Wait, what did I just brew? It was supposed to be a Hefeweizen.

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maztec

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I attempted to make a hefeweizen for my second beer. The recipe I used was from my local brew shop. At the time I thought it seemed a bit off, especially on the amount of hops used. I wanted to make a German Hefeweizen. However, I think this might be more like an American Hefeweizen? Except, I haven't spotted any recipes for an American Hefeweizen.

So, my opinion is this has far too much hops in it - and according to BeerTools calculations it is definitely too much tops. Plus, on tasting it is too much hops (it is still in the primary). However, the local shop insisted this was a German Hefeweisen. I am fairly certain that was incorrect. So, what did I make?

Recipe below --

5 gallons -

Steep:
12oz Malted Wheat
8oz Aromatic Malt
6oz Cara-Pils Malt

Boil:
Results from steeping plus
6.6lbs Bavarian Wheat LME
1.75oz Northern Brewer (pellets) @ 60 min
0.5oz Hallertau (pellets) @ 30 min
0.5oz Hallertau (pellets) @ 15 min

Yeast:
WYeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen

My OG: 1.049

----

So, my belief is that the 1.75oz Northern Brewer hops was far too much. The local homebrew shop insisted that it was necessary to make a true Hefeweizen ... but, the few recipes I have found all use significantly less hops.

Oh, and, anything I can do at this point to make this one better? Or should be patient and see what the results are once bottled? I am sure my friends who are hop fanatics will love it ...

Thanks for the help!

Now, to find a good Hefeweizen recipe or summer wit or something ...


:drunk:
 
I'm still new to all this (been brewing for a few months only)...

but I plugged your numbers into Beer Tools. It looks to be pretty close to a Weissbier. OG I get recommended between 1.044-1.052 as a guideline...the expected with your recipe is on the high side at about 1.053.
Final gravity expected hits it's mark at around 1.013.

Color is on the high side at 7.95* SRM...but still a wheat.
ABV as expected.

Like you guessed, the bitterness is off the charts. I'm not sure exactly what AA yours were at since you didn't say, but Beer Tools guesstimated a 65.9....when the recommended max was 15.0
The Northern Brewer hops seemed to do you in.


I'd just say wait and find out what it tastes like, though. No point in worrying about it now. Just wait until it's bottled and see what it tastes like.


From a newbie to another one...here's what my first Bavarian Wheat had in it (I called it Sunnydock, btw):

Cara-Pils .5lb steeped for 30 min.
Wheat LME 6lb boiled for 60 min.
Hallertau 4.1% 1oz for 60 min.
Hallertau 4.0% 1oz for 2 min.
Corriander seeds 1oz for 2 min.
Danstar Munich Dry Yeast


I liked it. The GF didn't as much because she's more partial to American Wheats...I had to fight her not to put a lemon in it (German wheat's aren't supposed to). Not the best Bavarian Hefe I've had, but not bad for my first try.
 
Hefes will generally have one hop addition at the beginning of the boil and that's it. The hops should be of the German noble varieies, and are really only there to provide a little balance for the malt. Typically these varieties don't add much in the way of bitterness due to their low AA%. You should not expect to have any hop character in a Hefe, as most of the character is yeast derived, so a good hefewiesen yeast should be used.

So to answer your question, you made a beer.
 
@Cheeto: Woo! Wheat IPA, that made me laugh. I think I am going to go with Hopfenweizen.

@BarleyWater: True true... Beer it is. I was in Munich for a few months last year and spent a lot of time drinking by the liter. When I saw the call for Northern Brewer I cringed, but figured what the heck. I guess I should have gone with my gut on that.

So, it doesn't even qualify as an AmeriWeizen. Oh well.

@Benny: I really don't understand putting lemon in a weizen, American or not. What still blows my mind is when a local pub gets Hacker-Pschorr and sticks an orange slice in it. I have given up explaining not to put it in and drink it anyway, but it always boggles me.

