AAA critique

This is like my 4th attempt at this style. My 3rd attempt came out poorly balanced (too hoppy, no body).

I'll note some changes. Keep in mind this is designed for 58% efficiency.

5.5gallons
Grain Bill:
10# US Pale 2-row
1# 60L (previous batch was 1/2#)
1/4# malto dextrine (wasn't in previous batch)
1# Amber DME (in a 1 gallon starter - I make big starters)

Hops:
1.5 oz cascade @ 60 (was 1oz columbus before)
1oz cascade @ 15
1/2oz cascade @ 5
1/2oz cascade dry hopped

Yeast:
Wyeast 1098 British Ale in 1gallon starter - I have this on hand

Is this going to come out too grapefruity? Should I consider changing the bittering hop to something more neutral?

I made something similar recently - unfortunately it'll be at least 3 more weeks until I bottle, otherwise I could share more. I wouldn't think it would be "grapefruity" - maybe more piney with some citrus.

Here's the recipe I did FWIW:

9.5 lbs (9 lbs 8 oz) 2-row
0.5 lb (8 oz) Munich
0.5 lb (8 oz) Crystal 40L
0.25 lb (4 oz) Crystal 60L
0.25 lb (4 oz) Crystal 80L
0.125 lb (2 oz) roasted barley

mash 154F for 60 min.

1.5 oz Cascade @ 60 minutes
0.5 oz Cascade @ 15 minutes
0.5 oz Willamette @ 15 minutes
1 tsp. Irish Moss @ 15 minutes
0.5 oz Cascade @ 5 minutes
0.5 oz Willamette @ 5 minutes

Wyeast 1056

What's your mash schedule?

Single temp infusion. I haven't calculated it yet. I would guess mash in water around 170°F and hold for 60 minutes.

petep1980 said:

Single temp infusion. I haven't calculated it yet. I would guess mash in water around 170°F and hold for 60 minutes.

Click to expand...

That's the crucial piece in the puzzle with your issues regarding body.

How about 158° for 45 minutes?

petep1980 said:

How about 158° for 45 minutes?

Click to expand...

I'd think 153-154° is more appropriate, although for perspective, Lagunitas IPA is mashed at 160°.

Needs a bit more Crystal and a lot more different types of Crystal. See the entry on American Amber Ale in the HBT Wiki. AAA is a really great style, and there are definitely ways to get there easily.

Body will come from the solid Crystal-malt backbone as well as the mash profile. Again, see the HBT article.

If I were you, I'd use a half-pound of 40L Crystal and 1/4-lb each of 80L and 120L.

Drop the maltodextrine. Mash at ~155°F.

Maintain the Cascades. AAA is a style in which the American hops character must be obvious.

I'd choose another yeast. 1098 will throw too many esters, IMO. I'd just use S-05 and call it a day! Speaking of yeast, you don't have to pitch a whacking great starter; build your big starter, ferment to completion, chill the starter flask, decant spent starter 'beer', calculate and pitch slurry. Far less impact on the finished beer, same great yeast management (cell count).

Cheers,

Bob

I wondered when Bob would chime in - just the mention of AAA and ABA and he shows up on cue

here's the wiki page he references:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/American_Amber_Ale

AAA is a style that I have no experience in brewing, but lots of experience drinking!

Bob - before you edited your post to flesh out the answer a bit more, I was thinking a mix of crystal malts (40/80/120) in roughly the amounts you had listed! I'm glad that I was on the right track.

I do believe I'll have cobble a recipe together myself sooner than later.

The yeast is staying. I hate spending money on yeast, and I've had success with that. I'm stuck at LHBS buying minimum of 1# bags, so making the crystal that complex may not be prudent.

But I can definately keep the hops as is and lose the malto dextrine? That'll be killer in keeping costs down.

Maltodextrin is a bandaid fix, IMO. Use technique to get the body that you want, not superfluous ingredients.

Re: the crystal malts. I'd buy a pound of C40, C80 and C120 from your LHBS and crush the amount that you need using a ziploc bag and a rolling pin, if you don't have a mill.

You really need s'more crystal malt complexity in the recipe - C60 alone will just be caramelly sweet, especially in that large a volume per 5 gallons.

As an aside, why such low assumed efficiency? What sort of system are you using to mash?

