American Saison idea

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Prionburger

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Throwing this idea out there.

Saison with American ingredients. Huge head, dank hops, American malts, and funk. Aged for 6 months to a year with some oak. I bet someone has thought of this before.

For a 6 gallon batch:

OG 1.060 IBU ~37

10 Lbs American pilsner
2 lbs Vienna
1 lb flaked wheat

Bittering hops:

~1.5oz Northern Brewer 60 min

Later additions:

~0.5oz Cluster 30 min

~1.5oz Cluster 1 min (or maybe dry hop before bottling)

Yeast: Small active starter of Jolly Pumpkin dregs, and a starter of 3711 French Saison, added at the same time. Maybe 3724 for more residual sugar/more funk.

American oak cubes would be added in secondary.

Conditioning in champagne bottles to ~4 volumes.

Disaster?
 
Looks pretty awesome to me, although I'm not sure what funk you're going to get from the Belgian Saison yeast. From my experience this one ferments pretty clean and dry. Maybe a little bit of spice character. Anywho, if its funk you're after you may want some lacto or brett in there at some point. Let me know how it turns out!
 
Prionburger said:
Throwing this idea out there.

Saison with American ingredients. Huge head, dank hops, American malts, and funk. Aged for 6 months to a year with some oak. I bet someone has thought of this before.

For a 6 gallon batch:

OG 1.060 IBU ~37

10 Lbs American pilsner
2 lbs Vienna
1 lb flaked wheat

Bittering hops:

~1.5oz Northern Brewer 60 min

Later additions:

~0.5oz Cluster 30 min

~1.5oz Cluster 1 min (or maybe dry hop before bottling)

Yeast: Small active starter of Jolly Pumpkin dregs, and a starter of 3711 French Saison, added at the same time. Maybe 3724 for more residual sugar/more funk.

American oak cubes would be added in secondary.

Conditioning in champagne bottles to ~4 volumes.

Disaster?

Brewed one with straight American 2 row, mt. Hood and Columbus. Dh with Columbus. Used Dupont strain from WL. Didn't last long at the party. Went over well with the ladies, too!
 
Yeah, Jolly Pumpkin dregs for some mixed fermentation. If I can snag some WLP670 left-overs, I may use that instead of 565/3724.

The vienna is to boost the maltiness a bit. I like what it does in EdWort's pale ale. Never used it in a Saison. I did a SMASH saison before and wanted a bit more maltiness.

That's awesome zendog! When it goes well with the ladies you know it's a winner. Hopefully mine will have too much sour horse-vomit-blanket for anyone but the nerdliest of beer nerds.

Yeah, corn... You're right, but I'm afraid of corn! But you're right... Corn. :ban:
 
37 IBUs will inhibit a lot of the the funk from the Jolly Pumpkin dregs. Pedio and Lacto need under roughly 10 IBUs to work. The antibacterial action of hops works particularly well inhibiting these. I'd suggest splitting the batch, 3711 in one half, and funk the other. Hop the 3711 high enough to get 37 IBUs after blending, don't hop the other half and funk it. After both are complete fermenting/souring, blend to taste, and package. You may even try splitting it 75/25, 3711/dregs, to prevent it from being too sour.
 
For sure those acids are going to inhibit microbes, but check it out: Madrugada Obscura is hopped at about 36 IBU. That thing gets some pretty awesome sourness as it gets close to a year old. I bet those bugs will do whatever they do in a 37 beer. It'll make a difference in the kind of funking though, for sure. No idea how it works with 3724 or 3711 either. 3724 may attenuate less that WLP550, so I may get even more bug food than the corresponding Jolly Pumpkin beer!

That's a good idea about blending a funked batch with a less funked one. Maybe on infected only with brett, and one soured?
 
My thought is to just do it all in one fermentor. You'll get sourness even at 37ibus. Jolly Pumpkin has bacteria with house character that are stronger more resilient strains than what WYeast and White Labs sell. Just throw it all in there. The funk and sourness may not be very pronounced if you use 3711 because that will consume damn near every sugar present. I did a saison with a similar malt bill beginning of summer with 3711 and it went down to 1.005. So I'd just do a dupont strain and JP or something.
 
