Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

cscade said:

Here's some details from Dave Green's "heady topper inspired" DIPA from this issue of BYO. He is definitely focusing on the whirlpool aspect hard.

Feel free to ignore details (malt bill, Citra...) I'm just posting this for reference.

OVER THE TOPPER DIPA
Dave Green - BYO Magazine Vol 19 Number 2

Post boil volume: 6.5 Gallons
Boil length: 75 minutes
Mash temp: 155F
Mash duration: 40 minutes

OG = 1.074
FG = 1.012
IBU = 100+
SRM = 6
ABV = 8%

Grist

• 13lbs British pale ale malt
• 4oz Caravienne
• 1lb Sucrose

Hop Schedule

• 19.5 AAU Simcoe, boiled 30 minutes
• 5.75 AAU Cascade, at flameout
• 17.2 AAU Apollo, at flameout
• 13 AAU Simcoe at flameout
• --- start whirlpool ---
• --- after 30 minutes, reduce wort temp to 170F ---
• 10.5 AAU Centennial, 30 minutes into whirlpool
• 13 AAU Simcoe, 30 minutes into whirlpool
• 14 AAU Columbus, 30 minutes into whirlpool
• --- whirlpool for a further 15 minutes (45 minutes total + time for reducing to 170F I guess)---

Dry Hopping

• 1oz Chinook, dry hop 1
• 1oz Citra, dry hop 1
• 1oz Simcoe, dry hop 1
• --- hold 7 days, then rack off hops ---
• 1.25oz Centennial, dry hop 2
• 1.25oz Simcoe, dry hop 2
• --- hold 5 days ---

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thanks for the post!!!!!


has anyone tried a pearl base with a touch of caravienne before????

Has anyone emailed this suggestion to Can You Brew It? I would be shocked if they havent gotten this request before but maybe we should flood them with requests?

Been following this thread pretty heavily and just thanking y'all for all the hard work that's gone into it.

I've seen good discussion around about maintaining the resiny quality of hops with a whirlpool done below 170 - glad to see BYO implement this technique.

Coff said:

Has anyone emailed this suggestion to Can You Brew It? I would be shocked if they havent gotten this request before but maybe we should flood them with requests?

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CYBI is no more. They cite time constraints as well as not getting lots of info from some brewers as the main reasons. In its place is now "Brewing with Style" which goes through commercial examples of the styles. Jamil and Tasty have brought Plise back for this show as well.

It's a shame, but understandable.

You know what, I did hear that. My fault, carry on!

Subscibed

Thanks for the recipe post, now I don't have to go leaf through a copy at the LHBS secretly. I think Apollo is definitely a possibility here. Here's a post from another member on Apollo:

I have done a single hop pale ale with them, and used them in IPAs also. They are clean, with a citrus-passionfruit to them (smell and taste). I won't do a single hop again, but combine them with some Amarillo, Centennial, Cascade or similar to get a nice contrast of flavors.

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Although the recipe doesn't fit in the confines of the information we know about HT, it might taste like it depending on the yeast he used and other variables. It's interesting to see that if this indeed is close, what the actual flavors are in Heady. With Apollo and Citra, that would be a lot more citrus/passionfruit/mango than we've produced already.

The recipe in the mag calls for US-05 btw.

just out of curiosity, why has citra been ruled out? was it stated in a blog post?

mewithstewpid said:

just out of curiosity, why has citra been ruled out? was it stated in a blog post?

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Yeah, I asked John if he used citra and he told me he did not (yet). Those were his words.

I have no experience with Apollo, I'll have to try some out.

@vegan I didn't post the yeast listed with the recipe because it was the bog standard WLP001/US-05 suggestion that seems to accompany every home brew recipe in the world, and we flat out know that's wrong for this clone. My Conan is in hand (thank you), and I will be brewing a non-clone beer with it in a few weeks.

cscade said:

I have no experience with Apollo, I'll have to try some out.

@vegan I didn't post the yeast listed with the recipe because it was the bog standard WLP001/US-05 suggestion that seems to accompany every home brew recipe in the world, and we flat out know that's wrong for this clone. My Conan is in hand (thank you), and I will be brewing a non-clone beer with it in a few weeks.

