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eboeing

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Hi, Everybody:

I just stumbled on HomeBrewTalk.com while doing a few Google searches, and I'm really glad I did; you guys seem to have the most active home brewing forum around.

This question has probably been asked before, so please feel free to direct me to appropriate threads.

I live in a cramped apartment and we have absolutely NO room. There's no way my wife will approve of any kegerator even as big as a dorm fridge. (And heck, I shouldn't blame it on my wife; we're so cramped that even I don't want a kegerator that big!)

Perfect for me would be the smallest possible refrigerator that could fit a corny keg. I'm thinking something like a 2-foot tall column with a 12"x12" footprint.

I'm surprised nothing like this exists. But since it doesn't, I'd really like to try building one myself.

Can anybody here direct me to custom fridge-building resources?

Thanks! I'm glad to have joined your forums!
 
I'm not sure how you'd build one, (but I'm thinking peltier chips?)....but also remember you need a CO2 bottle...which has at least the footprint of a keg...plus some....I'd plan on 15x20 for a footprint....

Good luck!
 
Good point about the CO2; I've seen kegerators where the CO2 tank is kept externally, & I was thinking about doing something similar. (Unless of course, that's an absolutely terrible idea.)
 
Welcome to HBT!
It's pretty rare when we get a first post question that hasn't been asked before but I think you might have done it. Congratulations! :D

I don't have an answer but have you looked at smaller keg option? You can buy 2.5 gallon kegs that could fit in your kitchen fridge. Not quite as cool but with a picnic tap, it would work.

We have a bunch of do-it-yourself guys on here so hopefully one will come along that can help you.
 
Lol. I'm VERY surprised none of the enterprising people here haven't looked into this one before.

I considered 2.5 gallon kegs (and even bought the "party pig"-- hated it), but even our fridge is tiny & I wound up having not enough room for food!

I'd say shortyjacobs was thinking along my same lines when he mentioned peltier cooling; I used to hang out with a bunch of hardcore computer overclockers, and all those guys used to design their own custom peltier cooling systems. I figure if they can do that for their computers, I can do something similar for my beer!
 
eboeing said:
Good point about the CO2; I've seen kegerators where the CO2 tank is kept externally, & I was thinking about doing something similar. (Unless of course, that's an absolutely terrible idea.)
Click to expand...

That's a fine idea....just wanted to remind you that it still takes up space, either inside or out. If you go the peltier route, hell, keep it outside so you can have a more efficient cooler.
 
shortyjacobs said:
That's a fine idea....just wanted to remind you that it still takes up space, either inside or out. If you go the peltier route, hell, keep it outside so you can have a more efficient cooler.
Click to expand...

Haha, I'm thinking the fire escape/landing is exactly the right place for the thing I have in mind!
 
Have you looked at the Tap a Draft system? I hate bottling and didn't have room for kegging when I first started so I used the TAD system for over a year. It isn't as nice a corny's but I thought it worked pretty well. Good luck.

Cheers.
 
OK, I've combed through the archives and found a couple of interesting things:

Back in 2008, "TheMiller" wanted to do something similar to what I have in mind, converting a whiskey barrel into a fridge. I'm not sure if he got anywhere with it, but he did post a link to this cool thing, but it's like $375 and you'd have to ship it from New Zealand.

I also found this thread about making a fermentation chiller out of styrofoam, chilled by ice, and then there was this other awesome thing where Yuri Rage welded a cooling device to the inside of a keg!

Unfortunately, it seems like nobody's really been able to make a go of even making a fermentation chiller with a peltier system, much less a kegerator for serving purposes, which would be running 24/7/365.

SO....

I may have to resign myself to finding & buying THE SMALLEST fridge that can still fit a corny keg.

I've found some 2.8 cubit foot fridges, like the Haier NuCool (17.75 x 20.75 x 28.75), the Curtis FR280 (17.5 x 18.7 x 31.9), or Frigidaire FRC03L2DB (19.5 x 19.8 x 27.7). But these are a little bigger than I'd like, and they seem very difficult to find.

Better for me would be the "Coleman PowerChill Thermoelectric Cooler," which comes in at 17.25 x 16.0 x 24.0. Problems: a) it's meant for camping & tailgating and probably isn't supposed to be left on all the time, and b) it looks like it may be difficult to extend a tap from the top.

New question: Has anybody here tried to make a kegerator out of a Coleman PowerChill (or something similar)? Any pitfalls I should look out for?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
eboeing said:
OK, I've combed through the archives and found a couple of interesting things:

Back in 2008, "TheMiller" wanted to do something similar to what I have in mind, converting a whiskey barrel into a fridge. I'm not sure if he got anywhere with it, but he did post a link to this cool thing, but it's like $375 and you'd have to ship it from New Zealand.

I also found this thread about making a fermentation chiller out of styrofoam, chilled by ice, and then there was this other awesome thing where Yuri Rage welded a cooling device to the inside of a keg!

