer? I have. They email their work to their boss, so why would they ever have to go to a big city? And yes, they wear Budweiser caps that are at least 10 years old and they also love their NASCRAP. I make fun of them for it relentlessly. And they do not live on a paved road.

It's not that you're wrong in your opinions. Opinions aren't wrong. Ever. Your opinions aren't wrong... they are just silly.

Toot said:

You know what? That there is more along the lines of -my- dream. Who the heck wants to work 6 days a week and keep a careful eye on the bottom line and theiving cashiers? Fuggit.

I'll have a bar, it'll seat a couple dozen, we'll have some microbrews on tap and we'll have some growlers. If it gets too crowded, you all can grab a blanket and sit outside (on my property).

Again... who wants to work 6 days a week? :cross:

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At least we can agree on something brother. If I were to have a "brewery"/"brewpub" I'd want one hell of a manager to oversee it because I don't want to be the one working my ace off for it 7 days a week.

SilkkyBrew said:

At least we can agree on something brother. If I were to have a "brewery"/"brewpub" I'd want one hell of a manager to oversee it because I don't want to be the one working my ace off for it 7 days a week.

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Agreed!

Toot said:

I understand your point... I just don't think your stereotypes are useful, accurate, or educated. The worst is that they aren't useful. Usefulness is the most important aspect of a stereotype when trying to turn a profit and I don't think your opinion fits that. My best friends are hicks and rednecks who've never been to a city larger than Bloomington, Indiana. Seriously. They don't even own a tie. But they enjoy the occasional Guinness and can pour you a dozen types of Scotch.. in addition to their uncle's moonshine. And yes, they wear Budweiser caps that are at least 10 years old and they also love their NASCRAP. I make fun of them for it relentlessly.

It's not that you're wrong in your opinions. Opinions aren't wrong. Ever. Your opinions aren't wrong... they are just silly.

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Maybe you misunderstand my opinion then or maybe I'm not stating it accurately enough in all my babble (I've had 3 IPAs thus far tonight since 5 and I only weigh 140lb :cross: ).

Your hick friends are the type I wouldn't mind coming into my bar. If they enjoy the occasional Guiness or Scotch then they are not the type that fit into my 'strict' stereotype. They are the type that, given the chance, will put on their best wranglers and a plain t-shirt (read: no 1984 Kenny Rogers Tour shirts) or a woolrich plaid shirt, and come on out to the microbrewery even if it doesn't have BMC. They are the type that understand its a little classier than most places they are accustomed but are smart enough to try to fit in a little bit... and casual WOULD be accepted.

All I'm saying is this (I'll ty to keep it simple and to the point this time). Do not specifically cater to the type that say "I will not go to that brewpub because they don't serve BMC". There is no use. There is a reason there is an accurate "target market" in any successful business and they are not your target in this type of business. That's all... You can only fit some many people in the door anyway, so myswell be the ones who are goin to buy the micro pint for $4 when it was concocted for $.25.

EDIT: BTW I've had a Dogfish 90 Minute, Weyerbacher Hops Infusion, and a Magic Hat HIPA if you are interested.

EDIT #2: I've had to bump down to Magic Hat Hocus Pocus now... Never had this before but it tastes like a good, light pub ale. Like a Boddingtons Pub Ale with a little more flavor. Maybe its wheat? I'm guessing it has honey it in from the bee on the label? Anyone ever have this?

SilkkyBrew said:

Personally I will go to a bar with only BMC, only if I am dragged there...

I'm sure its the same for BMC fans to a microbrewery.

I just don't think you TRY to cater to this audience by serving BMC. Yes, you probably WILL lose SOME business, but you may also lose some other business if you serve BMC (the beer enthusiast who doesn't want to drink with BMC-types).

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No, what I meant about the opposite not being true was strict BMC'ers wouldn't go to a place that only sells craft/micro brews. I didn't mean a bar that just sold BMC.

todd_k said:

No, what I meant about the opposite not being true was strict BMC'ers wouldn't go to a place that only sells craft/micro brews. I didn't mean a bar that just sold BMC.

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Ah.. gotcha. Well, in any case, that's still my point. It doesn't matter if strict BMC'er won't come, they shouldn't be your target market.

Unless you can bridge the macroswill v. microbrewery gap somehow (very hard to do IMO), you need to choose your most suitable group and take your best shot. If you are going to open a micro-brewpub you need to cater to the micro crowd first and do something to draw in some of the "i drink bud (but not the i would die due to excess BMC consumption)" crowd. This doesn't mean serving BMC, however, just (as many have mentioned) serve some type of light lager or even a light lawnmower ale.

I like how this place handles it (bottom of the menu). Ya, I know they're not a brewpub, but you get the point.

It sort of - ya, we have it - but we're all sort of laughing at you for ordering it

rdwj said:

I like how this place handles it (bottom of the menu). Ya, I know they're not a brewpub, but you get the point.

It sort of - ya, we have it - but we're all sort of laughing at you for ordering it

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When are we going back there?

