Vanilla bean question

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beersdeep

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I'm trying a mocha porter recipe today. It calls for two vanilla beans in the primary. Is there something I need to do or do I just throw a bean in there? Seems unsanitary to just toss it in, so should I be slicing and gutting it instead?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
 
Split and scape the bean insides and toss it all into the brew. Some will tell you to soak in vodka, or other alcohol, but it's not critical to do that.
 
If you are putting it in the primary, you should wait until the gravity is at it's target FG. Soaking it in burbonfor a week helps to bring out it"s flavor.
 
If you are putting it in the primary, you should wait until the gravity is at it's target FG. Soaking it in burbonfor a week helps to bring out it"s flavor.

Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) is used to extract the vanilla bean oils. That's the main component of the vanilla extract in your kitchen cupboard. Your beer also contains ethanol, so I'd say there's no need to extract it before you add the bean.

However, if you add anything that has not been sanitized to your beer, you are rolling the dice. Go ahead and roll, it's your beer. But I would sanitize the outside of the bean, then splay it, then add it to the beer. The inside of the bean, assuming the case was intact, is probably sterile.

To sanitize, you could use star san or high-ABV ethyl alcohol. Vodka is common, and bourbon would work too. So, I guess I agree with By-Tor. :)
 
I try to dryhop everything after the vigorous fermentation, so I don't blow out any flavor, or gum up the works.
 
passedpawn said:
...But I would sanitize the outside of the bean, then splay it, then add it to the beer.
this advice seems unsound for a couple reasons. First, there's no reason to add the hulls since the flavor is inside, so you're just increasing your risk of infection. Second, by not scraping out the guts, you'll be getting poor utilization, which will require more beans and hence greater risk of infection.

Scraping out and adding just those scrapings, whether "sanitized" or not, seems wiser.
 
this advice seems unsound for a couple reasons. First, there's no reason to add the hulls since the flavor is inside, so you're just increasing your risk of infection. Second, by not scraping out the guts, you'll be getting poor utilization, which will require more beans and hence greater risk of infection.

Scraping out and adding just those scrapings, whether "sanitized" or not, seems wiser.

Sounds like you've never used real vanilla beans before. Every recipe I've seen, that uses an actual bean, has you split, scrape, then add the caviar AND pod to the recipe. There's a good amount of benefit from adding the split pod to the batch.

I've even seen where people take previously used split pods, save them, and use them in something else. Like making vanilla sugar. There you simply place a [dried if previously used] pod into a container of regular white sugar and let the flavors infuse it over time. I probably wouldn't do that for a pod used for a beer (when dropped in) but you can for other things.
 
Golddiggie said:
...There's a good amount of benefit from adding the split pod to the batch...
good to know, thanks. If there's that much flavor in the pods, then perhaps scraping the guts, cutting up the pods, then soaking everything in vodka makes a lot of sense. That'll be my plan next time. But I also wonder if heating up (like in 180f water) for a few minutes might even work better, since the heat would help get the oils out and sanitize too.
 
good to know, thanks. If there's that much flavor in the pods, then perhaps scraping the guts, cutting up the pods, then soaking everything in vodka makes a lot of sense. That'll be my plan next time. But I also wonder if heating up (like in 180f water) for a few minutes might even work better, since the heat would help get the oils out and sanitize too.

I've had about 2oz of split, scraped, chopped vanilla pods (and caviar) soaking in a pint mason jar, filled with Skyy vodka. They've been in there for just over 6 months now, and is slated to go to small bottles soon (either this week, or after my move next week). Basically, I'm making my own vanilla extract. The benefits here include actually knowing what pods were used in the making of the extract.

I wouldn't heat them up before adding to a brew (especially water). IMO, IF you're going to soak them in anything, make it a tiny amount of very clean vodka. That way you won't get any other flavors in the brew. Unless you actually want other alcohol flavors added to the brew.

I'm seriously thinking about placing a few pods into a 14% mead I've had going since December (2011). The mead, when I last checked on it, was very light in flavor (from the honey). Adding a few pods could turn it into something much better.
 
Would you put a uncleaned stick in your beer Denny? How is a vanilla bean different? You are solid wrong here.

