First Belgian- suggestions?

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tedclev

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I am about to brew my first Big Belgian and am just looking for any suggestions. I have done a few high gravs, but am wondering what input everyone has. I am interested in anything, from mashing/boiling, to yeast pitching and fermenting, to bottling and aging. I already have these ingredients, so this is def what I'm making, but feel free to give recipe advice too.

I am planning on mashing for 90 min, then boiling for 60. I have read different recommendations as far as the Candi Sugar. Last ten minutes or after fermentation has begun? Why wait until it's fermenting? Thanks in advance!

malt & fermentables
% LB OZ Malt or Fermentable ppg °L
47% 6 0 Briess GOLD LME 34 5
23% 3 0 Briess DME Golden Light 43 5
16% 2 0 Belgian Candy Sugar Amber 36 75
4% 0 8 CaraVienne 35 21
3% 0 6 Cara-Pils/Dextrine 33 2
3% 0 6 Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L 35 10
2% 0 5 Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L 34 40
2% 0 4 Belgian Special B 30 220
0% 0 1 Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L 33 120
Batch size: 5.0 gallons


Original Gravity
1.093
(1.083 to 1.097)
Final Gravity
1.020
(1.018 to 1.022)
Color
24° SRM / 47° EBC
(Brown to Dark Brown)
Mash Efficiency
85%

hops
use time oz variety form aa
boil 60 mins 1.0 Styrian Goldings info pellet 5.4
boil 30 mins 0.5 Willamette info pellet 5.5
boil 5 mins 0.5 Willamette info pellet 5.5
Boil: 3.0 avg gallons for 60 minutes


Bitterness
12.0 IBU / 5 HBU
ƒ: Tinseth
BU:GU
0.13

yeast
White Labs Trappist Ale (WLP500)
ale yeast in liquid form with low to medium flocculation


Alcohol
9.7% ABV / 8% ABW
Calories
305 per 12 oz.

misc
use time amount ingredient
boil 10 min 1 tbsp Yeast Nutrient
 
Way too many malts in there. Keep it simple. If you are going for a strong dubbel or something, I would do something like this:
9 lbs DME
1 lb Special B
0.5 lb Aromatic
and maybe 0.5 lb Caramunich

There is no need to mud it up with 6 different malts.

Also, your IBUs are a little low for such a high gravity beer. I am not sure the standard range but go for at least 20.

And for a beer this big, I would suggest making a low gravity Belgian (a blonde or belgian pale ale or something) and then use it's yeast cake. That way it will ferment out very easily.
 
Yeah- I know this grain bill is rather absurd, but it's a pseudo-emulation of Avery's The Reverend. That's also the reason for the low IBUs- The Rev stats are as follows:
Beer Style: Belgian Quadrupel Ale
Hop Variety: Styrian Goldings
Malt Variety: Two-row barley, cara 8, cara 20, caramel 15L, caramel 40L, Belgian special B
OG: 1.093 * ABV: 10.0% * IBUs: 10

You are right about the standard IBU range, though. I believe the BJCP puts it around 22...
 
Avery can get away with that low of IBUs cuz they have over 80% attenuation. With nearly 2lbs of crystal malt and using mostly extract, you unfortunately won't. since you'll have extra sweetness to account for, id bump it up to at least 20 like bk said
 
Go get yourself a copy of Brew Like a Monk. I just finished it and am preparing to read it a second time. I bottled a Belgian Golden Strong a few weeks ago and feel like I got lucky. There are a LOT of things to keep in mind when shooting for a Belgian style beer. There's even some stuff in there about extract and why it's challenging to get the attenuation necessary to dry it out properly. I believe Brew Strong also did a good few episodes on high grav brewing and Belgians.

Not trying to discourage you. Go for it if that's what you want to shoot for. But it's a challenging realm to get into.

+1 on simple grain bills.

Also, I introduced my sugars in two batches while fermentation had begun.
 
Thanks all. I'll def up the IBUs and see what happens here. Will also get the book since I am really interested in getting into Belgians. Will also shoot for the simple grain bill. JetSmooth- when did you introduce the sugars? Process? Thanks.
 
Add sugar to fermenter once the krausen begins to subside so that yeast has plenty of time to work through the maltose. Adding lots of sugar to high gravity beer early runs the risk of having your yeast work through the sugar first and leaving lots of unfermented maltose behind.

