Riesling Wheat

So, this thread here got the old wheels in my head thinking. Some of you may know I work for a wine producer where 90% of the profile is Riesling. These folks love my brews and always kid about starting a brewery. That was until I presented them with this. Now, there very interested and offered to supply some juice next harvest.

Before that happens I want to do some test runs with some Riesling concentrate. Here's what I have so far:

Amount Item Type % or IBU
1.00 lb Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 9.09 %
5.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 45.45 %
4.50 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 40.91 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
0.50 oz Hallertau (Mad Scientist) [3.50 %] (60 min) Hops 6.0 IBU
0.50 oz Sorachi Ace (Mad Scientist) [14.00 %] (30 min) Hops 16.7 IBU
0.25 oz Sorachi Ace (Mad Scientist) [14.00 %] (5 min) Hops 2.2 IBU
10.00 oz Riesling Concentrate (Boil 15.0 min) Misc ??????
1 Pkgs American Hefeweizen Ale (White Labs #WLP320) Yeast-Wheat

Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.056 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.36 %
Bitterness: 24.9 IBU
Calories: 251 cal/pint
Est Color: 3.9 SRM


I'm not totally sure on the concentrate and how much to use or how to enter it in to Beer Smith. It's going to have natural sugars in it and most concentrates state they are at 68 brix (SG 1.336). Do I enter it as a grain in Beer Smith? I need to make sure I use enough to get flavor out of it, so do I reduce the grains to make up for the gravity points I'll gain by using the concentrate? Thoughts in general on using concentrate in a brew????

Your thoughts in general on the recipe? Going out a little using the Sorachi, but also going off what I have in stock as well...

Discuss....

No thoughts? At all? Not even that I'm an idiot? fool? why bother?

I can't help you Brian. I like the idea, and maybe I'll be fortunate enough to try one.

Thanks Jess. There will probably be many many versions of this over the next few months and I'll need to recruit some tasters. Your on the list!

Really interesting idea.

If you think about the concentrate just like any other fruit addition maybe that would help? If I were going to make a Grape Wheat beer I think I would add the concentrate to secondary like you would with fruit additions.

Maybe boil a small amount of concentrate and take a taste and see how strong it is. Then cool it and pitch into secondary?

Well I'm very interested in this! I wonder if I could get my hands on some Catawba concentrate? I've already tried adding wine and Jagermeister to some brews at bottling time and those results were promising. Hmmm...

I was wondering myself about adding it to secondary. Maybe for experiment v1.0 I split the runnings into two small batches. One will boil concentrate for 15mins, the other I'll put the concentrate into the secondary/bottling bucket/keg, whatever....

I tend to agree with the idea of treating it like a normal fruit addition. I'd put it in the secondary.

I would also vote for secondary. I would be afraid of a pectin haze setting in due to the grape concetrate. I would also recomend filtering it to show off the beauty of your "Krystal-Reisling-Wiezen".

Oh, and you can add me to your list of official taste-testers....

-Todd

If putting into secondary, would I not boil the concentrate any, still possibly resulting in pectin haze?

My experience with fruits is usually that its the boil that produces the pectin haze. I haven't seen any issues with concentrate in the secondary (like Oregan Fruit Concentrates). Not sure on grape juice though. As you stated, some experimentation may be necessary.

-Todd

So you're saying just put the concentrate in there. No need to boil it prior to putting in secondary...OK.

Man, concentrate is expensive. Basically doubled my cost. 46oz for $18. Any thoughts on amounts to use?

Kilted Brewer said:

So you're saying just put the concentrate in there. No need to boil it prior to putting in secondary...OK.

Man, concentrate is expensive. Basically doubled my cost. 46oz for $18. Any thoughts on amounts to use?

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I would experiment a bit. I would honestly start with about 16~20oz and work your way up slowly. ALso depends on how much you want the Reisling to come through.

-Todd

I wouldn't boil it, but you can pasteurize it instead. There are also tablets that can get rid of pectin haze.

Transfered the beer on to about 16oz of the concentrate last night. It didn't mix very well and just stayed on the bottom of the carboy. I plugged the top of the carboy and gently tilted it over to try and mix and it just fell right back to the bottom. It's like oil and water.

I think I'll leave that sit for another 7 - 10 days then keg.