I don't understand the lack of care when it comes to these things. I'm not over-zealous, it's just common sense here.

All I can tell you is that I've done it a dozen or more times with vanilla beans alone and never had a problem. I put chanterelle mushrooms in a beer. I picked them from the woods behind my house and all I did was brush the dirt off and chopped them on an unsanitized cutting board. They were in the beer for 3 weeks and the beer itself was around fro 5 months. When I served it at NHC, Randy Mosher liked it do much he brought Mike McDole and Mitch Steele by to taste it. And that wasn't the first time I've done that. I understand your point and I used to think the same way. Then I tried it and over and over again it's worked for me. I can only give advice based on my own experience and that's my experience. So I guess the answer is that yes, I would put a stick into fermented beer!
 
Update & a question.


First, I hit the vanilla beans with vodka despite the pending war over it (I crack me up). I also drank the vodka afterward (wow!).

Second, two weeks in the fermenter has given me a SG of 1.020 from 1.062. I'm not seeing any activity but the recipe I used called for another week in the primary and two more in a secondary. Does that make sense or will I hover around 1.020 forever? Will racking it into the secondary get it moving again? Do I hit it with more yeast? Should I sacrifice a small mammal to the brew gods? If so, what kind of mammal?

In other news, it tasted good. Here's the recipe below. I welcome any advice or criticism of it.

Thanks for all the help so far.


Mocha Porter (not mine, can't give me credit or blame... Shamefully, lost the creator's name)


9# Amber LME
12 oz. Flaked Oats
1# Chocolate Malt
8 oz. Black Patent Malt
12 oz Crystal 60

1.5 oz Bullion (60 min)
.5 oz Williamette (30 min)
.5 oz Williamette (5 min)

1.5 cup cocoa powder (10 min)
2 vanilla beans in primary

Or 1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale


OG: 1.062

Soaked vanilla beans in vodka to sanitize.

Muslin bag broke because I went too big. Use strainer twice with a fermenter bucket. After the final drop into the fermenter I strained again but lost some of the cocoa.

Initial plan is three weeks in primary. Look up racking to second. 4 weeks in bottle.
 
when i used vanilla beans in my last brew I split and scraped as described above, then soaked in vodka, also mentioned.

I used a sanitized 4 oz mason jar and used just enough vodka to keep them wet. When it came time to add them I used a sanitized rubber spatula and scraped the entire contents of the jar into the fermentation vessel.

Just my 2 cents for next time: Pour the beans AND vodka into your vessel. Any vanilla you tasted when you drank the vodka could have been in the beer.

I had no residual vodka flavor from the <1oz of vodka I used to steep the beans.

Happy Brewing!
 
I should've dumped the vodka in?

Ugh. Well, at least that mistake tasted good.

Thanks for the tip. Next time I shall show restraint.
 
I should've dumped the vodka in?

Ugh. Well, at least that mistake tasted good.

Thanks for the tip. Next time I shall show restraint.


i wouldn't say you made a mistake, I'm not trying to get into your bizzzness, I was just offering up something to try next time if you don't get the vanilla flavor you're after.

That's a lesson learned on my part because i've had the vanilla infused vodka before and later thought, "Dang, I wish my stout had as much flavor".

Happy Brewing!
 
I wasn't complaining. I'm so new at this I'm just glad the first few worked out.

I appreciate any advice thrown this way.

So thanks.
 
I'm still somewhat of a greenhorn, having only been doing this about a year. Enjoy your brew and, if you don't already, take good brew day notes so you can look back at what you did if you ever have issues...
 
Update & a question.


First, I hit the vanilla beans with vodka despite the pending war over it (I crack me up). I also drank the vodka afterward (wow!).

Second, two weeks in the fermenter has given me a SG of 1.020 from 1.062. I'm not seeing any activity but the recipe I used called for another week in the primary and two more in a secondary. Does that make sense or will I hover around 1.020 forever? Will racking it into the secondary get it moving again? Do I hit it with more yeast? Should I sacrifice a small mammal to the brew gods? If so, what kind of mammal?