Also, recommend fermenting at lower end of temp range and gradually raising temp during first 10 days or so of fermentation. That will help accentuate the Belgian yeast character in the beer.
 
Keep in mind this batch was asplit eight gallon final batch, but because of the additional sugars (and extra "sampling" due to two fermenters and long fermentation) the wort going in was off. I got lucky and nailed the final volume at bottling. :)

Collected 7.5 gallons of wort and split into two corny kegs of 3.75 gallons each sitting in a cooler of water with t-shirts draped and fan blowing.

9/4 13:00 - OG (grain only) 1.0529. Yeast pitched 76F - t-shirts draped over
9/5 18:65 - add ice bottles until reached 61F
9/5 20:45 - fermenter strip indicates 61F. Remove ice bottles and t-shirt to allow ferm temp to ramp back into the 70s.
9/8 18:00 - (101 hours into "first fermentation") SG reached 1.010 and 1.014. Boiled 16 oz. candi sugar rocks into 16 oz of water, cooled and poured 8 oz. into each. Shook. Temp 78F
(somewhere in here I cycled the space heater for about 20 minutes to get the heat up around 82)
9/10 21:30 - ("second fermentation" of candi sugar took 48 hours) Wyeast 1388 reached 1.009. Wyeast 1762 reached 1.008. Tremendous peach and cinnamon in 1388 fermenter. 1762 banana esters replaced with warm peach and apricot. Boiled 16 oz of dextrose into 16 ounces of water, cooled, added 8 oz to each fermenter and shook.
9/11 21:00 - ("third fermentation" took 24 hours) 1388 reached 1.010. 1762 reached 1.010. Somewhat cidery and sour smelling, but this could be the Co2 blanket. Nearly passed out after sticking nose in too far for a sniff. ;)
9/14 time unknown - Checked gravity on both. Now at 1.008.
10/23 (SEVEN weeks in primary) gravity reading was a dry 1.004. Bottled each batch separately with 3.3oz each of sucrose. Collected just under 4 gallons from 1762 and just over 4 gallons from 1388.

To figure the ABV, I basically plugged the recipe (sans sugars) into Brewtarget and my observed OG with only grain was just about spot on what the software told me. I then added the sugars to the setup, because you can count on getting 100% of the sugars from sugar. That gave me my OG of 1.069.
 
When adding sugar after fermentation, how do I go about determining the ABV?

where you add sugar doesn't change how you determine the abv. just calculate like you added it at the start. dont forget to boil the sugar before adding if you're adding during fermentation
 
Wayy too much going on in the malts, keep it simple.


Add sugar to the boil as the hop utilization is calculated based on the gravity of the wort, which includes sugar.




Been covered before>
http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=94139


Great quote from babalu87:

"IMNSHO feeding is something brought about by poor fermentation practices (IE improper yeast pitches/lack of aeration)"
 
Wayy too much going on in the malts, keep it simple.


Add sugar to the boil as the hop utilization is calculated based on the gravity of the wort, which includes sugar.




Been covered before>
http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=94139


Great quote from babalu87:

"IMNSHO feeding is something brought about by poor fermentation practices (IE improper yeast pitches/lack of aeration)"

I still feed mine because I subscribe to the notion that the yeast will "opt" to break down the more complex sugars last, and may (I said "may") lose their ability to do so after a few generations of munching on simple sugars. In Brew Like a Monk, that is mentioned once and sort of dismissively, but until I see more data on that, it's a concern for me.

Plus, it gives me something to do with the beer while it's undergoing a long fermenting/conditioning period. Sorta like a pet.
 
simple malt bill (pilsen and sugar primarily + special B or caramunich to color if needed...maybe oats or wheat to get crazy with it)

incremental sugar additions

good yeast managements

increase temperature after high krausen to encourage attenuation
 
I still feed mine because I subscribe to the notion that the yeast will "opt" to break down the more complex sugars last, and may (I said "may") lose their ability to do so after a few generations of munching on simple sugars. In Brew Like a Monk, that is mentioned once and sort of dismissively, but until I see more data on that, it's a concern for me..

I add to boil like every Belgian brewery I've visited does:)
 
If I may ask a few questions:

1 how do you calculate hop utilization then?
2 have you ever done a test yourself bewteen the two methods?

<snip> but until I see more data on that, it's a concern for me..

Instead of waiting for data why not get real first hand data yourself?