My only problem is I'm not a huge fan of hoppy beers, so this one might just end up being consumed by friends more than myself.

Thanks for the laughs and tips chaps.
 
In Germany they tend to put a slice of lemon and a sprinkle of dried rice into a Krystal weizen, but not into a normal Hefe.
This is up North by the way, so the Bavarians may not appreciate how we treated/mistreated their beers.
 
You are right.. that is a ton of hops.

Heres a partial mash recipe that tastes exactly like Hacker Pschorr. It has 0.75oz Hallertaur and thats it. Your recipe is about 2oz too much.

3.00 lb Wheat Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 42.86 %
2.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 28.57 %
1.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 14.29 %
0.75 lb Wheat, Torrified (1.7 SRM) Grain 10.71 %
0.25 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 3.57 %
0.75 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 13.2 IBU
1 Pkgs Hefeweizen Ale (White Labs #WLP300) Yeast-Wheat
 
EoinMag said:
In Germany they tend to put a slice of lemon and a sprinkle of dried rice into a Krystal weizen, but not into a normal Hefe.
This is up North by the way, so the Bavarians may not appreciate how we treated/mistreated their beers.
Click to expand...



In Austria and Bavaria Weisses are huge.. but they definitely do not put any fruit in it.. at all.
 
I don't know, the 7 years I spent in Bavaria I did see some Hefe's served with a lemon slices, maybe it is a brewery specific thing. However, typically only Kristalls have it. Then again I have seen Hefe's served mixed with bannana juice, or coke, like mixed into the beer, horrid looking stuff. Pilsners are also commonly served with sprite or 7-up as a Radler (i.e. shandy).

On a side note, unless the hops included in that kit were oddly low AA%, that is way too high IBU's.
 
@syd138: You rock my friend. I will be trying that recipe next time.
@Whiskey: Nope, not way too low AA%. I have learned to go with my gut. That, and cross-check with things like BeerTools [I actually got it after prepping this recipe...]

As for fruit .. Yah, I did see them once in a while, but usually it was Americans that had the fruit added, not the Bavarians. And the Bavarians I hung out with usually pointed and laughed at them, but that could be just them.

On the other hand, Radler was interesting. Traditionally it was mixed with lemonade. These days they mix it with way too sweet lemonade. From my understanding, it used to be mixed with a nice tart, sour lemonade - and I managed to get that in one place and it was good - I like tart - but not something I am going to go out of my way to get. On the other hand, I went to another place and they were mixing it with sour grapefruit juice - that was awesome! And I wish I could get the grapefruit version more often.
 
That does seem a bit high for a German Hefe. I just got done brewing mine and its recipe was as follows for 5 gallons:

6 lbs. Bavarian wheat
.5 oz. Northern Brewer Hops
Whirfloc Tablet

Recipe was from Morebeer and contained no grain at all.
 
I spent a week in Bavaria with my wife and some of her family, and we commonly saw weiss mixed with Lemonade, but I saw no fruit served in the beers. I will say, however, that the beer I drank in Germany was by far some of the best beer I have ever drank. It is actually what got me interestred in homebrewing.
 
Radler is often served just with mineral water, so just soda water effectively. Story goes that there was a bicycle club out on a day trip and they all arrived at a pub where the dude was low on beer so to get everyone served he half and halfed with mineral water to stretch it out. Bicycles=Raeder hence radler.
In the North it's called an "Alster"wasser, the Alster being a river.

I was a barman/waiter for about 8 years in Germany.
 
EoinMag: Cool history! I had not realized it was also served with mineral water. In fact, never encountered that while in Munich. Funny. What part of Germany were you serving in?
 
I was up North on the OstFriesian Islands, Langeoog, Norderney doing summer season cafe work and where I first worked under a masterchef, then I also worked in Nienburg which is close to Hannover and also in Hannover itself.
 
Never made it to the OstFriesian Islands, aren't they mostly sand? Sounds interesting. So, you're a chef now? Sorry, being nosy, just curious. That, and wondering what a home brewer in Ireland brews.

