Wine Barrel Lambic Project

Ryan_PA said:

Anyone want to brew a coffee stout for brewday?

I have a pickup for the add'l drums. Can we pick them up on Friday?

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I happen to have a keg of brekfast stout! we can make sure its available

jezter6 said:

I can just see the guy falling asleep during the boil and waking up to an epic boilover.

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Fixed that for you

claphamsa said:

I happen to have a keg of brekfast stout! we can make sure its available

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Most excellent!!!!

That and some mead and I'll be the guy sleeping during the boilover.

Ok, just doing some quick calcs...1.25 quarts of strike water per pound of grain is ....34 gallons of strike water.

Which means we're gonna be sparging with close to 120+ gallons.

Obviously we'll have to split that up into 2 or even 3 batch sparges...Anyone have a fly sparging rig we can use? I'd hate to have this be our first ever attempt at fly sparging, but I have some concerns about how this is all going to work out...

Come on, has there ever been a single issue with one of our brew days?

I can ask around for a fly sparge arm, or we can just make one with a temporary rig job. Some soft copper and a drill and we are golden, but you have to keep in mind this is not a traditional mash/sparge. We have to do a funky schedule, similar to pulling many decoctions to convert the wheat.

Ryan_PA said:

Come on, has there ever been a single issue with one of our brew days?

I can ask around for a fly sparge arm, or we can just make one with a temporary rig job. Some soft copper and a drill and we are golden, but you have to keep in mind this is not a traditional mash/sparge. We have to do a funky schedule, similar to pulling many decoctions to convert the wheat.

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One of the commercial stands that recirculates just has a piece of silicone tubing sitting on top of the mash. I just use a piece of tubing pouring onto a piece of foil. As long as you keep 1-2" of water on top of the mash I don't see what benefits there are for a sparge arm (other than the liquor cooling as it goes through the air)

So for my 5G batch, I stole the mash sched from Mike (Oldsock) blog - Link.

Here is the schedule:

5.25 Gallon Batch Size Mash Schedule
Step 1 - 5 Gallons of water heated to 144*
Step 2 - 2.5 Quarts of heated water mixed with grist - grain should rest at 113*
Step 3 - Boil remaining water
Step 4 - Rest mash 20 minutes
Step 5 - 4 Quarts added of boiling water - rest at 136*
Step 6 - Rest 5 minutes
Step 7 - 1 Quart of mash liquid pulled after vorlauf (first turbid)
Step 8 - 6 Quarts of boiling water added to mash - rest at 150*
Step 9 - Rest mash 30 minutes
Step 10 - Raise temp of 1 quart turbid liquid to 176*
Step 11 - 4 Quarts of mash liquid pulled after vorlauf (second turbid), add to first turbid
Step 12 - 5 Quarts of boiling water added to mash - rest at 162*
Step 13 - Heat turbid 1 and turbid 2 to 176*
Step 14 - Heat sparge water to 185*
Step 15 - Add 176* turbid liquid back to mash to rest at 165-167*
Step 16 - Rest 10 minutes
Step 17 - 9 gallons collected from sparge

I took this same logic and multiplied each infusion/pull by ~11.43 (60G/5.25G) and then converted quarts to gallons to make it US friendly. At a glance there appears to be a huge volume difference between what ProMash calculated and the turbid mash process (ProMash = 150G pre boil, calculation=103G pre boil):

60 Gallon Batch Size Mash Schedule
Step 1 - 57.1 Gallons of water heated to 144*
Step 2 - 7.1 Gallons of heated water mixed with grist - grain should rest at 113*
Step 3 - Boil remaining water
Step 4 - Rest mash 20 minutes
Step 5 - 11.4 Gallons added of boiling water - rest at 136*
Step 6 - Rest 5 minutes
Step 7 - 2.9 Gallons of mash liquid pulled after vorlauf (first turbid)
Step 8 - 17.1 Gallons of boiling water added to mash - rest at 150*
Step 9 - Rest mash 30 minutes
Step 10 - Raise temp of 2.9 Gallons turbid liquid to 176*
Step 11 - 11.4 Gallons of mash liquid pulled after vorlauf (second turbid), add to first turbid
Step 12 - 14.3 Gallons of boiling water added to mash - rest at 162*
Step 13 - Heat turbid 1 and turbid 2 to 176*
Step 14 - Heat sparge water to 185*
Step 15 - Add 176* turbid liquid back to mash to rest at 165-167*
Step 16 - Rest 10 minutes
Step 17 - 102.9 gallons collected from sparge

Does anyone know if there is a fatal error in my simple calculation?

I have added the calculation spreadsheet.
View attachment Lambic Sched.zip

I think the problem is that you would not get the same boil off percentage from the larger kettle (it seems like even "just" 40 gallons would take considerably more than 4-5 hours to boil off). That is because as volume increases the surface area of the kettle does not increase proportionally. You might want to do a wet run and see how much water you can boil off in an hour before brewday.

Also you may want to up the grain from my recipe as I came in under gravity a bit and had to add a bit of DME to get it on target. You may also want to aim for more than 60 gallons so you have extra for topping off, loss etc...

I feel like you said somewhere that you are brewing this in Maryland. Where/when are you doing it? I’m in DC, so if timing/location works out I'd be happy to lend a hand (and some beer) if you guys toss me a six pack of the finished product.

Stefin will have to post the actual town, but it is right outside of DC. The brew date is 10/10.

You are right, boil off is what I am missing. I believe the MD Brewday crew had this issue with a previous group brew. I will have to make some adjustments and repost.

Ryan_PA said:

Come on, has there ever been a single issue with one of our brew days?