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NP. I wonder how the recipe was changed, if at all, to account for using US-05. What hops were used to replace that Conan character, which Kimmich says make the beer what it is? I think it can be done, maybe Apollo and Citra are those hops that make a US-05 IPA taste like HT. You can get peach from US-05 and 1056 from low, sub 60 temps, so I guess it's going to be similar.

One thing US-05 would have in it's favor on this is its relative dustyness. Doesn't clear for squat without extended aging. Looking at the vials of Conan, it seems to have almost no flocculation tendency at all.

Very interesting thread.
Just thought I'd post a link to a NZ Co2 Hop Extract, but it looks like the minimum size is a 300g can.
http://www.nzhops.co.nz/products/co2_hop_extract.html

Supercritical CO2 hop extract made from our New Zealand varieties by Nutrizeal Ltd.
CO2 hop extract is a golden to tan, thick honey-like paste with all the natural hop variety specific brewing characteristics. As a pure resin, the alpha acids concentration is variety specific, typically between 25% and 60%.CO2 Hop Extract Typically contains between 3% to 12% hop oils, depending on variety.

Packaging
Available in drums, pails or cans for the varieties Super Alpha, Green Bullet, Pacific Gem, Southern Cross, and others upon request. New Zealand C02 Hop Extract can be packed according to a set amount of alpha acid by weight in partially-filled containers (for example 300 gram alpha in a can. At 50% alpha concentration in the extract can will contain 600 grams of extract.)

theveganbrewer said:

Yeah, I asked John if he used citra and he told me he did not (yet). Those were his words.

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i mean, i GUESS thats a reliable source. haha


Having never had HT before, how does it compare flavor-profile wise to Gandhi bot? I ask because gandhi bot just explodes with pineapple. could the two have similar hop additions?

mewithstewpid said:

Having never had HT before, how does it compare flavor-profile wise to Gandhi bot? I ask because gandhi bot just explodes with pineapple. could the two have similar hop additions?

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They have similarities, but they're both very different beers. I've never side by sided the two, but I've had a good number of both pretty recently.

nhwrecker said:

Very interesting thread.
Just thought I'd post a link to a NZ Co2 Hop Extract, but it looks like the minimum size is a 300g can.
http://www.nzhops.co.nz/products/co2_hop_extract.html

Supercritical CO2 hop extract made from our New Zealand varieties by Nutrizeal Ltd.
CO2 hop extract is a golden to tan, thick honey-like paste with all the natural hop variety specific brewing characteristics. As a pure resin, the alpha acids concentration is variety specific, typically between 25% and 60%.CO2 Hop Extract Typically contains between 3% to 12% hop oils, depending on variety.

Packaging
Available in drums, pails or cans for the varieties Super Alpha, Green Bullet, Pacific Gem, Southern Cross, and others upon request. New Zealand C02 Hop Extract can be packed according to a set amount of alpha acid by weight in partially-filled containers (for example 300 gram alpha in a can. At 50% alpha concentration in the extract can will contain 600 grams of extract.)

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If I'm reading that right, they are saying the hop extract is a concentrated paste, and that the aa% is between 25-60%? That's quite the leap.

25% aa will only require 1-1.5 oz. added at 90 minutes to bitter this beer to about 90-110 IBUs, with sub 5 minute additions taking care of the rest to total 120 Tinseth.

*UPDATED as of 2/16/2013*

Between the HBT and BA threads I’ve summed up all the pertinent information regarding a Heady Topper clone. Keep in mind much of this information is here say, but I tried to credit the member and link to the page which contains the claim.

Anything italicized is linked directly to John Kimmich, his workers, or The Alchemist Brewery in general.