Speaking of such things. So, let's assume I rack this hopafeizen this weekend. Any suggestions on anything I might want to ad during the secondary fermentation to make it interesting? I am tempted to add some fruit, but not sure. Thoughts?
 
If a beer requires fruit, then the beer must suck. Fruit does not belong in beer.

Infused fruit flavors are an entirely different thing.
 
SmugMug: You sure you chose the correct nickname?

Fruit has its place. It may not be for you. Then again, not everyone likes brutally bitter, high malt beers either. Part of the fun in brewing your own is experimenting and doing things that other people do not necessarily like.

The beer does not require fruit, but it could make it interesting. And what do you mean by "infused fruit flavors". What I was writing about was adding it in, so the flavors would infuse, then when bottling remove it. However, what you are saying seems to suggest something different - do you mean to imply the flavors from the wort, yeast, and hops?

As for this beer, so far it tastes fine, but it is far too bitter for the style I was heading toward. Thus, the hop flavor dominates everything and the malt ends up being too light. I would like to do something to offset the hop flavor a bit so that my wife would be willing to drink it. Not that drinking it with my friends isn't that bad of a thing, but I like to share with my wife.
 
maztec said:
SmugMug: You sure you chose the correct nickname?

Fruit has its place. It may not be for you. Then again, not everyone likes brutally bitter, high malt beers either. Part of the fun in brewing your own is experimenting and doing things that other people do not necessarily like.

The beer does not require fruit, but it could make it interesting. And what do you mean by "infused fruit flavors". What I was writing about was adding it in, so the flavors would infuse, then when bottling remove it. However, what you are saying seems to suggest something different - do you mean to imply the flavors from the wort, yeast, and hops?

As for this beer, so far it tastes fine, but it is far too bitter for the style I was heading toward. Thus, the hop flavor dominates everything and the malt ends up being too light. I would like to do something to offset the hop flavor a bit so that my wife would be willing to drink it. Not that drinking it with my friends isn't that bad of a thing, but I like to share with my wife.
Click to expand...

Don't get your panties in a bind. I just have a strong opinion on fruit being in my beer. I'm the kind of guy who can't find lambics palatable (but I keep trying). Didn't mean to offend.
 
Not particularly offended, just wasn't sure what you added to the conversation other than "don't do it." I am open to a reason, beyond you don't like the taste ...

What I want to know is are you not liking the fruit in the beer or the ungodly sweetness of many of the fruit lambics out there? And, have you tried a straight, non-fruit lambic?

Then again, I'm the guy who served peche lambic instead of champagne at my wedding. Didn't tell anyone it was beer, they loved it. On the other hand, when I tell people it is beer and they drink it, they don't like it. A lot of things come down to our expectation of flavor before consumption.
 
maztec said:
Not particularly offended, just wasn't sure what you added to the conversation other than "don't do it." I am open to a reason, beyond you don't like the taste ...

What I want to know is are you not liking the fruit in the beer or the ungodly sweetness of many of the fruit lambics out there? And, have you tried a straight, non-fruit lambic?

Then again, I'm the guy who served peche lambic instead of champagne at my wedding. Didn't tell anyone it was beer, they loved it. On the other hand, when I tell people it is beer and they drink it, they don't like it. A lot of things come down to our expectation of flavor before consumption.
Click to expand...

My opinion is that when fruit is added to beers, it takes away from the native flavors of the grains/malts/yeasts. Sometimes, it tastes like the fruit is added to intentionally cover flaws (to me).

I have not had a non-fruit lambic. Wasn't aware they existed.
 
i'm new to this whole game, but I agree with Smugmug fruit in beer IMO makes it something else, a beerlike fruit beverage.

I used an extract kit from moorebeer, i used i should say my friend used

German Hefeweizen- Extract | MoreBeer

we started brewing at the same time. When they say the beer has clove and banana overtones that an understatement. And as far as a hop flavor i would say almost zero.

