How much should I worry about water chemestry?

So I am reading a ton of books and all of them say that I should work with my water profile to make the beer authentic and what not. I have good tap water, it's very clean, tastes great and I have never had a problem brewing with it. I haven't checked the ph of my mash but I am fairly sure it's not too high, should I do this?

I also read from "Designing great beer" that only 1/10 people who get into the second round actually fiddle with their water.

Basically, am I just opening up an enormous can of worms like the to secondary or not to secondary?

Contact your city and get a water report.

For the most part if the water taste good, it will make good beer.

If you mash then Ph comes in to the picture. Only if your water is very hard or very soft do you really need to worry even then.

Basically don't need worry about the water chemistry until you understand the AG brewing process and what is going on in the mash tun. Then get your water report and go from there.

a ward labs report is cheap and handy. people here will give you some guidelines if you post your results as to what your water is good for, and how you may want to adjust for light or dark beers.

After I got my ward report, the most significant thing to me was how low in calcium my water is. So even if I hadn't switched to all grain, I'd have still found that information useful for the sake of providing my yeast with enough calcium.

If you have good water, you can either choose to look into water chemistry or not. Just be sure to look into chloramine as water can taste good despite it's presence.

But it's like anything else with brewing. It depends on how much control you want. But more importantly, it depends on whether or not you are able to make the beer you want without looking into water chemistry.

id give this a read: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

dcp27 said:

id give this a read: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

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That thread is a wonderful resource. Adjusting water is actually quite simple if you allow it to be (at least not as intimidating as it seems). My suggestion is to follow ajdelange's recommendations within that thread and you'll see a nice improvement in your beers.

My Brew Chart/Workbook below in my signature has TH's water adjustment tool along with ajdelange's recommendations built into it. Makes water adjustment an easy thing for the most part (once you have water profile from your municipality). It's free to download. If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask.

cp

Oh sorry, to clerify, I do understand is going on in the mash and I do have a water report. It's nice that where I live they put it on line. I gathered that from the report I have good water with medium softness. The problem is that basically I don't honestly know if I should care about what water and just brew like normal or if this really will give significant improvement. I can spend my time playing with the water or I could spend my time doing other things beer related, like reading how to brew all of the various styles (which I will do anyway but regardless). Basically, will I see payoffs if I really research and learn how to manipulate the water chemistry?

My water report can be found here:

http://natickma.gov/Public_Documents/NatickMA_Pubworks/images/waterqualityreport.pdf

I would copy and paste but it's from a pdf and doesn't really paste well. Scroll all the way down and it's on the very last page.

Thank you for the link, it is quite useful! From what I gathered I have slightly level of elevated sodium, but not too bad. What does it look like to others?

Water chemistry is not worth worrying about.


But it is worth developing an understanding.

Hardness from 50 to 150 ppm (your water based on that report) is good for most ales.

If you want to duplicate water from different areas you will need more info. The links above list some good sources for testing.

I did not realize ale vs lager had any bearing on water chemistry. I thought it was just a matter of adjusting ph for your mash based on the color of your beer, and the chloride to sulfate ratio to accentuate malt vs bitterness, or to balance the two.

that and ensuring that your yeast have the necessary minerals to do their jobs.

thegerm said:

I did not realize ale vs lager had any bearing on water chemistry. I thought it was just a matter of adjusting ph for your mash based on the color of your beer, and the chloride to sulfate ratio to accentuate malt vs bitterness, or to balance the two.

that and ensuring that your yeast have the necessary minerals to do their jobs.

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I quess I should have worded that better. Thanks for explaining what I was trying to find a short way of saying.

Yea, I knew what you meant. Basically I have good water for doing most ale styles from Belgium, England and Scotland. Also then a Hells bock which is nice. For the German lagers I would want to alter the water chemistry to match the locations if I choose to go down this route.

Actually one of the hardest things I have found is trying to get a lighter colored beer, but I did a Pilsner and it came out okay but my Heffs and pale ales always turn out amber. The color was spot on for the pils, but I missed the mash temps etc. I think my color problems might have to do with the longer than normal boils than with the water chemistry though. Thank you for the information! This gives me much more to go on!

I always follow the instructions of the first batch of beer I made. To quote "Relax, take your time, pop open a beer from a previous batch, and have fun!" Too many people take this hobby way to serious. If your beer tastes good and gives you a buzz, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!! Sometimes ignorance is bliss!

asterix404 said:

. I haven't checked the ph of my mash but I am fairly sure it's not too high, should I do this?

I also read from "Designing great beer" that only 1/10 people who get into the second round actually fiddle with their water.

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Once I started working with water, my beers took a *huge* leap. I'm mystified why everybody says, "Look, if the water tastes good, don't worry."