I can ask around for a fly sparge arm, or we can just make one with a temporary rig job. Some soft copper and a drill and we are golden, but you have to keep in mind this is not a traditional mash/sparge. We have to do a funky schedule, similar to pulling many decoctions to convert the wheat.

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Looks like the mash part is funky, but so far - the sparge just seems to be "sparge"....with no funky steps.

120g of sparge is going to be...a nightmare.

Eh, it is a risk/reward thing in my book. It isn't like taking some honey and shaking in some water then tossing in a yeast pack, ya know...

Takoma PArk 20912

claphamsa said:

Takoma PArk 20912

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I recently bought a house on the DC side of Takoma Park (moving in on Saturday)... so if you guys want a hand, just let me know.

Edit: Crap, just saw 10/10, I'll be up in MA for an extended Columbus Day weekend.

ooo a local! w00t!

claphamsa said:

ooo a local! w00t!

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We'll have to get together for a (more moderate) brew some day.

I've got the starter batch going now. I will be wrapping up the mash in about an hour, currently sparging. The previously posted mash schedule, while appearing fairly complicated, were very strait forward and easy. I would not recommend this mash schedule if you are drinking during the brew, but it does make for a seemingly quick mash. You are constantly doing something. I will be boiling tomorrow first thing. 240 minute boil, so yeah, not happening tonight.

Oh, one thing well worth noting, milling raw wheat sucks hardcore. Good thing we can get it milled from north country. I really think I shortened the life of my drill by 50% just crushing 3 lbs.

Starter batch is done and in the bucket, anxiously awaiting a new home.

So I have my 3rd batch of beer fermenting on the Roselare blend. The cell count is huge since I just kept pitching on the yeast cake. The second ferment took off in a matter of 3-4 hours and completed in like 3 days. The third ferment was just moved to the fermenter tonight again on the same yeast cake. After this completes, there will be lots of healthy and hungry yeast cells in there. Should I save this for lambic day? The 4th generation should have a higher level of acidity than the previous 3 batches. Thoughts?

Just under a month from brewday!!! I think we have the recipe, equipment, grain order hops order and yeast figured out.

I still think we need to sit down and go over this --- I see major water issues with mash/sparge...but as long as I'm just "in" this - and not the ringleader, then I'm ok with just letting you guys take control.

hold on.... I thought you were in charge?

What are the sparge concerns?

Ryan_PA said:

Just under a month from brewday!!! I think we have the recipe, equipment, grain order hops order and yeast figured out.

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Wait, I thought this was Oct 16th?? Or am I lost?

Ryan_PA said:

What are the sparge concerns?

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We're going to be sparging ~130g of water into a 55g mashtun.

Something doesn't sound right...

Alan.

its October 10th! for lambic!

and you do 3 batch sparges......

Yeah, you just scared the crap out of me. i am out of town for a bachelor party on the 16th. I think it has always been the 10th.

For the sparge, we will have to do multi sparges. It is impossible for us to pull off a single sparge unless I am bringing my kids swimming pool down.

Just got 3lbs of 1.5% halletaur in the mail!

Hey Al, I am spitballing here, but I think we will have to use about 6 keggles to manage the strike/mash/turbid/sparge duties and 2 55G mash tuns. I did some calculations to figure this and will share when I change my shorthand into readable English.

I think we will also need 1 55G boil kettle. Can we get the 2 MTs and 1 BK from your club? I think you already said yes to this.

I think it should go without saying we will need at least 6-7 propane tanks, 6-7 burners and at least as many keggles. I have 3 tanks, 2 burners and 2 keggles. That means we need:

• Keggles still 0 required - more are welcomed!
  • 2 from me
  • 3 from Clap
  • 1 borrowed from BreWirfel
• Propane tanks still 0 required - more would still be welcome
  • 3 from me
  • 4 from Clap
• Burners still 1 required
  • 2 from me
  • 2 from Clap
  • 2 borrowed from BreWirfel (it is actually 1 unit but has two burners - capable of fitting 2 keggles)

Jezter's brew club equipment needs:
2 Mash Tuns and 2 Boil Kettles
(I will have a pickup that weekend to assist with the transport)

i have 4 propane tanks 2 burners and should have 3 15 G vessels

I have added the mash/boil schedule with my rough calculations.

You can see it here (note there are two tabs):
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tQRMnQGtwsnNZUC5bkpz0Ag&output=html

It breaks down the vessel management for mashing and boiling.

I really would appreciate anyone to double check my thinking, assuming you can follow my logic.

it makes sense mostly, the google spreadsheet makes it hard ot tell whats what tho.

Ah, crap. It stripped some of my formatting. I will put the xls file on my webserver today.

Updated the equipment needs post

For yeast and other chompers, here's what I am bringing:

Half gallon of Roselare yeast slurry (4th gen)
5G starter lambic with one wyeast lambic blend and one white labs sour blend
5 packs of wyeast lambic blend

Also, we can pitch the dregs of the beers I am bringing:
Rodenbach Grand Cru
New Belgium La Folie
Cantillion Rose de Gambrinus

I cannot wait for next weekend...

Ryan_PA said:

Also, we can pitch the dregs of the beers I am bringing:
Rodenbach Grand Cru
New Belgium La Folie

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Pretty sure those are both filtered and/or pasteurized.

Damnit. Well I am still bringing them and drinking them.

no im drinking them!

Tonedef131 said:

Pretty sure those are both filtered and/or pasteurized.

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Is it certain that La Folie, in the new package, is filtered and/or pasteurized? I've used a 07 bottles' dregs to bump up my Roselare fermented Oud Bruin, and it's doing quite well.

ooo, another DC brewer