When we first pulled a mug off the keg both scratched our heads like two idiots wondering where the banana flavor came from, then we researched what he had done.

Reinheitsgebot from what we read seemed to have feudalistic overtones.

this has turned into one of my fav beers. Going to try a belgian wit in a few weeks.

done rambling...
 
Firstnten: The recipe I used was far too bitter, as I had suspected, but I went with it. There is a reason I am now calling it a Hopafeweizen. The estimated IBU is 61.9! When it should be between 8 and 15. The recipe you linked is 14-16.

The banana and cloves in a traditional Hefeweizen come from the yeast. It's awesome, one of the reasons I love Hefeweizen. There are a few other flavors you can get from the yeast also.

Nevertheless, the brew I made at this point is 61.9 IBU and that is not going to decrease. Honestly, I have to be in the right mood for a beer over 20IBU. At that point, for me, it is more bitter than beer - perhaps bitteer. That is why I am thinking of adding something. It doesn't have to be fruit, it was just one thought - especially since there are some good fruit Hefeweizen's out there. Usually they are done with oranges. There are also some good fruit ales. It is often just a hint of fruit, not an all-out assault of sweetness. I am just looking for something to offset what I have here.

By the way, Belgian wit's rock, I love my first one, just didn't get enough carbonation in it :\. Same problem, followed the LBHS's recipe, I will not be doing that again - at least not for wheat beers.

So, you both agree, not-fruit, but do you have any other recommendations? I am tempted to flavor it with something, doesn't mean that is what I am going to ultimately do, but I think it is worth exploring. Heck, I might just rack it off into 5 1-gallon jugs and add something different to each one. Then again, not sure if that would work.
 
maztec said:
Firstnten: The recipe I used was far too bitter, as I had suspected, but I went with it. There is a reason I am now calling it a Hopafeweizen. The estimated IBU is 61.9! When it should be between 8 and 15. The recipe you linked is 14-16.

The banana and cloves in a traditional Hefeweizen come from the yeast. It's awesome, one of the reasons I love Hefeweizen. There are a few other flavors you can get from the yeast also.

Nevertheless, the brew I made at this point is 61.9 IBU and that is not going to decrease. Honestly, I have to be in the right mood for a beer over 20IBU. At that point, for me, it is more bitter than beer - perhaps bitteer. That is why I am thinking of adding something. It doesn't have to be fruit, it was just one thought - especially since there are some good fruit Hefeweizen's out there. Usually they are done with oranges. There are also some good fruit ales. It is often just a hint of fruit, not an all-out assault of sweetness. I am just looking for something to offset what I have here.

By the way, Belgian wit's rock, I love my first one, just didn't get enough carbonation in it :\. Same problem, followed the LBHS's recipe, I will not be doing that again - at least not for wheat beers.

So, you both agree, not-fruit, but do you have any other recommendations? I am tempted to flavor it with something, doesn't mean that is what I am going to ultimately do, but I think it is worth exploring. Heck, I might just rack it off into 5 1-gallon jugs and add something different to each one. Then again, not sure if that would work.
Click to expand...

Have you thought of possibly adding honey and/or some spices? All spice/anise/clove....all possibilities?
 
SmugMug: Hmm, that could be good.

I started going through the calculator on this recipe. Closest thing to it is an IPA, but that really isn't a close fit and the flavors are going to be off for that. I really wish I had gone with my gut on this one.

Fruit isn't always added to cover flaws, sometimes it is a feature in itself. It is the excess sugar that seems to be added to cover a flaw, which is too bad. In Lambics it is usually added to compensate for how sour they are. Be sure to try one out sometime, straight Lambics can be pretty good.

Honey could be an interesting addition. Spices too. Just wondering what would be best in this. I think I need to look at flavored IPA recipes and see what they do. That might give me a good idea!
 
Good advice trefoyl.