That's simply not true -- and what I'm realizing is that if proper water chemistry was talked more about it at the intro level, we'd see much, much better homebrews.

Now -- don't get me wrong -- I know why it's not talked about: it's complex and if you add salts or balance your water in the wrong way, you'll make alka-seltzer. I understand that.

But if you (a) get a pH meter (not strips!), (b) take your pH at room temp, (c) analyze your water properly (via a city full report or Ward labs), and (d) use a spreadsheet like Bru'n water -- you'll see a significant improvement with all of your beers.

The other advice I'd give (just because I've received it many times over the past several months) is essentially ignore Palmer's spreadsheets and concern over residual alkalinity. Ignore Palmer, in other words. My route has been to worry about pH, use acid malt where applicable, and measure the pH with a good pH at room temp -- this has been the key for me.

Not to knock Palmer, but I realize his obsession with SRM and RA is simply wrong. It doesn't work in most cases -- and I find basic room temperature pH measurement to be the real key (regardless of SRM).

Oh, I should get a ph meter. Any recommendations on one? I have been really worried about going to strips just because I have used them and I don't really like them. Very hard for me to read well. So basically, really read Noonan and try to match water chemistry with what the conditions of the brew is. I really do like Palmer but at this stage in my brewing I am more at the Level of Brewing Lager Beers, then how to brew, which is so say that I got about 90% of what Noonan was saying, and he is brilliant. I will use Bru'n Water and I think I will try this out.

To be 100% honest, I don't actually care at all about SRM. and Noonan brings up the alkalinity a lot but I think only to describe and affect color. I suppose, I am not after color changes so I just sort of ignored it anyway, but I do need to go back through the water issue. Do you know if brewing chemistry goes into these details about water? I have a very hard time figuring out the bio-chem stuff, but straight up chem is more or less understandable. Basically I can understand what happens when you mix chemicals together but when it comes to how yeast breaks down Maltase into Maltose and then dextrose, it's just really confusing.

asterix404 said:

Oh, I should get a ph meter. Any recommendations on one?

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I bought this one:

http://morebeer.com/view_product/18707//pH_Meter_-_Phep_5

Along with the storage solution and the calibration solutions.

In terms of the complexity of water chemistry? It's extremely complex -- there's no getting around it. But the Bru'n water spreadsheet (which at first looks complex -- but after several brews it becomes simple to fill out and is very accurate) makes the complexity of the chemistry quite manageable. Plus, the water primer in the 'Brew Science' forum basically breaks it all down so it's fairly straightforward to figure out.

Don't be put off by the complexity. Push through it, and you'll start making much, much better beer. The "Don't worry about water chemstry advice" is, IMHO, sorely misguided. I would have saved myself many, many hours of grief and many $$$ if I'd started immediately worrying about water chemistry when I moved from extract to all-grain.

I've learned that the three most important things about making homebrew are (a) water chemstry, (b) fermentation control, and (c) process repeatability -- in that order.

+1 to Bru'n water. It's really not that complicated if you take the time to read the instructions.

I'm a bit confused about the "why" on altering water chemistry... my water tastes pretty good after using a charcoal filter, and is of medium hardness. Why would I want to mess with it? To get closer to a certain style guideline or to make whatever I'm brewing taste better and how? I like the fact that my water is one of the things that makes my brewery unique and I try to brew beers that compliment it.

freshhoarse said:

I'm a bit confused about the "why" on altering water chemistry... my water tastes pretty good after using a charcoal filter, and is of medium hardness. Why would I want to mess with it? To get closer to a certain style guideline or to make whatever I'm brewing taste better and how? I like the fact that my water is one of the things that makes my brewery unique and I try to brew beers that compliment it.

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If your happy with your brews, continue what your doing. But you'll never find out if it could get better if you don't experiment. My 2 cents.

That's my point - how would they improve? When I said "why would I want to?" I was hoping for an answer. I have alot to learn, and as i delve deeper into brewing chemistry, I'm finding that some of the old axioms don't hold up. I don't want to be a good brewer, I want to be a great one and that means (for me) asking alot of questions, doing research, and generally keeping my mouth shut lol. I hope my post didn't come off as smart-assed...

freshhoarse said:

That's my point - how would they improve? When I said "why would I want to?" I was hoping for an answer. I have alot to learn, and as i delve deeper into brewing chemistry, I'm finding that some of the old axioms don't hold up. I don't want to be a good brewer, I want to be a great one and that means (for me) asking alot of questions, doing research, and generally keeping my mouth shut lol. I hope my post didn't come off as smart-assed...

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Some people have sensitive taste buds and can pull out off flavors. You would need someone like this to tell you to improve. Why not enter a competition and let the judges critique your beer? Also color is effected by the water chemistry I hear.