You guys positive that they ferment in a single vessel, bacteria working at 36 ibus, one wort, no blending?
 
There most certainly is blending. I haven't done enough research but its my understanding that lambic producers use 3 year aged hops with little to no alpha acid because they don't want the bitterness. However the bateriostatic properties of the hops still do their job to inhibit some Enterobacteriaceae and Lactobacillus. Lactobacillus is still an aspect of lambic production but the workhorses of a lambic ferment is the Brettanomyces and Pediococcus.

One of the reasons everyone suggests low IBUs in many sour beer is because you don't need the hop bitterness to balance sweetness. Sours have acid to provide that role really. Also with the White Labs and Wyeast Lactobacillus delbrueckii have a very low alpha acid tolerance. L. delbrueckii are a homofermentative species of lactobacillus only producing lactic acid and CO2. Other strains can produce other metabolites which may or may not be desirable in beer.

Others like Oldsock may have more insight. I'm just starting to dig into the geekdom of sour and wild beers. Also don't take my word as gospel I may have misread or misunderstood something that I repeated above.
 
Others like Oldsock may have more insight. I'm just starting to dig into the geekdom of sour and wild beers. Also don't take my word as gospel I may have misread or misunderstood something that I repeated above.

True man, I'm in the same boat, not trying to lecture anyone here I was just trying to get things straight for the OP based on my concerns, which are, of course, not even near an expert level.

Did find this from Vinne though on babblebelt, awesome slideshow.

http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/brew_resource/RRsour_beer_presentation.ppt

Lacto gets slowed down by it, but not fully inhibited, and pedio is pretty much resistant, all per the slideshow. Check it out!
 
Stewing on this idea still. Here's what I've got:

I'm thinking of using Willamette instead of Northern Brewer for the bittering, and Cluster for the aroma. Perhaps a touch of Crystal to support the Cluster aroma, but perhaps not.

I'll dump the Vienna for simplicity (for now).

And corn! Just a pound.

OG will be ~1.060

86% American pilsner--maybe I'm stuck with German/Belgian pils or American pale.
7% Flaked Wheat
7% Flaked Corn

I'll use Wyeast 3724 with the MrMalty calculator, and pitch some JP dregs in primary before ferment.
 
Brewing a clean version of this right now to grow yeast.

12Lb Weyermann pilsner
1 Lb Flaked Barley
1 Lb Flaked Corn

Mashed at 145-147f for 90 minutes, then brought to 162f at mashout.

Target OG will be about 1.062

I'm going to bitter with Wilamette, and then finish mostly with Cluster.

60 minutes Willamette 32 IBU (Rager)

10 minutes 0.5oz cluster, 0.25oz Willamette

0 minutes 1.5oz cluster, 0.25oz Willamette

Total IBUs will be about 40 from Rager.

Pretty striking how much more aroma the Willamette hops have. We'll see what happens when I put the huge Cluster charge in at the end.

Fermenting with WLP566 Saison II
 
Here's throwing the corn in:

Cluster_Saison_mash_with_Corn.jpg


The mash:

Cluster_Saison_Mash.jpg


And in the fermenter (bottom). I use a big styrofoam box with a heating pad+controller for temp control.

Cluster_Saison_in_Fermenter.jpg


Cluster_Saison_Hydrometer.jpg


The O.G. ended up at 1.065. Pretty big jump in my efficiency. I couldn't slow the boil down enough to prevent over-shooting. I wonder if it was from the corn converting more efficiently than malt.
 
Should have kept the Vienna and added some rye in there too. I'm sure it'll be good as is though. I like complex malt character.
 
Yeah in the future I may fix up the malt bill a bit to make it golden colored. Funny you said rye, because when I passed the grain bucket full of rye malt, it took a lot of willpower to avoid throwing it in.