Hmm, I came across other threads and recipes for adding Basil, Apricots, Mango, or Jalapeño to IPAs. I bet green mango would be good, not sweet, add a nice sour tartness, which should compliment the bitterness quite well. Thoughts...?
 
Dude, you're the next Sam Calagione, but you won't be making 120 minute IPA I guess. Does your local library have his book "Extreme Brewing"? In it he describes different beer additives and gives advice according to his experience. His guidelines seem to show that fruit should be added at the end of the boil to sterilize but preserve flavor. If added later I think a steep and cooling would be in order. Strain solids before transferring wort, or to the beer. He doesn't mention green mango but maybe that flavor would be sort of a mix of apricot and sour cherries? In the case of apricots he recommends 4 lbs per 5 gal. and cherries 10 lbs.
When he adds spices they are usually boiled for 50 minutes, in other words: add after the first 10 minutes of a 60 minute boil.

Let us know what happens -- I'll be watching this space!
An interesting article I just found descibes Sam's experimentation with garam masala:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/11/24/081124fa_fact_bilger?currentPage=all
 
Cool, thanks! Not sure if I quite qualify as a Sam, but I am having fun.

Now, Gildog - he might qualify as Sam Calagione, that guy is crazy.

Good looking article, will have to finish reading it (started, but ran out of time immediately).

It makes sense to boil fruit and spices to sterilize, but that would impart a bit of change in flavor -- and you lose the fruit sugars to the yeast. However, I bet it also draws some of the flavors out. It would be interesting to test the actual taste differences that result from different points of adding the fruit. It is possible to sterilize fruit (blanch or puree and cook or microwave) for the secondary, but putting it in the boil would be easier.

Green Mango is a south Asian ingredient. I actually put it powdered in my pasta and pizza sauces. As a powder, I find it good to blend flavors together. However, traditionally it is used to make things taste sour and to blend out hot spices in the flavor. Flavor-wise, if you can find a place that sells a green mango (unripened), they are sour, with a faint hint of mango. And, green mango is often used in teas as a flavoring. It can also be consumed straight with a little salt (yum!). I find it delicious, but it might be an acquired taste. I'm not really sure what the closest flavor would be, probably sour cherries in terms of tartness, but mango for flavor.

I think I am going to go shopping and see what seems good to throw in!
 
I did a test run of blended green mango and a cup of the brew. Result? Tasted pretty good! So, I cut up the rest of the mangos (six large green mangoes), and threw them in as I racked it to the secondary. I froze and blanched them to sterilize.
 
trefoyl said:
Remember that honey in beer ferments all the way out leaving little / no flavor. Also it may contain wild yeasts if not killed by heating.
Click to expand...

I added in 2lbs of clover honey 30min into the boil and 8 days later you can definitely still taste a distinct honey flavor and sweetness. It's much more mellow but it's still there.
 
Arkador: Yah, thatis what I have gathered by looking around since brewing that. I really did know better, I was an idiot to follow the recipe. I should have left the Northern Brewer at the shop.
 
maztec said:
Never made it to the OstFriesian Islands, aren't they mostly sand? Sounds interesting. So, you're a chef now? Sorry, being nosy, just curious. That, and wondering what a home brewer in Ireland brews.

Speaking of such things. So, let's assume I rack this hopafeizen this weekend. Any suggestions on anything I might want to ad during the secondary fermentation to make it interesting? I am tempted to add some fruit, but not sure. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Sorry dude I missed this one. The Ostfriesian Islands are not heavily populated, one of them was 80% bird sanctuary and the rest tourism and had no cars on it. The other was similar without the bird sanctuary. Norderney has up to 50.000 visitors daily in the summmer, but only 10.000 permanent population. I worked for a long time in gastronomy, I was headwaiter for that masterchef dude. I have worked as a chef without any formal training, so I'm loathe to call it chef, but not under him. They say a good waiter can make a bad chef, and any chef can make a waiter when needs must.
Now I work in computer security, in the German and French markets mostly.

