question about freeze concentration

I've been watching moonshiners on discovery and saw an episode where they were making scotch shine. They started by germinating barley then smoking the germ. Afterwards they mashed, fermented, and then processed to make the shine. So minus the processing part it would seem the process is pretty much the same as making beer without hops.

So if a person was to make an high gravity ale without adding the hops then was to fractionally concentrate the resulting brew, would this approximately be considered the same?

Nope because you are also concentrating the off flavors and any other flaws. After a certain point you wouldn't want to drink what you end up with

JeepDiver said:

Nope because you are also concentrating the off flavors and any other flaws. After a certain point you wouldn't want to drink what you end up with

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I thought that Utopias and some of the extreme abv brews were made by fractional concentration.

All eisbiers are made this way. Lots of alcohol but lots of flavors too. As far as TTB is concerned all means of concentrating the alcohol are the same in terms of the hoops, licenses, taxes etc.

ajdelange said:

All eisbiers are made this way. Lots of alcohol but lots of flavors too. As far as TTB is concerned all means of concentrating the alcohol are the same in terms of the hoops, licenses, taxes etc.

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Actually there have been numerous threads on here about freeze concentration and the atf does not see it the same as distillation is the consensus. there is a company that has made a beer close to 50% abv through freeze concentration and super attenuation of extremely high gravity wort.

http://www.gizmag.com/worlds-strongest-beers/15256/

It hardly matters what the consensus is. What matters is how the TTB interprets the regulations. 27 CFR 25.262 says that a brewery may concentrate beer but must reconstitute it to no more than it's original strength. No, this is not identical to how one treats distilled spirits but the intent is pretty clear. I'm not a lawyer, however and today's TTB does somehow seem kinder and gentler.

I spoke with a lawyer, we are allowed to discuss freeze concentrating as it's a grey area in Texas where the servers are.

That being said, please refer to is as freeze concentrating. Semantics, I know, but still.

But the other subject is still off bounds? If someone asks 'How do you measure the alcohol content of beer?' or 'How do you check diacetyl?' I can't answer because the servers are located in Texas?

Confused in Virginia.

ajdelange said:

But the other subject is still off bounds? If someone asks 'How do you measure the alcohol content of beer?' or 'How do you check diacetyl?' I can't answer because the servers are located in Texas?

Confused in Virginia.

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HAHA- no it's the "d" word (distillation) that isn't allowed.

We can discuss freeze concentration here on this forum, in addition to other subjects as usual. Illegal activities are what are out of bounds! You can talk about other subjects in Virginia, and on the forum as well.

Even more confused now. In Virginia I assay alcohol and diacetyl using the process described by that word. It's quite legal. I even have a letter from the BATF specifically authorizing me to do it (somewhere). I understand that in Texas the apparatus, even the flasks, are considered 'precursor' something or other and can not be purchased without special permission from the state. Bottom line: Could I describe MOA Beer 4 and Beer 25 here or not?

I am kind of curious if there is a alcohol level that they find illegal no matter how you get to that level. I do not drink anything stronger than beer so I would not know but I think some brandies or something along those lines are about 20 % and I think I have read here on the forum where people have achieved that.

ajdelange said:

Even more confused now. In Virginia I assay alcohol and diacetyl using the process described by that word. It's quite legal. I even have a letter from the BATF specifically authorizing me to do it (somewhere). I understand that in Texas the apparatus, even the flasks, are considered 'precursor' something or other and can not be purchased without special permission from the state. Bottom line: Could I describe MOA Beer 4 and Beer 25 here or not?

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I have no idea what you are saying. I sent you a pm, respond to me with a fuller explanation please.

Greetings! I'm in Pennsylvania, and my LHBS stocks equipment and books for the "other" concentration method. In fact the owner said he wants to have in-store demonstrations - and I thought PA was tough! State stores, wine/liquor and beer separate, etc. Different strokes, right?

BTW I've been totally spooked about freeze concentration because of the naughty alcohols that concentrate and f**k with your head. I was gonna make old-fashioned apple jack but not at the expense of 12 painful hrs the following day!

loftybrewer said:

Greetings! I'm in Pennsylvania, and my LHBS stocks equipment and books for the "other" concentration method. In fact the owner said he wants to have in-store demonstrations - and I thought PA was tough! State stores, wine/liquor and beer separate, etc. Different strokes, right?

BTW I've been totally spooked about freeze concentration because of the naughty alcohols that concentrate and f**k with your head. I was gonna make old-fashioned apple jack but not at the expense of 12 painful hrs the following day!

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I had a Rochfort 12 that had me still feeling strange the next day. I wondered if it is because Belgians typically don't control the temps as much creating more of the 'bad stuff'. No way I would want to concentrate something like that. I'd tend more towards a lager.

The local HBS here says he has seen an influx of customers since the Moonshiner episode started to run. He's afraid one of them is going to blow themselves up.