Beer Specs:
Style: American Double India Pale Ale (The Alchemist Brewery website)
OG: ~1.070 (bobbrews and skivtjerry)
FG: ~1.010 (bobbrews and skivtjerry)
ABV: 8% (The Alchemist Brewery website)
IBU: 120 (The Alchemist Brewery website), 80-90 Rager (bobbrews), 75-80 lab tested (theveganbrewer)
SRM: 4-7 (theveganbrewer, koopa, and Airborneguy), 5.0-5.4 (SkinnyPete)

Malt:
Base: Thomas Fawcett Pearl (The Alchemist Brewery photo)
Specialty: NO Crystal (theveganbrewer, mmonacel, and sweetcell)
Adjunct: ~5% or less sugar (orthellomcbane and skivtjerry)
*Other possibilities may include: Wheat, Munich, Carapils, Honey Malt, Oats*
*If similar malt bill to El Jefe, could contain Pearl, Caramalt, Carafa Special III (ChrisNH)*

Hops:
6 varieties used (The Alchemist Brewery sign)
Known: Simcoe (bobbrews)
Highly Likely: Amarillo, Columbus
Likely: Chinook, Centennial, Cascade, Summit, Nugget
Possible: Riwaka, Moteuka, Ahtanum, Galaxy, Zythos, Apollo, Horizon
Not used: Citra (bobbrews and theveganbrewer)
On The Alchemist’s ‘Glorious Hops’ Sign: Citra, Centennial, Nugget, Tomahawk, Cascade, Columbus, Simcoe, Amarillo, Chinook, Warrior, Bullion, Fuggles, Golding (The Alchemist Brewery sign)
*NO FWH (theveganbrewer)*
*CO2 hop extract for bittering (theveganbrewer, BeerCrafter2011, and mmonacel), perhaps of NZ origin (PissyFingers)*
*All "actual" hops added at 5 minutes or less (theveganbrewer)*

Yeast:
Conan Yeast (private strain) (MSNBC article and theveganbrewer)
*Confirmed as an ALE yeast (Coff)*
Yeast culturing: here and here
*Most of aroma comes from yeast (theveganbrewer)*
*Potential for intentional underpitching of Conan yeast (theveganbrewer)*

Process:
Mash Temperature: < 150F (bobbrews and orthellomcbane) probably a step mash (bobbrews)
Post-boil: Big whirlpool (theveganbrewer)
*Cool to 170-180F before adding whirlpool hops to maximize aroma (SkinnyPete)*
Fermentation temperature: 58F at brewery (Skelator), 68F on sign (theveganbrewer), 60-64F from experience (Knecht_Rupprecht, SkinnyPete, NordeastBrewer77, and orthellomcbane)
Yeast Attenuation: ~82% (bobbrews, orthellomcbane, Skelator)
Dry-hopping: Double or triple dry-hopped for only several days each (mmonacel)
*Rousing the dry hops is common for the style (theveganbrewer)*
*Simcoe/Columbus as base for dry hops, ~3:1 ratio, >5oz per 5gal (theveganbrewer)*
Hopback: Used prior to packaging (Petekiteworld)
Filtering: Coming out of kettle (theveganbrewer), None at canning (John Kimmich)
Cold Conditioned (before canning): 2-3 weeks (theveganbrewer) at 40F (theveganbrewer)
Entire length from kettle to can: 28 days (The Alchemist Brewery Website)
*It is not can-conditioned (LaFinDuMonde)*
*Therefore, fermentation timeframe is 7-14 days*

Similar Beers (to help with recipe formulation?): Lagunitas Hop Stoopid, Ithica Flower Power, Surley Abrasive, Kern River Citra DIPA

Current issues at hand: Hop bill - achieving correct dankness and pine (and not fruitiness!) in hop profile, malt bill - achieving correct sweetness in malt profile
Both the hop and malt bills are extremely close, but just need to be tweaked slightly to hit the clone dead on

Thanks for the update. I would just add that we have confirmation from John that he uses extract for bittering and the rest of the hops are 5 minutes or less. I am just passing the info along from him, it's not based off my findings.

Using what we know so far, this is still a rough draft, but I am planning on brewing this when I harvest my own Conan after my Vermont trip this Spring. The hop selection is still the toughest part of this attempt. But the NZ hop extract makes sense. Though if I can't find it, I'll just use regular CTZ hop extract. All late additions are pellet hops.