So far, I've brewed a few wines, just sampled my own concoction plum wine this evening and it's fantastic after about ten weeks, looking forward to that one in a year.
I presently am on kit beer brewing as a relative noob, I started in November, but have about 50-60 gallons under my belt since then, some better than others.
I buy Woodfordes kits now as I have realised that all malt is definitely the way to go, my next step is to go extract and then hopefully all grain.
 
No problem EoinMag. Sounds like a good time up there. Hmm, plum wine, sounds interesting. I was actually thinking of making some turnip wine this fall, but have never even tried it - just seen old recipes for it.
 
I added the green mango. It has been in the secondary with it for a week. It tastes pretty good. Just a mild hint of tart mangoness and the bitter has been sucked out a touch, really nice! In fact, tasting the mango chunks themselves they are super-bitter now.

One question. Because my mango chunks keep floating (yeast attachs to their sugars, make gas, they go up), any recommendations on how to make them sink a bit so that they get more into flavoring the brew up? I want a touch more mango tartness to it, but it has a good start so far.

Thanks!
 
Just a question about Hefe beers. If I'm looking to make a Hefe more like a Pyramid Hefe or Widmer Hefe, what yeast would you recommend? I like these beers more than the fruity Bavarian styles I've tasted.
 
Gderem said:
Just a question about Hefe beers. If I'm looking to make a Hefe more like a Pyramid Hefe or Widmer Hefe, what yeast would you recommend? I like these beers more than the fruity Bavarian styles I've tasted.
Click to expand...

The Bavarian beers are fruity because of the yeast (which I think you have gathered). However, different Bavarian-style beers have different fruit characters. The only real way to figure them all out is to make a trip to Bavaria and try the thirteen main brands! It takes about two days at each, because they have a lot of beer. :tank:

However, if you want an American Hefeweizen style - for example Pyramid or Widmer, there are a lot of clone recipes out there. For yeast, I have seen three different types being used. One was a lager, I don't understand how that was still a Hefeweizen, so leave you to use Google to search for that one on your own (Wyeast 2035 American Lager). The other was using a fairly neutral yeast. Finally, the closest I have seen used White Labs WLP320 American Hefeweizen Ale, which seems to be named appropriately.

To me, the biggest difference between an American Hefeweizen and a Bavarian Hefeweizen is both the amount of hops and the yeast.

Widmer actually gives a ton of details on their Hefeweizen on their website:
http://www.widmer.com/beer_hefeweizen.aspx
You will notice that they hit 30 IBU (compared to around 14 IBU, versus my 61.9 IBU here - I'm even outrageously high for an American Hefeweizen). The OG is 1.047 (11.75*Plato). They are using Pale, Munich, Wheat, and Caramel 40L. Plus, Alchemy hops for bittering, and Willamette and Cascade for aroma. You should be able to reasonably well engineer their recipe from that. Others have done the work for you if you do a quick search on Google.

Hope that helps and good luck! :mug:
 
Earlier I had mentioned that the green mango had sucked out the bitterness. GLW agrees with me 100%, the beer tastes awesome now! It is bottled and we are waiting to see what happens once it is fully carbed. I did go a bit overboard on the sugar for carbing, in that I put in enough for a traditional Hefe, we will see if that works.

A funny side story. GLW decided that she wanted to eat the mangos in the carboy. So she grabbed one, popped it in her mouth, and "Hmm, not much fla.... OH MY GOD!" and spat it out. It was super-bitter. So, quite literally, the green mango and sucked up the bitterness.

Now, the funny thing is, all it was was bitter. It doesn't seem to have sucked up the hop flavor, just the hop bitter. That may mean, with a bit of experimentation, some really interesting results might be achievable. Time and experimentation will tell!
 
Try that same recipe with 1 oz of Hallertau Hersbrucker at the beginning of the boil and nothing else (except for maybe Irish Moss or a Whirlfloc tab @ 15 mins). That ought to bring it closer to the style!
 

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