2 batchs -
1 with sugar in boil
1 with sugar in fermentor
Have a group of friends over and see if anybody can taste the difference, Final gravity is easy enough to test.

Its odd people keep doing the same habits based on old practices when in this case its easy enough to test.
Just sayin:mug:
 
If I may ask a few questions:

1 how do you calculate hop utilization then?
2 have you ever done a test yourself bewteen the two methods?



Instead of waiting for data why not get real first hand data yourself?


2 batchs -
1 with sugar in boil
1 with sugar in fermentor
Have a group of friends over and see if anybody can taste the difference, Final gravity is easy enough to test.

Its odd people keep doing the same habits based on old practices when in this case its easy enough to test.
Just sayin:mug:

I know for a fact that I get better attenuation when I add the sugar incrementally and raise the fermentation temp. One of my theories as that you have a healthier overall population of yeast as the initial ferment is less "powerfull" since the sugar isn't their so you have a nice modest gravity ferment and the chances of underpitching are reduced.

With the belgian strains i believe over time they have been conditioned to chew up dextrose/sugars as their preference over maltose, so that is another reason that I do it this way. Let the yeast go for the maltose first, then increase the temp and get that entire yeast population back in suspension with increased metabolism feeding on sugar and some residual maltose in a higher temp environment.

I have had belgian strains poop out on me early in big beers when the starting gravity was quite high...the incremental additions help ease this issue.
 
I know for a fact that I get better attenuation when I add the sugar incrementally and raise the fermentation temp. <snip>
I have had belgian strains poop out on me early in big beers when the starting gravity was quite high...the incremental additions help ease this issue.

Let me ask how many Belgian style beers have you brewed?
total number?
how many with sugar in boil?
how many sugar in fermentor?

what was percentage of grain to sugar?
My high gravity w/suagr average 14-17% and never have attenuation problems, when I read that the first thought is mash temps.
 
Let me ask how many Belgian stayle beers have you brewed?
total number?
how many with sugar in boil?
how many sugar in fermentor?

what was percentage of grain to sugar?
My high gravity w/suagr average 14-17% and never have attenuation problems, when I read the first thought is mash temps.

7 total beers
2 with sugar in the boil
5 with incremental
never more than %15 sugar

The incremental ones have always finished drier than the boil added counterparts.
 
I am about to brew my first Big Belgian and am just looking for any suggestions. I have done a few high gravs, but am wondering what input everyone has. I am interested in anything, from mashing/boiling, to yeast pitching and fermenting, to bottling and aging. I already have these ingredients, so this is def what I'm making, but feel free to give recipe advice too.

I am planning on mashing for 90 min, then boiling for 60. I have read different recommendations as far as the Candi Sugar. Last ten minutes or after fermentation has begun? Why wait until it's fermenting? Thanks in advance!

malt & fermentables
% LB OZ Malt or Fermentable ppg °L
47% 6 0 Briess GOLD LME 34 5
23% 3 0 Briess DME Golden Light 43 5
16% 2 0 Belgian Candy Sugar Amber 36 75
4% 0 8 CaraVienne 35 21
3% 0 6 Cara-Pils/Dextrine 33 2
3% 0 6 Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L 35 10
2% 0 5 Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L 34 40
2% 0 4 Belgian Special B 30 220
0% 0 1 Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L 33 120
Batch size: 5.0 gallons


Original Gravity
1.093
(1.083 to 1.097)
Final Gravity
1.020
(1.018 to 1.022)
Color
24° SRM / 47° EBC
(Brown to Dark Brown)
Mash Efficiency
85%

hops
use time oz variety form aa
boil 60 mins 1.0 Styrian Goldings info pellet 5.4
boil 30 mins 0.5 Willamette info pellet 5.5
boil 5 mins 0.5 Willamette info pellet 5.5
Boil: 3.0 avg gallons for 60 minutes


Bitterness
12.0 IBU / 5 HBU
ƒ: Tinseth
BU:GU
0.13

yeast
White Labs Trappist Ale (WLP500)
ale yeast in liquid form with low to medium flocculation


Alcohol
9.7% ABV / 8% ABW
Calories
305 per 12 oz.

misc
use time amount ingredient
boil 10 min 1 tbsp Yeast Nutrient

Does anyone else cringe at the cost of all that DME!? ....Jebus wept thats alot of powdered wort!
 