In other news, it tasted good. Here's the recipe below. I welcome any advice or criticism of it.

Thanks for all the help so far.


Mocha Porter (not mine, can't give me credit or blame... Shamefully, lost the creator's name)


9# Amber LME
12 oz. Flaked Oats
1# Chocolate Malt
8 oz. Black Patent Malt
12 oz Crystal 60

1.5 oz Bullion (60 min)
.5 oz Williamette (30 min)
.5 oz Williamette (5 min)

1.5 cup cocoa powder (10 min)
2 vanilla beans in primary

Or 1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale


OG: 1.062

Soaked vanilla beans in vodka to sanitize.

Muslin bag broke because I went too big. Use strainer twice with a fermenter bucket. After the final drop into the fermenter I strained again but lost some of the cocoa.

Initial plan is three weeks in primary. Look up racking to second. 4 weeks in bottle.

With 9# of Amber LME plus oats plus crystal, I think 1.020 is all the fermentation you are going to get unless you toss some Brett or Beano in there (don't do it). Amber Extract usually has very poor fermentablity. I wouldn't worry about it. In a porter like this I don't think it will be a problem. Was this originally an all-grain recipe that you converted? In my experience it's pretty rare to add flaked grain without at least doing a mini-mash using another grain with some diastatic power like 2-row.

Also, put me in the camp that says Vanilla beans work well scraped and soaked in Vodka for a week or so before going into the fermenter (vodka or bourbon included). I don't doubt that Denny didn't have any infection issues, but I bet the utilization of the beans would have been better had he made an extract first. The vodka taste/smell is completely hidden in the beer, but the vanilla comes through well once it is carbonated. Don't be worried if it is very hard to detect in the Vanilla in the flat beer.
 
I bet the utilization of the beans would have been better had he made an extract first. The vodka taste/smell is completely hidden in the beer, but the vanilla comes through well once it is carbonated. Don't be worried if it is very hard to detect in the Vanilla in the flat beer.

You'd lose that bet. Ya know, it isn't like I haven't tried soaking them in vodka. I've done it both ways and made my decision based on a comparison, which is something that it doesn't sound like anyone here has done. I could detect the heat of the vodka in the beer and I just didn't care for it. In addition, it did nothing to intensify the vanilla flavor.
 
You'd lose that bet. Ya know, it isn't like I haven't tried soaking them in vodka. I've done it both ways and made my decision based on a comparison, which is something that it doesn't sound like anyone here has done. I could detect the heat of the vodka in the beer and I just didn't care for it. In addition, it did nothing to intensify the vanilla flavor.

I'll do the comparison Denny. I doubt it will make a difference, but since I've got 2 fermenters of your elixer almost finished fermenting, I'll do the side-by-side.

BTW, I made it exactly per spec, brown malt, EKG, etc. Only diff is that I used S-05 for the yeast.

I've got a jar of plump beans from Beanilla. I'll soak 2 of them in vodka for 3 days for fermentor #1, and pitch 2 un-extracted beans in fermentor #2.

I'm excited to be making this beer. Thanks.
 
Thanks for taking the challenge! I look forward to hearing your results. remember, do a blind triangle tasting.

You got it. I'll solicit my crazy neighbor and my brewpub owner friend.

I had a taste today from the hydro. Mmmm. 1.073 to 1.024 @ 60F. I've raised the temp to 70F and I think I can get another 4 or 6 points out of it during the next week.

I'm going to soak the bean in bourbon since I'll be buying bourbon . So, I'll just be comparing the vanilla extraction with, and without, prior ethanol extraction.
 
You'd lose that bet. Ya know, it isn't like I haven't tried soaking them in vodka. I've done it both ways and made my decision based on a comparison, which is something that it doesn't sound like anyone here has done. I could detect the heat of the vodka in the beer and I just didn't care for it. In addition, it did nothing to intensify the vanilla flavor.

Hey Denny,

If you've already done the experiment, then I take it back. I would have expected the lower ABV of the beer to have less efficient extraction of flavor compounds than the high ABV vodka. Furthermore, it's far easier to periodically agitate the vodka/bean mixture than it is the entire fermenter without ill effects. I would have imagined that the beans would be quickly covered by yeast in suspension or sink to the bottom and end up buried in the yeast cake reducing their contact with the beer. Mosher and Strong also advocate the vodka extraction method, but given that your name deserves mention along with theirs this carries quite a bit less weight than it might for someone else.