WOW...so this was a case when "Secondary fermentation" really mean secondary fermentation. Got home last night and went down to the basement to check on something else and there was krausen leaking down the side of the carboy. I thought the added sugars would renew the yeast, but I wasn't expecting that.

I think this could turn out to be a fantastic brew and I'm pretty curious about it, please don't neglect to post some tasting notes after it's done!

It's got me thinking about adding some kind of red wine concentrate to a barleywine, maybe a cabernet or some such.

Took a sample out today. Krausen is still pretty thick from adding the grape concentrate. It's at 1.014 right now. Not sure if the yeast are going to be able to get it any dryer, but that should be the goal I think.

Sample tasted great. It's an American Wheat so not getting any heavy banana or clove and it's nice and light. I think I'm getting the grape flavor coming through, but not knocking me out. It's a tad sweet, that's what I'm calling the grape flavor. A little drier and maybe a little more concentrate on the next test batch. Over all, I'm liking what I have. I'll take another reading on Monday and probably keg at that time if nothing has changed.


PS: Anyone know how to calculate the residual sugar? My boss, and the winemaker has been asking me about the residual sugar levels in my beers, but I just give him the FG reading and he does some math in is head but never shares.

Kilted Brewer said:

PS: Anyone know how to calculate the residual sugar? My boss, and the winemaker has been asking me about the residual sugar levels in my beers, but I just give him the FG reading and he does some math in is head but never shares.

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I think it's just the FG adjusted to reflect the alcohol content (since alcohol is less dense than water, high abv liquids will have a lower gravity), but I'm not really sure. I think ProMash might show you this value.

Waited till today to take a new reading as I was waiting for my new finishing hydrometer to arrive, and it did. Today's reading was right at 1.010. So, either I was way off on Saturday, or this one is still chugging away. Taste is still a tad sweet. Like to make it drier still. Also, I think some nice banana notes would be nice on this. May have to ditch the American Wheat and go for a true German Wheat. Makes sense...German grapes, German beer....

Sorry, I didn't see this thread before. Count me in as a critic! Sounds like it's coming along nicely. It's normal for dense liquids to go straight to the bottom. When I started my last mead, I used 7 lbs of honey, then two weeks later added 12 more lbs and it all went to a solid mass at the bottom. Personally, I think it's better for the yeast that way, since the thick goo isn't causing osmotic shock to the yeasties and it lets them work slowly at the mass o sugar.

According to http://www.grapevinecottage.com/Pages/AR_Germans.html

Residual Sugar Statement
Trocken = dry, or less than 0.9% RS
Halbtrocken = half-dry, or less than 1.8% RS

That's for the Trocken/Halbtrocken info Evil. I was more looking for how to calculate the RS number though. I'm sure it's simple enough, I just never calculated that number before.
You've been added to the list of tasters!

Please put me on the sampling list for this beer.

Alrighty folks...put this sucker in the keg on Saturday and will be bottling in the next day or two. If you're still interested in being a taster shoot me your address in a PM. I'm thinking maybe 4 - 5 total. I've got 4 folks in the office that I need to bring some too, then a bigger test at a party on Saturday. And probably just a bottle each.

Thanks.

Brian,

Wanted to give you some feedback on this beer. Should have taken more thorough notes but here is what I have from memory.

Aroma: Dominated by floral hoppiness.
Taste: Nice malty, american hefeweizen flavor with some hop presence. The grape was there, but barely. Slight banana/clove tasted, perfect level for me. I enjoyed every bit of it. I am a big American Hefe fan, so this beer made me tingle in special places. For the next batch, I would like to see more grape concentrate, but understand how expensive it is. I think this would dry out the profile a bit, and hopefully make the grape more noticeable. I wouldn't mind seeing you double the grape juice and then working back from there.

All and all a great beer, I would definately enjoy trying version 2.0.

KB - Any other feedback? I am brewing this one as is anyway, but would love to hear what the peeps at work are saying.

Sorry, I've been meaning to post my feedback as well and for some reason forgot!

I, too, liked the beer, but had a hard time detecting the riesling character. I shared a few sips with someone who predominately drinks white wines, and she had a hard time finding it as well.

That said, I enjoyed drinking it. It was extremely refreshing and had a good crispness to it that I attributed to acidity, but could be something else.