Ok so out of 7 you feel you understand yeast & brewing?:drunk:

Little advice, keep an open mind and always question the "statu quo".
Do your own test using basic standards & controls.


Take a number






.

7 belgian beers with sugar, 50 brews total.........

Thanks for the advice. I just know what works for me and give my advice based on that......after 50 batches I do think I know a little about yeast and brewing, but sure have a lot to learn as do all of us. No need to start nitpicking me, your advice is good and I have listened to you in the past...so thanks.
 
If I may ask a few questions:

1 how do you calculate hop utilization then?
2 have you ever done a test yourself bewteen the two methods?



Instead of waiting for data why not get real first hand data yourself?


2 batchs -
1 with sugar in boil
1 with sugar in fermentor
Have a group of friends over and see if anybody can taste the difference, Final gravity is easy enough to test.

Its odd people keep doing the same habits based on old practices when in this case its easy enough to test.
Just sayin:mug:
1. I don't. I'm not going for repeatability yet; just noodling around until I find what works for me.
2. I haven't. This is my first Belgian. I may take your suggestion and go "all in" with the next one.

I'm not at a point where I'm brewing frequently enough to do two batches close enough to compare and not have conditioning time be a factor. But I agree it would be an interesting experiment.

This is beer, it ain't religion. Even the monks are open to different methods. That's sort of the spirit of Belgian beers.

Just saying. :D
 
Just thought I'd point out that Jamil Zainasheff recommends feeding simple sugar to fermenter rather than to boil for strong Belgian brews.

Jamil has certainly brewed a lot of beer and experimented extensively, moreover he just finished writing a book all about yeast with White Lab's owner Chris White. Just saying.....
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Just thought I'd point out that Jamil Zainasheff recommends feeding simple sugar to fermenter rather than to boil for strong Belgian brews.

Jamil has certainly brewed a lot of beer and experimented extensively, moreover he just finished writing a book all about yeast with White Lab's owner Chris White. Just saying.....

Yup. That's why I don't sweat the opinion of someone on an Interweb forum. I've read more pro-feeding than anti-feeding information when it comes to homebrewing. Big-production is a different animal IMHO.

No offense meant, of course.
 
where you add sugar doesn't change how you determine the abv. just calculate like you added it at the start. dont forget to boil the sugar before adding if you're adding during fermentation

Yeah- I base my ABV on hydro readings, and I just brewed this beer. I am going to feed the boiled candy sugars- one pound after the krausen dies down and one pound when I rack to secondary. I will, of course, be taking hydro readings when I do this. My question is- how do I do the calculations? It isn't just an easy OG-FG...

BTW- with a 90 min mash of the grains at 145 deg, and a wort volume just under 5 gallons (to allow for the candy sugar addition later), my OG came out to be 1.095- a damn good bit higher than I was expecting... I was expecting that sort of gravity WITH the 2 lbs of candy sugar. Also, I made a 2pint starter for this batch and aerated the crap out of it.
 
Candi sugar is 36ppg, so if your OG was 1.095, with the sugar it'll be (36*2 + 95*5)/ 5.5 (assuming the new volume is 5.5 gallons, change accordingly). No need to complicate things with hydro readings
 
Okay, just to follow up on all of this... I made a mistake calculating OG (I was maybe enjoying a bit too much homebrew while brewing)... The actual OG was 1.077, which brings it to 1.091 after the sugar for 5 gallons. As I have also read and heard far more supporting pro-feeding, I fed the sugars over two increments: After five days fermenting in primary, SG was 1.0165 and I boiled 3 cups water and one pound of the candi sugar- cooled and added to fermenter; also raised temp to about 72F. Nine days later, racked to 2ndary with the 2nd pound of sugar and maintained high temp. Three weeks later, bottled with 7oz priming sugar (to get extra carbonation, but not enough to have bottle bombs). FG was 1.0165. Thanks for all the input. I am waiting at least 3 months before I pop the top on one of these, but I can tell you that it tasted great at bottling time.... And I bought Brew Like a Monk...
 
Just following up on this. Still have a few bottles of this left that I've been drinking on. Soooooooo good. Complex dark fruit and definite tart cherry flavors. Pretty good clone, and excellent beer to drink. Gonna do another batch of this, except AG. I know that the grain bill seemed absurdly complex, and for that I completely agree. However, sometimes it does work out well.
 
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