mash consistency
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Baron von BeeGee
Beer Bully
Worst case is enzyme denaturation. However, at 2.5qts/lb I don't think you're in too bad a shape...probably just suffer a bit on the efficiency.
Darth Konvel
Well-Known Member
You probably will end up with less fermentable sugars then normal (although this also depends on your temps), so you could have a slightly higher FG then you would have otherwise due to the enzyme denaturing BG mentioned. I wouldn't worry about it.
that's the "shutting down" of the enzymes. ie; they stop doing the work of converting starch to sugar.
-walker
-walker
2.5 quarts per pound isn't a problem. The two mini-mash porters I did last weekend had about four pounds of grain and the kit said 2.5 gallons @ 160F. They came out exactly on for the OG. The key is, the enzymes are more diluted and will take a little longer to convert. If you mash an hour, you should be fine.
Its highly unlikely that a dilute mash will cause enzyme denaturation. Enzyme denaturation is commonly caused by heat and/or major pH changes (other methods exist such as detergent). Denaturation is the destruction of the 3 dimensional structure of the enzyme so it is no longer active. The most likely effect of a dilute mash is decreased efficiency due to rate of diffusion of the starch/enzyme mixture. Considering modern grain is highly modified and there are an excess of enzymes a dilute mash should be no problem.
-Eric
-Eric
Baron von BeeGee
Beer Bully
Dilute mashes result in less substrate for beta-amylase to latch onto, as well as the enzymes being less heat-stable and hence subject to denaturation. Like I said, efficiency may suffer some.
BeeGee said:
Yes, efficiency may suffer that you are 100% correct.
Dilute mashes result in a lower substrate density but not less substrate in a closed system unless you spill more in a dilute system and we would have to look at what order enzyme kinetics we are talking about to determine if there would be statistical difference.
The amalyase enzyme is amazingly stable and a dilute mash will not hurt the tertiary/quantinary structure. The half-life of beta-amylase in 18.2 M-ohm water is 10 years at -20 d c, >72 hours at 37 d c and > 24 h at 75 deg C.* I could go on, but it can be boring! However, one cool study showed the stability of alpha and beta-amalyase being nearly 3 months at 70deg C on a solid phase system.
Efficiency will suffer but not due to enzyme stability or denaturation. Efficiency may suffer due to overall substrate concentration but minimally. We could always do a Eadie-Hofstee plot if you want to have fun (more accurate than Lineweaver Burke plots)
. -Eric
* following standard scientific equations of:
Half live= ln2/kd where kd is the deactivation constant
Darth Konvel
Well-Known Member
Good to hear, eolle. Thanks for filling us in. I have read in a few places that the beta-amalyase enzyme was not as stable as the alpha-, and that the diluted levels of substrate may cause an issue for it (the beta enzyme that is). Always good to have another thing not to worry about
Baron von BeeGee
Beer Bully
Thanks for the info, eolle. I did intend lower substrate density. As far as denaturation, I got my info from:
byo.com/feature/480.htm (sorry if these links don't work...byo is fartsmiltered at work)
And:
byo.com/mrwizard/1026.html
Believe me, I've been a big proponent of enzymes not instantly denaturing at higher temperatures and understand there is some hysteresis associated with conditions that result in denaturation. However, based on the above information I'm inclined to believe that thin mash conditions (clearly beyond 2.5qts/lb which people successfully use for decoction mashes) can and do result in a degree of denaturation of beta-amylase activity.
As far as that other stuff, I'm no biochemist and clearly don't have the breadth of knowledge you do, so I look forward to hearing more.
byo.com/feature/480.htm (sorry if these links don't work...byo is fartsmiltered at work)
And:
byo.com/mrwizard/1026.html
Believe me, I've been a big proponent of enzymes not instantly denaturing at higher temperatures and understand there is some hysteresis associated with conditions that result in denaturation. However, based on the above information I'm inclined to believe that thin mash conditions (clearly beyond 2.5qts/lb which people successfully use for decoction mashes) can and do result in a degree of denaturation of beta-amylase activity.
As far as that other stuff, I'm no biochemist and clearly don't have the breadth of knowledge you do, so I look forward to hearing more.
Thats a really good question....
Efficiency and space limitations are the main reasons. I have made single step beers with no sparge but you require a HUGE mash/laughter tun and you want to add about 10-20% onto your grain bill due to efficiency of removal of the sugar water. I've used these for starters.
1. If you want to make a 5.5 gal batch you need a mash/laughter tun capable of handeling around 7 gal of water and around 10-11 lbs or grain. I'd rather due a thicker mash and get twice the amount of beer. However, I've done something similar (on a small scale) when I make starter wort that I then boil and bottle for later use.
2. Efficiency. Without sparging if your mash is at 1.060 and you drain it off....the remaining sugar water will be at 1.060. Sparging "washes" the grain bed. I can do the calculations to determine the exact loss of efficiency but I would say it would be in the 15 to 25% range (depends on grain bed size). Also, rate of conversion will decrease. In a thick mash I've seen conversion complete in around 20-30 min (1.2:1) (Hey...I was in a hurry and wanted to get the beer done). In a very dilute mash for the starters it took longer to convert.
-Eric
Efficiency and space limitations are the main reasons. I have made single step beers with no sparge but you require a HUGE mash/laughter tun and you want to add about 10-20% onto your grain bill due to efficiency of removal of the sugar water. I've used these for starters.
1. If you want to make a 5.5 gal batch you need a mash/laughter tun capable of handeling around 7 gal of water and around 10-11 lbs or grain. I'd rather due a thicker mash and get twice the amount of beer. However, I've done something similar (on a small scale) when I make starter wort that I then boil and bottle for later use.
2. Efficiency. Without sparging if your mash is at 1.060 and you drain it off....the remaining sugar water will be at 1.060. Sparging "washes" the grain bed. I can do the calculations to determine the exact loss of efficiency but I would say it would be in the 15 to 25% range (depends on grain bed size). Also, rate of conversion will decrease. In a thick mash I've seen conversion complete in around 20-30 min (1.2:1) (Hey...I was in a hurry and wanted to get the beer done). In a very dilute mash for the starters it took longer to convert.
-Eric
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