1.072-74 OG / 1.012-14 FG
8.0% ABV
6.5 to 7 SRM
100 F (15 min) Acid Rest, 147 F (60 min) Beta-Rest, 156 F (20 min) Sacc-Rest
90 Minute Boil
5.5 Gallon Batch

87%, 14 lbs. Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt
5%, 12 oz. Thomas Fawcett Torrified Wheat
5%, 12 oz. Thomas Fawcett Oat Malt
3%, 8 oz. Simpsons Golden Naked Oats

*For the 90 minute, bittering addition:

Approx. 120-ish IBUs (Tinseth) of HopShot

*For the 5-1 minute, late boil addition:

1.00 oz. Columbus
1.00 oz. Simcoe

*For the 60 minute warm hopstand (slow-chill from 165 F down to 58 F), 0.0 IBUs:

1.25 oz. Columbus
1.25 oz. Simcoe
0.75 oz. Centennial
0.75 oz. Apollo

*For the 12 day, 66-68 F, 3-stage dryhop (4 days each addition, pull out & discard old when adding new):

1.75 oz. Columbus
1.75 oz. Simcoe
0.75 oz. Centennial
0.75 oz. Apollo
0.75 oz. Amarillo

Healthy, appropriate-sized Conan Starter @ 82-84% Attenuation
Ferment at 63-64F, then free rise to 66-68 F for the Dryhop

Just got a fresh heady in the mail today - my first one ever. I have never been so excited to try a beer. Should I drink it from the can or from a glass? I know what the instructions say, but I almost want to see it as much as I want to drink it...

mrrabbit said:

Just got a fresh heady in the mail today - my first one ever. I have never been so excited to try a beer. Should I drink it from the can or from a glass? I know what the instructions say, but I almost want to see it as much as I want to drink it...

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Maybe half and half? If you save the bottom 1/2-1" of beer you might be able to get Conan yeast out of it.

That's what I was thinking, but do you think I could get enough out of one can? I have never harvested yeast before so please excuse if its a dumb question

mrrabbit said:

That's what I was thinking, but do you think I could get enough out of one can? I have never harvested yeast before so please excuse if its a dumb question

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Yeah, you can, I do mine one can at a time. You can start in a small bell canning jar and then slowly work your way to a bigger flask. You just gotta take it slow and do small steps. Check the OP in the thread for the two blog posts on culturing it out of the can.

theveganbrewer said:

Yeah, you can, I do mine one can at a time. You can start in a small bell canning jar and then slowly work your way to a bigger flask. You just gotta take it slow and do small steps. Check the OP in the thread for the two blog posts on culturing it out of the can.

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Vegan - you're the best. I just read them both - this is what I will do. I will post back when done.

I like the idea of Golden Naked Oats in this.

theveganbrewer said:

I like the idea of Golden Naked Oats in this.

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How much are you thinking?

I ask because of a few things. One, I've currently got a Saison going with GNO's in them. Not much, only .5# in a 11# grist, and did so because I wanted some color, a little swetness, but also because of the "berry" note it's said they contribute to a beer, along with the other attributes of an oat.

I can't see GNO being in there myself, unless it's a super small amount. If "no crystal" was said to be in there, this could be included as a crystal, but also could be a toss off of the way around getting some malt sweetness in there wouldn't technically using a malt labeled crystal.

Berry notes in the HT I don't know about though. Can't remember them.

I followed the entire previous thread so.... what the heck. Subscribed.

FATC1TY said:

How much are you thinking?

I ask because of a few things. One, I've currently got a Saison going with GNO's in them. Not much, only .5# in a 11# grist, and did so because I wanted some color, a little swetness, but also because of the "berry" note it's said they contribute to a beer, along with the other attributes of an oat.

I can't see GNO being in there myself, unless it's a super small amount. If "no crystal" was said to be in there, this could be included as a crystal, but also could be a toss off of the way around getting some malt sweetness in there wouldn't technically using a malt labeled crystal.