Oh so basically what I have read about so far... because I too want to become a great brewer comes from several books, How to Brew by palmer only gives a general discussion of what is happening but the "New Brewing Lager Beer" by Noonan dives into water chemistry. Essentially, the chemistry of the water will determine the ph of the mash and what happens in the mash as well as what enzymes do. Honestly it is really complicated and I will have to reread the book many times to get this. Basically, I think the deal with playing with water chemistry is to get an approximate water for the typical style to make a more authentic beer.

For instance, Hells Bock is made from fairly soft water and is a deep golden color but the traditional Bock is made from very hard water and was brewed with this in mind. A beer brewed with soft water that was designed for hard water doesn't taste as good as it should and will provide different properties to the beer itself. I think the next book I need to pick up is brewing chemistry and skip most of the orgo sections.

Frankly, the brew science forum here -- courtesy of several very patient folks who are willing to share their immense brewing knowledge -- is far better than most of the readily available brewing books -- including Palmer's book and Gordon Strong's new book.

It's a great question: "Why should I worry about water?"

And the answer is right here in the Brew Science forum. The quick read is the "Water primer" discussion, but if you want a more in depth discussion, read through AJ's posts. They're invaluable. Someone should really convince AJ to write a water chemistry book for homebrewers!

If you haven't already, make sure to download the Bru'n Water spreadsheet.
Even if you don't use it for water profiling, the Water Knowledge tab is packed full of so much information that helped me to understand why certain minerals are so important, and the appropriate ratios for various styles.

BTW -- once you start down the path of water adjustments, you'll invariably want a pH meter and will then begin obsessing about pH (the real key to successful batches, I've discovered).

I ran across this great PDF from Weyermann. Essentially, it's about the impact of acidulated malt on the mash, but it provides great background and context for all things pH (and, by extension, water) in the brewing process and provides several pH targets for different styles:

http://www.weyermann.de/downloads/pdf/Weyermann_TKW_Mash-pH_2010.pdf

(The link points to Weyermann's German site, but the PDF itself is in English)

Essential reading (along with Bru'n water's info tab as mentioned by Wolfman above.)

Thanks!

I get the importance of working with your water, but I sort of see it like a step in the process of becoming a better brewer. IMO, you start to worry about water after you have taken on most of the major issues like,... controlling your fermentation temp, hitting your mash temps consistently. All that takes you learning your equipment first.

There are places that have god awful water - so don't get me wrong. However, I wouldn't sweat water issues unless you are making crap beer and can't determine why. there is a reason the axiom, "if you have good tasting drinking water, it will make good beer" applies.

Work out your beginning processes, then dive into water (IMHO).

Great tasting water makes great tasting... WATER. If you're happy with your beer and don't need another thing to think about during brew day, forget about water.

CidahMastah said:

I get the importance of working with your water, but I sort of see it like a step in the process of becoming a better brewer. IMO, you start to worry about water after you have taken on most of the major issues like,... controlling your fermentation temp, hitting your mash temps consistently. All that takes you learning your equipment first.

There are places that have god awful water - so don't get me wrong. However, I wouldn't sweat water issues unless you are making crap beer and can't determine why. there is a reason the axiom, "if you have good tasting drinking water, it will make good beer" applies.

Work out your beginning processes, then dive into water (IMHO).

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Amen! If the water tastes good, there should be beer styles that can be made well with that water. You may not be able to brew all styles well, but through trial and error a brewer will find those styles. That is the genesis of the famous styles from places like Dublin, Burton, etc. Their water just happened to fit a particular beer style and they perfected it.

Understanding and treating brewing water is an important advanced topic. Conquering basic brewing issues like sanitation and temperature control are more important than water, unless the water sucks. Then you might have to deal with it a little earlier in your brewing progression.

I have been a brewer for more than 3 years and 2 of that is all grain. I have more than 35 batches of all grain under my belt, reliably hit 75% effency, mash and sparge temps, decoction methods, etc. and I have played around and managed to get above 90% efficiency in my last beer. I am at the point now of trying to get as high an efficiency as possible and getting as close to styles as possible to get ready to start entering competitions. Also I just want a damn accurate great style of beer when I make one.

In all of the advanced books I am reading it talks about water profiles and Noonan goes into why and the importances of getting water correct to style. You are correct in saying that the water I have will give me great beer, and it does. I want to see if that can be made better. Also I have a knack for chemistry and this seems like the next logical step.

I can't remember the poster, but the ones who say that getting mash ph correct will determine how great the beer is can not be more right. Ph determines almost all of the characteristics of the beer, and do think I don't have a ph meter yet. That will be fixed this weekend. The brun'n water is excellent and so is the brew chem pages. I will have to read through all of the stickies and only managed to get a bit into them.