We've talked about this before. You're shooting yourself in the foot, and then pissing on the wound with an STD if you don't serve some BMC Li(gh)t(e)

^

That's pretty innovative, but they aren't really a micro-brewpub like dude was discussing starting though... They don't brew their own (do they?), just sell a good selection of others. Most places that sell a good selection of others, also sell some BMC and I think that's totally fine.

Just wouldn't sell it if I was brewing my own, it's like sacrilegeous or something...

Dude said:

Something that is REALLY important to me in all of this is a "pretty" brewery. I think you have to have copper. Period. It not only is historic in brewing, but shiny copper is just beautiful. I'm firm on that.

It is imperitive that in any brewpub I own--I want a completely glassed in brewery so you can see it from the brewpub. I want to be able to be brewing and have some little puppy dog looking dude (just like me) staring inside that brewery interested as hell. I want to be able (as the brewer) to motion for him to come back into the brewery and take it all in--sights, sounds, smells. I want to be able to give him a sample of a latest beer right from the fermenter.

You'd have a customer for life, I guarantee it.

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That's the way this place was:

It's Fredericksburg Brewing in Fredericksburg, Tx, great beer, great food and great atmosphere. We were there for a week and every night we were here, the head brewer even tried to give me some hops to bring home, only problem was I was on the bike and had no room for them.

^ That place looks sweeeeet.

Cheesefood said:

When are we going back there?

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ASAP. Next time, we have to make it a SWMBO event.

SilkkyBrew said:

That's pretty innovative, but they aren't really a micro-brewpub like dude was discussing starting though... They don't brew their own (do they?), just sell a good selection of others. Most places that sell a good selection of others, also sell some BMC and I think that's totally fine.

Just wouldn't sell it if I was brewing my own, it's like sacrilegeous or something...

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No, they don't brew, but I can't think of a single micro or brewpub in the Chicagoland area that doesn't serve commercial beer.

^ Obviously things are different from Chicagoland to here then... Most, not all, but most, micros I've been to only serve their own...

We have some pubs that sell a great selection of commercials/micros, but those pubs don't brew their own (except for one that I can think of).

..........

SilkkyBrew said:

^ Obviously things are different from Chicagoland to here then... Most, not all, but most, micros I've been to only serve their own...

We have some pubs that sell a great selection of commercials/micros, but those pubs don't brew their own (except for one that I can think of).

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Things are often quite different in Chicago. Pepsi beats Coke, Miller beats Bud and we play 16" softball. I've heard that it's not uncommon for advertising to work just about everywhere but Chicago too.

rdwj said:

Really? That's not my experience at all. Unless by 'real men', you mean guys that have one baseball cap for work and a nice one when they're going out.

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Eek. I have a hat for good and one for the sweaty head. Got some good salt lines on it a couple of weeks ago!

Orpheus said:

A brewpub! Cool!

I'm going to be your first customer! I'm going to be the prick who walks in and orders a Bud Light and a grilled cheese sammich!

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Ha! That's funny sh*t


Dan

I've been thinking about this thread and thought I'd add my 2 cents. First, a little background. I'm a relatively new beer enthusiast. Until about 2 years ago, I only drank BMC. Then I found out that my local liquor store sells microbrews and imports in mix and match 6 packs. I started sampling lots of different beers, but still bought mostly Coors or MGD because I liked it and the price was much better than the micros. (BTW, I had my first Coors in about 6 months over the weekend, and wow, was it disgusting. Tasted like fizzy water with a nasty aftertaste. I never knew!)

I've always been intrigued by brewpubs, but always left dissappointed because the beers were too dark and bitter. For most BMC drinkers anything over an SRM of 5 is a dark beer. The lightest beer you can find in most brewpubs is a pale ale with an SRM of about 8 and then it's way too damn hoppy. I'm still not a hop head. My style of choice is probably a Munich Helles or a good European Pils. Here's the point I'm trying to make. You've got to have some sort of light lager, probably a pre-prohibition style American Lager. I don't think you can have BMC in the house, but if you brew a good light lager it should satisfy most of the BMC drinkers. If it were my pub and someone came in asking for BMC, I'd offer them one of those with a money back guarantee if they don't like it. It'll help get people exposed to beer that truly does taste great and you might get them to try some of your other offerings. Just my 2 cents.

rdwj said:

ASAP. Next time, we have to make it a SWMBO event.

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World's colliding, Jerry!

Dude, if you really want to do it you need to do it right. Start looking at probrewer.com go check out soundbrew.com (especially read the General Notes on Brewery Projects).
Try volunteering at a local craft brewery, or brew pub. Consider attending school (Siebel or the Brewers Guild come to mind). Read books (Starting Your Own Brewery is a good, but pricey place to start).

Here's a question to ponder: Do you think a new brewpub would benefit more from leadership with brewing skills or business skills?