Unfortunately, it seems like nobody's really been able to make a go of even making a fermentation chiller with a peltier system, much less a kegerator for serving purposes, which would be running 24/7/365.

SO....

I may have to resign myself to finding & buying THE SMALLEST fridge that can still fit a corny keg.

I've found some 2.8 cubit foot fridges, like the Haier NuCool (17.75 x 20.75 x 28.75), the Curtis FR280 (17.5 x 18.7 x 31.9), or Frigidaire FRC03L2DB (19.5 x 19.8 x 27.7). But these are a little bigger than I'd like, and they seem very difficult to find.

Better for me would be the "Coleman PowerChill Thermoelectric Cooler," which comes in at 17.25 x 16.0 x 24.0. Problems: a) it's meant for camping & tailgating and probably isn't supposed to be left on all the time, and b) it looks like it may be difficult to extend a tap from the top.

New question: Has anybody here tried to make a kegerator out of a Coleman PowerChill (or something similar)? Any pitfalls I should look out for?
Click to expand...

No idea if you could convert it. I just thought I'd mention that both the NuCool and the PowerChill use Peltier chips for their cooling.....not sure if you realized that ;)....

I know people use NuCools for lagering fridges, (search HBT for nucool), so I bet it would work for a kegerator.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
As an add on, I don't know how well this would work, but I'm wondering about basically a thermoelectric cooled jockey box.

Something like this:http://cgi.ebay.com/Water-Dispenser...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0d526002

is "chill-on-demand", (it only chills the water it's dispensing). What if you took that apart and used the cooling coil, and ran your beer through it as you dispensed? Or came up with something else that would chill on demand, (I'm thinking a bunch of copper 1/4" refrigeration tubing sandwiched between a bunch of peltier chips....)...

I don't know what problems you'd face, however....I think the main issue would be either foaming or trouble carbing a keg that's warm. You could probably do this though, by cranking up the CO2 pressure in the keg. 2.4 volumes of carbonation requires 27 PSI at 70 degrees farenheit. 27 PSI requires approximately 25 feet of 3/16" beer line to dissipate the pressure and get you down to serving. So, ideally, you have 20 feet of 3/16ths beer line with say, 10 feet of coiled 1/4" copper refrigeration tubing sandwiched between some peltiers, and you could dispense perfectly carbed, cold, no foam beer....
 
As a double add on, how the hell do those water coolers work?? I just did the math, and assuming beer has the heat capacity of water, and you want to cool it from 70 degrees to 38 degrees, it takes around 36 kJ to cool a pint.

If you pull a pint in 10 seconds, then that's 3.6 kW of cooling power. A 120 volt x 15 amp house supply is only putting out 1.8 kW.

Hmmmmmmmm......
 
Oh, man how cool would THAT be? Like a water cooler, but dispensing beer?

Hang on, let me figure out your math; you may be on to something here.

(Oh and on further investigation, it seems that Coleman Power Chiller only has an interior height of 17", so that's out. :()
 
One thought is to find one of the old cornelius soda systems. I have one I bought a year or so ago to dispense soda but have decided not to do that. It has a 3 gallon cornelius keg inside with copper refrigerator tubing wrapped around it and soldered to it, then it is wrapped in styrofoams. The compressor cools the water in the keg and the Co2 keeps it carbonated for dispensing. I'd sell you the one I have (it's on craigslist right now) but the thing is really heavy.


Edit: Dirty inside, but gives you the idea.
CorneliusInside-400.jpg
 
eboeing said:
Oh, man how cool would THAT be? Like a water cooler, but dispensing beer?

Hang on, let me figure out your math; you may be on to something here.

(Oh and on further investigation, it seems that Coleman Power Chiller only has an interior height of 17", so that's out. :()
Click to expand...


Math is:
1 pint
16 oz
480 mLs
480 grams
at 70 degrees F
or 21 degrees C
want to cool to 38 degrees F
or 3.3 degrees C
a deltaT of around 17.7 degrees
energy = mC(deltaT) = 480 g * 4.19 J/(g*K) * 17.7 K = 36 kJ (about, I already erased the spreadsheet :D)
36 kJ / 10 sec = 3.6 kJ/sec = 3.6 kW/sec

hrmmm
 
conpewter said:
It has a 3 gallon cornelius keg inside with copper refrigerator tubing wrapped around it and soldered to it, then it is wrapped in styrofoams.
Click to expand...

This kind of what what I originally had in mind: wrap the keg in copper wire, keep it cold with refrigerator parts, and then insulate the whole thing. How much do those things go for?
 
Im really thinking of something thats in your apartment that isn't as important as a draft system. like a love seat or day bed or make up table. speaking of tables how about your kitchen table, you can nix it for some TV tables.
 
hammer one said:
Im really thinking of something thats in your apartment that isn't as important as a draft system. like a love seat or day bed or make up table. speaking of tables how about your kitchen table, you can nix it for some TV tables.
Click to expand...