I will say, that this is just proving how far down the rabbit hole I can go, and it seems to be a fairly endless rabbit hole. Also I am just a wee bit off and really do enjoy this. Also it seems that it can play a huge role and is definitely worth exploring.

Guys we are all saying the same thing.

I think we all agree working on water can help. But I defer to the below for the necessity of working on your water, with the caveat that you are making crap beer and you have ruled out bad process.

asterix404 said:

I also read from "Designing great beer" that only 1/10 people who get into the second round actually fiddle with their water.

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nuff' said.

Saying that messing with your water profile will make better brew just isn't true. Who knows, maybe your tap water will produce better beer without fiddling around with it. just being the devil's advocate here.

If you drink your water, and it tastes good, and you are happy with your beers......I wouldn't give it another thought. There are many other things to think about on brew day.

Bobby_M said:

Great tasting water makes great tasting... WATER. If you're happy with your beer and don't need another thing to think about during brew day, forget about water.

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Being a geeky person who misses his science days in high school and college, water chemistry in brewing has always intrigued me. I am a new brewer (5 batches, last 3 were all grain), so water chemistry was intimidating when I started. Three things changed my mind about trying water chemistry changes. The first was Bobby_M's videos on using EZ Water calculator:



Secondly and thirdly were the water chemistry podcasts from Basic Brewing with Kai Troester and Brew Strong with John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff:

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-17-11kaiph01.mp3
http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-24-11kaiph02.mp3

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong/search/water

Bobby's videos really made it look easy, and with these calculators it really is. Others have spoken as to why you should or shouldn't worry about water chemistry, but I would like to say that as a new brewer, it's not that hard to get into.

dantheman13 said:

Being a geeky person who misses his science days in high school and college, water chemistry in brewing has always intrigued me. I am a new brewer (5 batches, last 3 were all grain), so water chemistry was intimidating when I started. Three things changed my mind about trying water chemistry changes. The first was Bobby_M's videos on using EZ Water calculator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1n7-RjEJEM

Secondly and thirdly were the water chemistry podcasts from Basic Brewing with Kai Troester and Brew Strong with John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff:

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-17-11kaiph01.mp3
http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-24-11kaiph02.mp3

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong/search/water

Bobby's videos really made it look easy, and with these calculators it really is. Others have spoken as to why you should or shouldn't worry about water chemistry, but I would like to say that as a new brewer, it's not that hard to get into.

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good post! I am all for making it attainable

I've found brewing with my tap water produces a second rate brew. This largely stems from municipal additives (chloride, etc). I quit with the tap water altogether and movd to spring water from a well at our cabin or reverse osmosis (RO) water.

RO water is fine for a pilsner, but not an IPA. So I use salts to up the water profile for brews which are improved by higher mineral content. RO is easy because you know you are starting at zero for mineral content.


I don't know what the cabin spring water has in it, but I know it makes reliably good beer, so I don't worry about altering the profile on that water.

Does Natick use the same water supply as Boston? I absolutely love Boston water - for drinking and brewing - though I admittedly have a lot to learn about water chemistry.

"I also read from "Designing great beer" that only 1/10 people who get into the second round actually fiddle with their water. "

There is a big problem with that statement. It assumes that anyone's tap water will make an acceptable or good beer. Unfortunately there are a lot of water supplies that are not suited for making good beer or a particular style.

Those 9 in 10 people that didn't do anything to their water probably have water that suit that style and that 'first-round winning' demographic probably represents less than 1 percent of the total brewing population. The statement above is completely misleading and meaningless.

Most brewers will greatly benefit from understanding what their water is and what might be needed to amend it to brew other styles. Messing too much with brewing water (adding too many minerals) is often a bad thing, but understanding how to do it in an appropriate manner is a goal of Bru'n Water. Very few other water programs even provide good guidance on what water modifications are appropriate. Brewers end up screwing up their water without even knowing it.

I'm going to just pile on with what mabrungard has said here.

For those people saying 'great water makes great beer, don't worry about it'...well, there's a point that stops working. It didn't take too long to figure out that the great tasting water I have favored malty beers while dulling the bitterness/crispness of the hops. My imperial IPA had all the right flavors and aromas, but the mouthfeel was dull. After seeing this again and again I realized that the one thing left I hadn't tackled was water chemistry, and now that I use a spreadsheet (can't be any easier!) I'm getting the mouthfeel I want out of my beers.

I would add, for those who think this is just super taster junk, I sat in a meeting of the maltose falcons and we shared several beers that effectively had the same grain bill but had different water profiles. There was absolutely no question that the water had a huge impact on the way you perceive the beer.