Did you try full scale or just drops in a sample? I could definitely detect the vodka in the sample (and certainly in the jar full of vodka and beans), but not in the carbed beer after adding the mixture to a week or so before bottling and kegging. Did you add the vodka mix to directly to the keg? If so is it possible that in the fermenter any hot alcohols can gas off, but in the keg they remain trapped? The vodka isn't even enough to move the dial on ABV. I used probably about 60 ml (about two shots) of vodka for 22 liters of beer which is only adding 24 ml of alcohol to a container that already has 1.32 liters of alcohol in it, essentially a rounding error.

-Anthony
 
Hey Denny,

If you've already done the experiment, then I take it back. I would have expected the lower ABV of the beer to have less efficient extraction of flavor compounds than the high ABV vodka. Furthermore, it's far easier to periodically agitate the vodka/bean mixture than it is the entire fermenter without ill effects. I would have imagined that the beans would be quickly covered by yeast in suspension or sink to the bottom and end up buried in the yeast cake reducing their contact with the beer. Mosher and Strong also advocate the vodka extraction method, but given that your name deserves mention along with theirs this carries quite a bit less weight than it might for someone else.

Did you try full scale or just drops in a sample? I could definitely detect the vodka in the sample (and certainly in the jar full of vodka and beans), but not in the carbed beer after adding the mixture to a week or so before bottling and kegging. Did you add the vodka mix to directly to the keg? If so is it possible that in the fermenter any hot alcohols can gas off, but in the keg they remain trapped? The vodka isn't even enough to move the dial on ABV. I used probably about 60 ml (about two shots) of vodka for 22 liters of beer which is only adding 24 ml of alcohol to a container that already has 1.32 liters of alcohol in it, essentially a rounding error.

-Anthony

I added the vodka/vanilla bean mixture to a secondary fermenter and racked the beer onto it. I'd have to check my notes to see how much vodka I used, assuming I even wrote it down! But I know that there was no more vanilla flavor and aroma than when I didn't use vodka and I could definitely detect it in the beer.
 
That doesn't sound like a good idea.

Real vanilla is one of the most commonly used flavorings in baking. It holds up very well at most baking temperatures. A few minutes in the boil will not harm it in any way and just might help in extracting the most from the beans and the pod.

? bosco
 
Just brewed the Vanilla Porter I was talking about, sanitized, split, scraped and tossed the pod of 1 bean into the primary. I'll sample after a week in the fermenter and see if that gives me the flavor I want. I'm also fermenting it open for what it's worth.
 
Real vanilla is one of the most commonly used flavorings in baking. It holds up very well at most baking temperatures. A few minutes in the boil will not harm it in any way and just might help in extracting the most from the beans and the pod.

? bosco

I was more concerned with the CO2 scrubbing the vanilla flavor out of the wort during active fermentation. I.e., same reason we add dry hops after fermentation is finished. This concern is based on intuition, not experience.
 
I was more concerned with the CO2 scrubbing the vanilla flavor out of the wort during active fermentation. I.e., same reason we add dry hops after fermentation is finished. This concern is based on intuition, not experience.

I've had the experience and agree with you. Some flavor remains, although at reduced levels compared to adding to secondary. Aroma is pretty much scrubbed.
 
I used vanilla in a Chocolate Oatmeal Porter I constructed a few weeks back. Decided to buy 2 beans, and toss them in secondary.

I split, scraped, and chopped up the bean, put it in a dish and used some bourbon to meld it all together. The caviar from the bean was sticky and all over the place, the fluid made it a bit easier to wrangle and get all in the container.

I didn't have much in there, but dumped it all in the beer after 2.5 weeks in primary.

I have a nice subtle, but CLEAN vanilla finish to the beer that keeps it balanced.

1352BE9D-E936-42B9-95F1-147677CC2C46-5131-000009D6226D3F6A.jpg
 
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