Obviously you need both. But I think that the Siebel's degree is a luxury. If you make good beer (which you'd obviously need a few medals from major contests to validate your quality), you're better off being a good businessman than pro-brewer.

So, given the choice, would you rather hire a business partner and run the brew-side operations, or run the brewery and hire a pro-brewer?

rdwj said:

No, they don't brew, but I can't think of a single micro or brewpub in the Chicagoland area that doesn't serve commercial beer.

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Goose Island doesn't serve commercial beer. Three Floyds does, but I think they need to because I'm not as impressed with their beer as most other people seem to be. They're in Indiana though.

Dude....

have you registered the Iron Orr Brewery name and logo yet?

Catfish said:

Dude, if you really want to do it you need to do it right. Start looking at probrewer.com go check out soundbrew.com (especially read the General Notes on Brewery Projects).
Try volunteering at a local craft brewery, or brew pub. Consider attending school (Siebel or the Brewers Guild come to mind). Read books (Starting Your Own Brewery is a good, but pricey place to start).

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I've been registered at probrewer for quite a while now. Great place--a little stuffy but I lurk, oh I lurk. I've volunteered numerous hours at our local brewery. I'm familiar with the process, the equipment, all of that. I know that being a brewer--there is NOTHING glamorous about the job. Heavy lifting, wet, dirty, long hours.

I am actually working on getting the military to fund the school. I have 4 years left in to convince them.

Cheesefood said:

Here's a question to ponder: Do you think a new brewpub would benefit more from leadership with brewing skills or business skills?

Obviously you need both. But I think that the Siebel's degree is a luxury. If you make good beer (which you'd obviously need a few medals from major contests to validate your quality), you're better off being a good businessman than pro-brewer.

So, given the choice, would you rather hire a business partner and run the brew-side operations, or run the brewery and hire a pro-brewer?

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Cheese, I totally agree. You've got have a strong business sense. My "partners" are all pretty sharp--we'd come up with something.

As for the brewing aspect--I know you can be a damn good brewer with no degree. Our LHBS owner is now the head brewer at a local microbrew here--no formal training.

I'd definitely prefer the brewing side--and honest i probably wouldn't be the brewmaster. I know WAY too many awesome homebrewers that I would contact first. I'd be a consultant.

Chimone said:

Dude....

have you registered the Iron Orr Brewery name and logo yet?

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I haven't because more than likely if I ever did this--the pub wouldn't be named this. I'd have potentially 3 other partners to think about. The IOB thing is merely fun for myself while I'm a homebrewer. Maybe, maybe someday it will go to higher heights though.


You know who hasn't made it to this thread yet? Hmmmmmmmm.

Dude said:

You know who hasn't made it to this thread yet? Hmmmmmmmm.

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he told you not to try this at home didnt he?

Toot said:

Goose Island doesn't serve commercial beer. Three Floyds does, but I think they need to because I'm not as impressed with their beer as most other people seem to be. They're in Indiana though.

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Goose Island is one of the two Micro/Brewpubs I've been to in IL (the other being Carlysle Brewing in Rockford), thats why rdwj's comment above caught me a little offguard/unexpected, but I took his word for it and believe it may be different there.

Maybe I just tend to frequent the micros who only sell their own, who knows? Almost every PA micro I've been to only sells their own; Appalachian, Rock Bottom, Barley Creek, Ottos, the list goes on...

Like I said, the only one I can think of that doesn't is Market Cross Pub (they sell BMC and other Micros) and, it's funny in a way, they are the only one I wouldn't consider to be 'prospering'.

EDIT: Carlyle Brewing was a pretty cool (different than most brewpubs I've been to though) place. Had maybe 10-12 tables and a long bar. Food menu was limited to 5-6 items. There it was really about the 7-9 beers they had on tap. But hey, while there I talked to the brewmaster and even he said they needed to expand to the building next door and increase their menu...

Dude, the Upstream Brewery in Omaha that i had dinner at last night did have other beers avaliable, NOT ON TAP, but if you had the desire for colored water you could get a BMC in the bottle.

I think they have upped their offerings since you were last ther, they now have 10 different brews of their own on tap at all times and one seasonal as well as one cask conditioned ale. They also sell in champagne bottles a special reserve brew aged over 1 year in oak barrels.

Cheesefood said:

Obviously you need both. But I think that the Siebel's degree is a luxury. If you make good beer (which you'd obviously need a few medals from major contests to validate your quality), you're better off being a good businessman than pro-brewer.

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Well, he already has the Dominion Cup so that's a good start!

A pub allows you to make one beer today, another tomorrow, while a micro means making the same beer again and again. Micros are production facilities, pubs are artist studios.

If I had a pub I would ban BMC. I might sell other locals, but most likely I would just sell my own.

Now, I have been thinking of having a beer contracted at a local brewery for regional sale, but that is a different discussion all together and if I am not careful, one of those Mods will yank my post for getting off-topic!

I wouldn't do the brass. Too hard to keep clean and polished, unless you have a young co-ed who might need a job...