I once pulled a 58% and since I prefer malt over hops I design my recipes that way. I know I'll only miss up, therefore I have a buffer for when I overshoot my efficiency.

I'll pick up the extra crytal then. The yeast is staying the same though.

If you're dead set on using 1098, ferment it as far down the lower end of the range as you can manage to keep the esters in check.

I still think US-05 (dry yeast) is a much better choice for this recipe; clean, neutral ale yeast with high attenuation.

flyangler18 said:

If you're dead set on using 1098, ferment it as far down the lower end of the range as you can manage to keep the esters in check.

I still think US-05 (dry yeast) is a much better choice for this recipe; clean, neutral ale yeast with high attenuation.

Click to expand...

I've been using 1098 and I've had hardly any estrers at all. At least none I can detect.

I've used 1056 (the liquid form of US-05), and the beer came up uber dry.

Of course re-reading this I'll try the US-05 now.

petep1980 said:

I've been using 1098 and I've had hardly any estrers at all. At least none I can detect.

I've used 1056 (the liquid form of US-05), and the beer came up uber dry.

Of course re-reading this I'll try the US-05 now.

Click to expand...

If I do the dry yeast, therefore eliminating my starter, should I just up the Pale Malt to make up for the missing DME I use in the starter (I don't usually decant).

petep1980 said:

If I do the dry yeast, therefore eliminating my starter, should I just up the Pale Malt to make up for the missing DME I use in the starter (I don't usually decant).

Click to expand...

Yep. What's the OG of the recipe?

flyangler18 said:

Yep. What's the OG of the recipe?

Click to expand...

I dunno, anywhere towards the bottom end of the style, so 1.046-1.050?

Just punched it into BeerTools, looks like you'll need to bump the pale malt to 13 lbs to get an OG of 1.047 with 8 oz C60 and 4 oz C80 and C120 at 58% efficiency.

That's also assuming 8.0 preboil and 6.0 gallons at the end of the boil for 5.5 into the fermenter (which is how I do all my recipes).

Wait, why would you adjust it? Assuming you arent making your starters greater than 1.047, which you shouldn't be, then you're just adding beer to beer essentially. Unless, you are talking about volume of beer as opposed to OG. I wouldn't worry about the quart difference, but I guess there's no reason not to if that's what you want. You'd worrying about a few more ounces of grain or a gravity point or two, not worth it if you are buying things on whole pound increments.

I'd have to adjust it because I'd lose the 1# DME by not pitching it.

Hmm, beersmith says 12# 2-row with 1/2# 40L, 1/4# 80L & 1/4# 120L at 58% efficiency will get me 1.050.

Hmm, beersmith says 12# 2-row with 1/2# 40L, 1/4# 80L & 1/4# 120L at 58% efficiency will get me 1.050.

Click to expand...

Just a slight variation in the programs I imagine - I was guessing about your preboil/postboil numbers and adjusting it to my system.

My tuppence - I'd look to improving on that efficiency number a bit to further trim cost; of course, if you're consistently hitting that number, tell me to stuff it.

AZ_IPA said:

I wondered when Bob would chime in - just the mention of AAA and ABA and he shows up on cue

Click to expand...

I live but to serve....

...two of my favorite styles!

Pete,

Use what yeast you like. If you're not getting tons of esters from your 1098, RDW(HAHBifyoulike). I used to brew a smashing AAA with White Labs Cal V, which at the temperature I chose threw off a bunch of fruit. It's just that the "classic" examples of the style have very little if any ester character.

For basic styles like this, I prefer dry yeast. While you can't really brew a Tripel or Hefeweizen with it, you can brew damn near any American or British beer with dry yeast. Hell, I hardly ever bother buying liquid yeast anymore.

Jason is right - Maltodextrin is a crutch. Although, if your efficiency is really 58% on average, there are a bunch of other things you need to address in your mashing technique before you start fiddling about with other variables. While your reasoning makes a certain amount of sense - you'll only 'miss up' - you really ought to adjust your recipes and techniques to hit your targets. Precision is fun!

Cheers,

Bob

Well this is getting back into all grain after my last couple all grain batchs SUCKED. I really should approach my next AG as if it's the first time approaching it.

Oh yea, I didn't realize you were using a whole gallon starter. That is pretty significant. If you are looking for the same volume and the same gravity, you should adjust. Otherwise, just brew as normal and have a gallon less.