I thought it would be best to start off simple and pale, so I could concentrate on analyzing the hop profile, which is the most likely flaw I expect. Also, from my experience, simple pale beers are always delicious. Darker malts on the other hand are an area where I screw up frequently.

And an update: Fermentation started at 68f, and I brought it to 77 over 3 days. I'll hold it at 78 for a week after that. Unlike the other saison strains I've used (3724, 3725, 3711), this one needed a blowoff tube! Only a little bit though. I gave it a huge starter and a rich wort, plenty of oxygen, and little headspace, so I was asking for it.
 
rye would have been a natural, but i love the corn addition here... my next beer is highly likely a saison and i've been wanting to do a "black saison" and i'm curious as to how this comes out...
 
This was my last grain bill for a saison I did that got an Honorable mention and scored 39 being completely flat. I used a combination of the 3725 and a starter built up from a bottle of Fantome which I am quite sure had bugs of some sort in it. It came out really tart and fruity. Finished at 1.003

7.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 56.00 %
1.50 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 12.00 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 8.00 %
1.00 lb Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 8.00 %
0.50 lb Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 4.00 %
0.50 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 4.00 %
0.25 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 2.00 %
0.25 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.00 %
0.50 lb Candi Sugar, Clear (0.5 SRM) Sugar 4.00 %
1 Pkgs Belgian Saison (Wyeast Labs #3724) Yeast-Ale
 
Flat as in no carbonation?

Yup. I bottled it 5 days before the comp because I read the date wrong. Sent it in anyway to see what kind of feedback I'd get besides that. Both judges were Nationally recognized and comment that they loved it. Had it been carbed, they said it was solidly in the 40's and a BOS round beer.
The other half of the 10 gallon batch went on Brett dregs from a Trinity Farmhouse Provisional and that just got bottle. Tasting that at the time of bottling was impressive.
 
This was my last grain bill for a saison I did that got an Honorable mention and scored 39 being completely flat. I used a combination of the 3725 and a starter built up from a bottle of Fantome which I am quite sure had bugs of some sort in it. It came out really tart and fruity. Finished at 1.003

7.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 56.00 %
1.50 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 12.00 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 8.00 %
1.00 lb Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 8.00 %
0.50 lb Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 4.00 %
0.50 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 4.00 %
0.25 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 2.00 %
0.25 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.00 %
0.50 lb Candi Sugar, Clear (0.5 SRM) Sugar 4.00 %
1 Pkgs Belgian Saison (Wyeast Labs #3724) Yeast-Ale

Cool looking recipe. Is this for a 5G batch? How long did you mash and what temp did you ferment at?

I am doing a BdG this weekend with the 3725.

-Josh
 
5.5 gallon. Did a 20 min rest at 130 then 60 min at 152. Started fermenting at 68 and tamped to 78 at peak of fermentation the let it fall after it slowed down.
 
Subscribed! Just last weekend I started down a similar road. Despite this being my first saison, I wanted to Americanize it. For five gallons, I used 9 pounds of Colorado pilsner, 2 pounds of rye, and half a pound of amber candi sugar. Hopped with Mt Hood and some late Crystal.

My mash went south as I was attempting to hit my final hold, as I ran out of propane. I held it as high as I could, but it didn't quite make it to 155 and I didn't get a chance to mash out until the sparge. Good thing I boiled my sparge water first!

In any case, my final volume is only 4.5 gallons, but my gravity is spot-on. I used 3724 and plan on oaking a portion of it. So far, the fermentation is going well. It's in a cooler surrounded by water and temps have crawled up to the eighties. Can't wait to see what happens next!

I am very interested to see how the other brews in this thread go as well. :mug:
 
Sinkman- I believe we are almost neighbors! CO Malting rocks!

I think you guys are making the malt bill too complicated. There are some real nice subtle funk flavors from the saison yeasts that might get lost. For saisons, I say KISS. To Americanize it, just use the classic ipa hops, but not too much!
 
Sinkman- I believe we are almost neighbors! CO Malting rocks!