I think increasing the amount of concentrate might be a good idea, but if you increase it too far the beer might end up lacking in body (which, I suppose, might also not be a bad thing in this beer). It might also be worthwhile to try and help the riesling notes out with something else - I'm not a big white wine drinker, but I believe rieslings are supposed to have a light citrus character, no? Maybe a little lime/orange zest in the secondary, just to highlight those flavor elements? Not enough to actually flavor the beer, but a helping hand?

Thanks guys. Your comments are right in line with what folks here at work are saying. Needs some more riesling. Wine maker here actually was thinking some Muscat would be nice as well. But the over all flavor and profile was just right. We actually sat down and had a discussion for about 30 minutes about it. They are very interested in taking this beer to the next step!

I think for v2.0 and v2.5 I'm going to do one batch with about 24oz concentrate and maybe bump another up to around 30 - 32oz. Man, I can't wait till harvest though when I can get some fresh high quality juice.

Thanks again to McKbrew and The Blow...

Lab...
I almost forgot, I put in the recipe that I boiled the concentrate...I did not. I think I note it somewhere in here, but I put it in to the secondary and racked on top of that. Be ready for a new explosion...this thing took off for another week!

I read an article recently about the riesling beer produced at the brewery near me. In the article they say they use 10% riesling.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080708/LIVING/807080305/1032

Kilted Brewer said:

Thanks again to McKbrew and The Blow...

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Hey, I was just psyched to get to try it.

When I went to try it, somebody had moved the bottle on me and I almost had a heart attack thinking someone had drank it without knowing what it was... that would have been a disaster after all the trouble you went through!

All thanks go to you, man.

nyer said:

I read an article recently about the riesling beer produced at the brewery near me. In the article they say they use 10% riesling.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080708/LIVING/807080305/1032

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Another nearby Rochesterian?

I'm over by Geneva.

After reading the article (that was the initial inspiration for the beer. Check out my first post.) I'm thinking I may also try a batch that has the wort racked onto the juice right from the kettle. Thoughts on that?

Kilted Brewer said:

After reading the article (that was the initial inspiration for the beer. Check out my first post.) I'm thinking I may also try a batch that has the wort racked onto the juice right from the kettle. Thoughts on that?

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Very big blow off tube or large fermenter required. :cross: Thanks again for letting me try it.

Edit: It would be cool to get a bottle of the commercial stuff for a comparison.

Yeah, may need one of Forrest's 8.5 gal carboys. I'm interested in the NY version as well. Doesn't sound like they really bottle it though.

I'm wondering how much more I should really be talking to you guys about this. The folks at work were first wanting to get something released this year!

Kilted Brewer said:

Yeah, may need one of Forrest's 8.5 gal carboys. I'm interested in the NY version as well. Doesn't sound like they really bottle it though.

I'm wondering how much more I should really be talking to you guys about this. The folks at work were first wanting to get something released this year!

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I've had the NY version several times and I have never been able to taste the riesling. It tastes like a light wheat beer to me. You aren't missing much. They do seem to sell alot of growlers though. It seems to me that the less serious beer drinkers like it and buy it. I have a friend who buys 2 growlers a week and he thinks it's the greatest beer on earth. Prior to that he loved yuengling though. They are really starting to market this one here and they claim it is the first and only riesling beer in the country. They are supposed to bottle in the future. It is a great gimmic for a winery, especially since this area is known for riesling wines.

Sorry just saw this thread.
I brewed a beer I called Grape Braggot using a can of Alexanders Chenin Blanc and 5# of honey.
I my case I added the honey and grape concentrate to the wort after it had cooled before pitching the yeast. The "beer" ended up with a FG of 1.013 and and ABV of 10.5%. The wine character was more noticeable than the mead but all 3 flavors (wine, mead, beer) come through. This did require alot more aging than my usual beers. It was 2 months in the secondary just to clear.

In beersmith I entered the concentrate as an extract with the appropriate gravity.

Good luck. It does look interesting and I think it will be even better with fresh grapes though the process will be somewhat complicated.

Craig

CBBaron said:

Good luck. It does look interesting and I think it will be even better with fresh grapes though the process will be somewhat complicated.

Craig

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Getting juice will be no problem. I work for a winery that is 95% Riesling and have already been promised juice from this years harvest.

Folks, quick question...if you were to enter this in a competition, would you enter it as a fruit beer or an American Wheat?