Or put a top on a nice sized kegerator and use it as your kitchen table . No need to get up while eating breakfast lunch or dinner to get a beer .


I might have a new project... "Hey Baby mind if I cut the legs off the kitchen table?"
 
eboeing said:
This kind of what what I originally had in mind: wrap the keg in copper wire, keep it cold with refrigerator parts, and then insulate the whole thing. How much do those things go for?
Click to expand...

I got mine for $100 on craigslist, I don't know how often you'd see them though, this one was built in 1971... If it wasn't as heavy I'd think of using it for a portable system.
 
shortyjacobs said:
Something like this:http://cgi.ebay.com/Water-Dispenser...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0d526002

is "chill-on-demand", (it only chills the water it's dispensing). What if you took that apart and used the cooling coil, and ran your beer through it as you dispensed?

...

I think the main issue would be either foaming or trouble carbing a keg that's warm. You could probably do this though, by cranking up the CO2 pressure in the keg. 2.4 volumes of carbonation requires 27 PSI at 70 degrees farenheit. 27 PSI requires approximately 25 feet of 3/16" beer line to dissipate the pressure and get you down to serving. So, ideally, you have 20 feet of 3/16ths beer line with say, 10 feet of coiled 1/4" copper refrigeration tubing sandwiched between some peltiers, and you could dispense perfectly carbed, cold, no foam beer....
Click to expand...

I'm narrowing in on this "chill on demand" idea as having a lot of potential.

You don't need the whole tower like in the picture above; you'd just need the dispensing unit that the water jug ordinarily plugs into. They sell those new for like $30.

I get the problem of carbonating a warm keg, which I thought would be fixed by upping the pressure. What I didn't count on was the part about having to dissipate the pressure. Is this because the beer would have too much dissolved CO2, or because the pressure would make it shoot out of the tap in a jet of foam? Either way, I see what you mean about 20-25' of beer line.

Then, just before the tap, cool the beer using whatever it is that the water cooler uses to cool water. Replace the water tap with a beer tap, encase the whole thing, and you're off to the races!

(I suppose the big hurdle here is figuring out just how those things cool water, though...)
 
I have been contemplating looking for a counter top fridge (the type that hold a little over a 6 pack of soda). Using a small 9oz paint ball tank and smallest regulator I can find behind. I want if for when I go to my family camp. I fill my 5L mini kegs and take in a cooler now, but hate trying to keep ice on them on long weekends or weeks.
 
sakeyfour said:
I have been contemplating looking for a counter top fridge (the type that hold a little over a 6 pack of soda). Using a small 9oz paint ball tank and smallest regulator I can find behind. I want if for when I go to my family camp. I fill my 5L mini kegs and take in a cooler now, but hate trying to keep ice on them on long weekends or weeks.
Click to expand...

What's your opinion of the 5L mini kegs?
 
I usually keg in Cornies, but I use the 5L for weekends away. I occasionally keg into them directly. Usually I chill and fill a few days before I leave. I can fit 2 into the cooler I have more than enough for me and a few for free loafers.
I had one that I kegged into that almost (read millimeters) blew the plug out of the 2 pice bung, but I have gotten better at priming since.
 
eboeing said:
The jockey boxes I've seen are made of cooler chests, not the right size to hold a corny keg upright. Or are there any that size, too?
Click to expand...

The corney sits outside of the jockey box... and ice goes in the box. Beer flows through lines inside of the box and comes out cold. However, you still need to carb your kegs (harder to do warm) and you need to keep putting ice in and taking water out (not something I would want to do all the time).

Replace your bedside table with a fridge? Not much bigger! Or, maybe kegs just aren't the best idea for you. They do take up space, even when not in use. Having just one would be a pita.. I like a few backups myself.
 
olllllo said:
Do this:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/mini-fridge-total-dissection-photo-story-87692/

Make the cold box as big or as small as you like.
Click to expand...

OK, now we're getting closer. I'll make the cold box out of spray foam insulator, in a cylinder just big enough to hold a corny keg, beer lines, and the guts from a fridge I can get nearly free off craigslist. CO2 tank kept externally. Base will be 2" styrofoam, and lid (with tap sticking out) will be held in place like on a pickling jar. I'm liking this.

olllllo said:
BTW, you'll be serving your beer through plastic lines.
Click to expand...

Touché. :D
 
eboeing said:
OK, now we're getting closer. I'll make the cold box out of spray foam insulator, in a cylinder just big enough to hold a corny keg, beer lines, and the guts from a fridge I can get nearly free off craigslist. CO2 tank kept externally. Base will be 2" styrofoam, and lid (with tap sticking out) will be held in place like on a pickling jar. I'm liking this.
Click to expand...


You may need some area around the keg for air to flow.. and probably want a fan in there to keep air moving. Guess the positive side of a single keg system is that you could tape the sensor to the side of the keg and your beer temp should stay within a couple degrees of desired temp!
 

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