Berry notes in the HT I don't know about though. Can't remember them.

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I will now take back my words, details to come.

kaz4121 said:

*UPDATED as of 2/16/2013*

Between the HBT and BA threads I’ve summed up all the pertinent information regarding a Heady Topper clone.

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thanks for the recap.

i would add in the BYO info about whirlpooling. while their prescription might not be perfect, i strongly suspect that some sort of whirlpooling is going on. their take is as good a place as any to start with.

Whirlpooling has to be going on. No way you will be getting that intense flavor, and some bitterness from just a simple flame out addition alone.

Vegan claims there's definitely a kettle addition at 5 minutes or less (0-2 minutes seems more likely for me). I also believe there would definitely be a long, warm aroma steep / hopstand.

I think the 0-5 Minute Hot Kettle Addition and the Sub-180 F Warm Hopstand are two completely separate additions that do different things.

The hot 0-5 minute addition contributes some IBUs and a different type of flavor than the 160 F-ish hopstand, which is too low for isomerization of IBUs, and therefore does not contribute bitterness. Rather, those delicate aromas are better upheld with this warm addition.

In any case, there certainly is a hell of a lot of flavor-aroma building going on from 0-5 minutes left in the boil all the way to chilling the wort down to the high 50's / low 60's (pitch temps for this beer). Excluding the early hop extract addition (which is providing 95%+ of the total IBUs), I would bet that at least 50% of the total recipe hops are being added at 0-5 minutes PLUS warm hopstand... the other 50% or so is for the staged dryhop.

I have updated the first post with this information. I have confirmed Amarillo is in the recipe. There are also no oats of any kind, nor any munich.

theveganbrewer said:

I have updated the first post with this information. I have confirmed Amarillo is in the recipe. There are also no oats of any kind, nor any munich.

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Source?

theveganbrewer said:

I have updated the first post with this information. I have confirmed Amarillo is in the recipe. There are also no oats of any kind, nor any munich.

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Good info!

On a side note, If anyone has access to some Heady, I can get Nugget Nectar or Hopslam to trade. I know they're not nearly as rare as heady, but though I'd throw it out there.

I have confirmed Amarillo is in the recipe.

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yeah need a source

Well, it wasn't pretty. I had to tip the Rocket sideways for a couple mins at the beginning to prime it....



Once the beer began flowing, with about 7 psi behind it, it was a thing of beauty. I had to d¡ck with the regulator the whole time, so I only got this one pic. I pulled a sample before throwing the keg in the 'rator and man, awesome!! It's not Heady, but it's damn good. Definitely less amarillo next time, probably less centen too. I'm thinking nugget instead of cascade, and lots of the danker hops late. Can't wait to get to drinking on this.

Oh, and I officially name this beer Teady Hopper. It was a toss up between that and Heady Trooper, but I'll leave that name for Danger.

What did you pack the Rocket with?

PseudoChef said:

What did you pack the Rocket with?

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Simcoe and Columbus, roughly an oz each, but I eyeballed it, so give or take. I made that call because the beer seemed lacking in dank/pine aroma. The rocket added some, there was a definite difference (and enhanced simcoe character) from the pre and post rocket samples.

theveganbrewer said:

I just read that a Heady Clone will be making it into the March/April 2013 issue of BYO. Well, it says a recipe inspired by Heady.

http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/products/Brew-Your-Own-March-2013.html

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This is awesome! Nordeast, I'll have to borrow your copy when you're done with it! Or just get my own subscription, of course.

cdubbaya said:

This is awesome! Nordeast, I'll have to borrow your copy when you're done with it! Or just get my own subscription, of course.

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Recipe is on page 5 of this thread I think, somewhere in here.

theveganbrewer said:

Recipe is on page 5 of this thread I think, somewhere in here.

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LoL. He meant the BYO, I've been raving about hop stands and we're employing one on a pale ale we have in the works.

cdubbaya said:

This is awesome! Nordeast, I'll have to borrow your copy when you're done with it! Or just get my own subscription, of course.

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I was already planning on bringing it next brew day, along with a growler of Teady Hopper.