I think you guys are making the malt bill too complicated. There are some real nice subtle funk flavors from the saison yeasts that might get lost. For saisons, I say KISS. To Americanize it, just use the classic ipa hops, but not too much!

Listen to the BN podcast with Jason Yester of Trinity brewing.... I get tons of funk from my primary yeast that comes through brett also.
 
Update: I just racked the clean version into one of my empty carboys. Then I pitched some JP dregs! :ban::ban::ban:

American_Saison_racking.jpg


American_Saison_Racking_2.jpg


My half tap water/half beer hydrometer sample came out at 1.004... so this beer finished at 1.008? Cool if it did!

Flavor is very nice. Fruits, banana, bit of pepper, with a sharp bitter finish. No sign of the corn yet, or the cluster hops. Maybe it needs time to settle and/or thin out.

I have 11 pounds of belgian pilsner malt kicking around, so I'm going to repitch into another Willamette/Cluster saison. This time clean, low gravity, and destined for a keg soon because I'm almost out of beer. :drunk:

And Ugh! Looks like an oily sheen is forming on the top. Must be some keg lube from the sanitizer I used. The head retention may be fine but I'm still annoyed.
 
Listen to the BN podcast with Jason Yester of Trinity brewing....

I'll have to track that down. I've heard good things about Trinity.

Update: It's been a week and I may be in the middle of my first stuck fermentation. I know 3711 is a beast and all, but I expected more. So far, the beer has dropped from 1.057 down to 1.030. Ferm seemed pretty robust at first. The fermenter is in an insulated cooler and rose pretty quickly to about 82 degrees, then dropped to 78 and has been there ever since. I pitched a one liter starter from a stir plate.

I have no problem dumping some more yeast in or adding a bit of sugar to get the boys restarted, or even just stirring up that cake. Or all three! I just don't know if this famously finnicky yeast just needs more time to catch up.

Any thoughts?
 
Sinkman, how much yeast did you pitch? I've never heard of 3711 ever getting stuck.
 
Yeah, I've never had 3711 get stuck. I've underpitched with it, and gave it horrible temperature control, yet it still finished attenuating my beer.

I'm not a huge fan of 3711's flavor profile though. Not enough banana or phenols or pepper.

As for the saison I brewed last night:

6 gallon batch:

11 Lbs belgian pilsner that was milled and sat on the table for 4 weeks :(
4oz cane sugar for giggles

mashed at 145f for 1.5 hours, raised it to 155 for the last 10 minutes to speed conversion up.

90 minute boil

1oz 5.3% Willamette at 60 minutes
1.5oz 7% Cluster at knock out
0.5oz 5.3% Willamette at knock out

Should come out at about 30ibus

OG was 1.053. Pitched 250ml thin slurry harvested the day of from my first clusterized Saison. Gave it 2 minutes of pure O2. Pitched at 69f.

This morning I checked it, and the yeast was already about to crawl out of the airlock, so I put yet another blowoff tube on it. Weird that WLP566 does this when 3724, 3725, and 3711 don't.
 
Banana esters in a saison? Yuck! Does that white labs strain put out a lot of isoamyl acetate(sp)?
 
Not sure... Maybe it was more in the bubblegum realm of flavors. I'm definitely not getting as much perceived banana as with 1214 (which I love).

WLP566 definitely has more fruit going on than 3711, though.
 
Heh. Totally off. I used 3724. In any case, I used a 1L starter. Starter was going pretty hot when I dumped it in.

On testing today, I was greeted with 1.020. I gave the brew a little stir and figured it would continue its business. It was actually warmer in there today, up to 80 again. It seems to be bubbling every ten seconds or so. I'll likely just let it rest and leave it alone. Forget about the secondary. Three more weeks in primary can't hurt, right?

In other news, my search for Saison Dupont at my local store was met with no Saison, but some excellent new brews from Mikkeler. At the risk oh hijacking the thread, has anybody else tasted their Black Hole series?
 
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